EVE General Discussion

I dunno. I fail to see what the 'benefit' would be for an established corp/player to join such a govnement/union, that's why I asked. It's not about how things are organised or what form of governence it takes. There are very simple questions - will joining such a government/community in HS bring me more iskies than I can make in HS by working independently, or with existing networks? If not, why would I join? Wouldn't it be too easy to crush such a government by hiring HS mercs? How do you plan to 'defend' your HS space from mercs on a pay roll to destroy what you are doing?

It's very simple. You need to provide benefits while also having force of your own. Nothing I've read so far suggest you can provide ISK, or have force prepared to defend whatever system you 'claim'.

I'm not totally against the idea, but when someone starts talking about claiming systems or laying down rules or whatever, I expect there to be at least substantial ISK or force (preferably both) backing your vision. Other wise it's all just word games innit?

I wasn't going to reply again so quickly, but the point of force and security is too important to wait for a later update.

Security is provided largely by game mechanics and the efficiency of suicide ganking. This Government would not be a single corp or alliance, therefore there is no war declaration options for an aggressor. As all of this takes place in hisec, an aggressor would need to suicide gank individual pilots. In addition, there is nothing that specifically denotes members of Government in-game (as they do not belong to a specific corp or alliance). Therefore any kind of sustained military effort against our Government would require an aggressor to have a significant intelligence structure (to identify Government targets) and an efficient non-pain-in-the-ass way to suicide gank them constantly. My prevailing theory is that the Government will be Master of the Suicide Gank, supported by a bureaucracy and infrastructure.

Tl;dr: Attacking Government will be a pain in the ass, both logistically and in terms of gameplay interest. The security of our Government would be based in this simple fact: It is too hard and too boring to bother attacking us.

Couldn't we just war dec every single corp in your system? Or is this 'government' going to be like a chat channel for people in NPC corps? :p

If you meant this to me:

-I have no idea what Im doing. Im making this up as I go along. But faking it till you make it, can work.
-Plus learning by doing. I cant know till Ive tried it.
-So far Im just looking into it, for which your post is very informative and welcome I need to do a lot more research.
-Choosing which island, will be crucial.
-I got a bit of a boner at the thought. Feltgooodman. Dont kill my budding fantasy just yet!
-Actively start identifying who is who in the island, and connected to whom, insofar as having interests in the island.
-Initially either working with, or WDing denizens of the island.
-Diplomacy/shared goals with the strong, and start eliminating the weakest targets, one by one.
-Destroying POCOs/placed installations and replacing with ours with favorable rates to associates.
-I impairing non-aligned logistics in/out and within the island.
-Ganking their PvE/mining ships.
-Efforts to wrestle local station trading from island denizens and prevent introduction of their goods into it.
-Make tentative proposals to potential traders/financiers, that we are interested in creating a HS island tradehub to service the surrounding LS entities and our own organisation. And that we may be able to offer safe transport of materials to and from.it.
-Incentivizing island Corp members to join us instead as the islands clear and dedicated rising star and future, plus benefits if they can AWOX a Corp to leave our island.
-Providing intel on the islands denizens to neighboring LS Corps, so they can more effectively engage them enroute through their space (whch also helps find allies for the future expansion of interest into neighboring LS), thus making our consolidation easier and making LS very happy.
-Providing intel on non-aligned PvE/mining operations in the island to LS entities, making their task of ganking them far easier. Thus removing them from us as an impediment, and providing the LS gankers with their sport and hopefully profit.We will be able to offer support, as we will have them WDed too.
-Providing safe/privileged access for LS neighbour mutually interested Corps to use our island, especially for trade in the kinds of goods LS needs, so they dont have to travel back into HS proper.
-Present clear goals and a vision to recruit Corps/pilots from EVE whom find our island project attractive.
-Motivate island residents to pack up and go somewhere else, or join us, by all means necessary.
-Once the island is consolidated, prosperous and stable, start projecting control through the systems chain back to HS.
-Once that is consolidated, prosperous and stable, start projecting control through the system chain to NS.
-If we can achieve all that, we will have HS, LS and NS interests breathing down our necks in all directions, but hopefully also commensurately large entities from any of of those spaces impressed by our achievements and willing to cut a deal for mutual benefit.


Thats about as much as Ive got atm.

Dietrich Roosevelt, if I may ask the question - have you ever been involved in the execution of a suicide gank? You talk about the efficiency of suicide ganks in highsec, and yes, they can be very efficient. They are quick, they are cheap and they pay for themselves ... for some few specific targets. Those targets being anti-tanked freighters, industrials and mining barges that will drop expensive stuff when destroyed.

As it currently stands, you will need about 70 give or take cheap T1 destroyers to suicide gank a freighter. That's 70 people working together to kill one ship, and about 150-ish million ISK lost on the attackers side. And this is only possible because freighters are very slow, and can be kept from just warping away by bumping them with a battleship.

On a smaller ship this wouldn't work. You'd need much fewer ships, or it would take too long to get everyone in position and ready to fire. So, you would need to use much more expensive cruisers or even battlecruisers. And while a freighter may have half a million effective hitpoints, a appropriately fit T3 cruiser can about match that, with just T2 modules, while being a lot smaller and more nimble. You can't just scramble it, because that would pull CONCORD on grid, and even if you manage to gank a ship like that, it may not even come close to covering the cost of the gank. So, ganking may be "efficient" for some soft targets, but it gets way harder for most that don't fall into that category.

So, your police force may be completely ineffective against your average criminal, unless he's flying a freighter, and even if they manage to gank him somehow, it will be rather expensive.

Which brings me to the next point. Where does the money come from? Surely a reasonable fee to use your navigation network won't cover your expenses, and reasonable it needs to be, because as a member of a proper wormhole corp, you get such information for free, or you can just roll your own highsec wormholes if you need them. You say you want to give out rewards for finding wormhole routes, for example. You will have to finance your ganking squad somehow, because as I pointed out above, it will not be able to sustain itself unless all your criminals are squishy loot pinatas. How do you intend to go about that?

And I do disagree: Attacking your organisation will not be any harder than attacking about anything else, especially if you concentrate on a very small area. Declare war on some of your members, sit in the systems your government supposedly operates in and wait. You will have to react one way or another, or your loyal subjects will just get driven away. Of course, the government officials will not be attackable directly when they are sitting in a station or don't even log on while doing their administrative stuff, but that's not where it hurts anyway. Attacking the members and whatever your organisation may have in space however will hurt, and if you have no way to effectively prevent that, why would anyone want to be a part of your scheme?

Getting information would be easy as well. Just get a character registered, and gain access to your services. So, a potential evildoer will easily be able to figure out which wormhole routes your members use for instance, and camp accordingly. Sure, it may be difficult to find out details on who manages which wallet, but that doesn't really matter anyway. In the real world, if you wanted to do damage to a state, you could assassinate its leadership, making it unable to act, at least for a while. That's why there are bodyguards and bulletproof cars and all those fancy things. In Eve, you could shoot a member of the government, and he'd just respawn and keep governing. So, it would be much more effective to shoot the subjects instead. And if the government doesn't protect its subjects, there won't be any left before long, and without subjects, the whole thing will fall apart.

Is this what you yourself have experienced when working with me? Or is this just hearsay you are reciting from people who are hellbent on getting others to ignore me?

Can you go into detail about how I profited? If anything I lost out from all my ventures. Firstly I lost a good 7/8 billion in ships trying to protect people who came to Stain for the venture and by giving them free ships to fight with. Then I lost around 15 billion in a corp theft by someone who came down for the venture. From my perspective I am running at a 20 billion loss, I have no idea why you say it can be speculated that I made profit....

I'm a little disappointed that you portray me as someone to be aware of, you have set a negative tone to this and nothing has even happened yet.

I even talked about helping with some of your goals.....Did you hear any isk being mentioned? I do this for the sci fi experience, to make friends and have fun, that is the only real profit I'd like to make.

I don't think anyone is talking about replacing it, just ignoring it as usual. I do agree though that this is a lot of fantasy and circle-pleasuring though, we agree on that for sure.

Ok fair enough then.

I would say it is important to ensure the right people are involved in this, part of my failure was getting involved with people who were not interested in any "government" type of venture where cooperation was key to survival and prosperity. Lots of people only pretended to agree.

I would say give this a try if something does get organised, the fact that this is in hi sec and not in NPC null sec makes a huge difference, this should be considerably easier than what I have been trying.

Maybe we will talk when something gets set up.

If I ever attempt this experiment:

-It will be based on enlightened self-interest of all parties involved, and ruthless aggression in all forms against those that arent.
Ideological premises are well and fine, but might is always right, and its very hard to argue with profit, conquest and success.
-Its crucial to have an "us" vs "them" mentality to limit in-fighting and politique. Aggression is to always be directed outwards.
-Inorder to direct that aggression outwards, it is the job of leadership to set achievable goals/targets, with rational/equitable justification, and provide organisation/support to the effort.
-Even a smaller force, can project far more influence than the sum of its parts, by means of psychological aggression. I dont mean sending abusive messages. I mean demonstrating a solidarity and persistence in a unified purpose that exceeds the enemies own.
-You dont need to destroy the enemy to its last man, you just need to demoralize them to give up the fight and move, or fragment. That is victory.
-Diplomacy is a function of understanding the interests, strengths and weaknesses of everyone around you, and exploiting them.
It is misunderstood as a gentleman arrangement. It is not. Its just a pretence and formality that can be dispensed with by force and influence.
-Everyone, everywhere, has their own motives and interests. There is always leverage to be accrued and applied to these.
-Most people have grudges against others. These too are cause for mutual action against antagonists. Especially in fragmented systems. The enemy of my enemy, is my friend.


TLDR: My island proposition is based on realpolitik, which I have surmised is the underlying system beneath all ideological pretenses. I can, and will, work with or against both ideolog and pragmatist Corps. Makes no difference to me, in terms of what they want and I want as opportunity for cooperation, or what they dont want and I want, resulting in their elimination.

There is no stopping the realpolitik train. I also think this is the basis that underlies all of the existing great powers in EVE.

This thread needs to be moved to the Summit, where all the rest of the furries reside.