EVE General Discussion

What if some entity challenges this claim?


Elected representatives I get, but what exactly do you mean by corporate representatives? Where do they come from and how are they supposed to be chosen? Are you thinking of a sort of federal system where every "member state" sends its own representatives?


What exactly do you imagine when you talk about "limiting fraud and scams"? How would that banking system work? I mean, would people deposit and debit money to and from a bank account? Why? Would there be interest? Where would that money come from? Who would have access to those accounts to manage deposits and payouts? How would you make sure the people in charge of those accounts don't just take everything and run once their personal critical mass has been reached? Every man has his price, right? And when you have full access to several active bank accounts, I can imagine this price is reached fairly quickly.


Licenses to do what exactly? It's nice to think about what happens if somebody does something without a license or to use licenses as an incentive to respect the law, but why exactly would I want one of your licenses again? I know CODE. sell mining permits in "their" space. Is that along the lines of what you are imagining?


When you say "gank", do you mean suicide gank? I'm asking because suicide ganking a properly tanked ship can be very difficult and very expensive, and in some cases near impossible. It wouldn't be much of a police force if your criminals can freely roam around in brick-tanked T3 cruisers, right? And whoever is involved in a suicide gank will take a significant hit to security status that may sooner or later result in that person getting chased about by NPC faction police, making it hard for your police officer to actually operate in your territory. Or are you thinking more along the lines of having your police force declare war on the offender? This would mean that all the officers need to be in a separate corp, and they'd have to declare war on the offenders corporation. I could imagine that some Highsec Mercenaries are already drooling just thinking about all those free war targets that they don't even have to go and track down, because they are supposed to be coming to them.

I'm not asking for the finer details here. Of course, they are for the legislators to figure out. You surely have a rough idea, though, don't you?

OP writes like Aaron and wants to put a layer of bureaucracy, with another layer of oversight, on top of existing corp/alliance mechanics.
As if running a corp isn't enough of a space job.
Basically: more people in the organisation doing admin in order to reap the wealth (?) of hisec.
"Everyone has been saying that hisec and the four Empires are dying. This simply formalizes that process"
...by setting up an artificial home in the broken egg? Hatching and flying never occurs to people?

Shares have purpose now!

--Gadget

OP is one of those people who likes to talk a lot, creates rules for others to follow and loves to discuss how rule 17 paragraph 18 clashes with rule 78-4. Lots of talking but not actual action or capability. As stated earlier it's the wrong type of person to lead anything at all, just as with all career politicians.

Actually, I know. Have something people want, and don't allow them to have it if they misbehave. Being ruled by a government needs to come with benefits, otherwise people won't accept it. Think of a big nullsec coalition for example. The member alliances will want space to live in and to rule over, the member corps will want to have moon mining POSes and funding, the line members will want to rat and mine and they want a ship replacement program. The industrial minded will want reaction POSes and a safe place to build their capital ships. All of them want to reach all these things quickly and easily through a jump bridge network. If a pilot or corp doesn't behave, warn them. If they still misbehave, maybe restrict their ratting rights, reject reimbursement requests, take away their moon mining POS. If they still misbehave, give them the boot. So, for actually existing governments in the game (and like I said: they *do* exist), it's usually the carrot, and not the stick.

A government in hisec may not be able to provide as much as it could in nullsec. Yes it can "claim" space for it's members to live in, but its subjects could also just live there anyway, and it wouldn't have a good way to prevent others from living there as well, exploiting their subjects precious resources. They could provide POSes, Citadels and Engineering Complexes, but judging by the number of those structures we see in hisec, it appears people are perfectly capable of building them without a complicated government. It could provide SRP, and in fact, some hisec corps do. But that requires money one would need to have first.

Frankly, I think OP is approaching this from the wrong end. Think about how and why governments form in the real world: There's a stretch of land where people live. As long as there are just very few people, they won't need a government. They'll all do their thing, maybe trade or fight every now and then, but there's no structure or system to it. But then there are more people, and some structure is required. Families form tribes, then villages, then leagues and finally states. Each of those steps is a form of government. In a single family, maybe the strongest adult male will set the agenda. In a tribe, maybe it's the elder, an elected or inherited chieftain, a medicine man, .... Then you have a town mayor and a town council, a bailiff or sheriff, and in the end you see kings and presidents and ministers and parliaments and all that kind of complicated ****. So, there are people there first, and they form and refine a government. Not the other way around.

It's no different in Eve. A 5 man corp may not even need a government, but once the corp grows, they will probably feel the need to start organizing things. It will get difficult to make decisions with 50 people talking at once, so someone may take the role of a proper leader. Maybe they will also find a fleet commander and somebody who knows thei stuff when it comes to industry, or diplomacy. And at some point they may have 2000 members and all sorts of allies alongside a region of nullsec space or two, and if they managed to reach that point, they probably have all kinds of capable people that form a sort of government.

Then, you'd probably want to keep your government as lean as possible, so it doesn't take half a year to make a decision. You really don't need a cabinet with 10 ministers and two houses of parliament with 20 people each, when all you rule over is 500 people that don't even have the same number of concerns, problems and interests that most people in the real world do. (I mean, they do, but immigration, global warming and health care really don't matter much in Eve)

OP simply doesn't have anything or anyone to govern yet, and goes straight for the government. I think you can't start with a ridiculously complicated government, if you don't even have people that could fill all the necessary positions, not to mention people this government could rule over. And if you approach the issue from the government end, you will most likely also have no idea what your government will even need to be able to do. If you start from the people end, you will know because there will be people there that do stuff, and they will let you know what they need. And once you know what they need, you can make it happen. And once you can make that happen, you can take it away if they don't behave. This approach also makes the question whether it should be a constitutional monarchy or parliamentary democracy or something entirely different fairly easy: Whatever works for this paricular group in that particular situation is best. Turns out, in Eve it's straight up autocracy for the most part, because it's simple and efficient, and its downsides really don't matter in Eve. "Bad" autocrats cannot shut their people in, silence opposition or keep subversive influences away, so they will fail quickly. People will usually stick with the "good" autocrats of their own free will, and the community will grow and thrive.

So, if OP really wanted to form a government in Eve, the correct path to that would be to make a corp. However, many people have this idea, and many newbies among them. And most of them fail. Some fail spectacularly, but most just fail completely unnoticed by more than the 5 people they managed to recruit. So, actually, I'd say just join a corp, see how they do things and get involved. If your ideas are good, they will be heard, and if you have a talent of some sorts and give it some effort, they will thankfully put you in a position of responsibility.

Hi.

I'm interested in your 'government' thing, what benefits do I get if I join?

I'm stupid and all I want to know are two things

1) What's in it for me to 'join' or put myself under this umbrella of your 'government'?

2) What 'bad things' will happen to me if I do not join your government or follow your rules?

If you can clearly answer 1 & 2, your discussion may go somewhere. If not, then what's the point of this 'government'?

OP:

Technically the bicameranl parliamentary system you propose is not a direct true democracy as you outlined in a previous post. It is a representational democracy. Also, I think bicameral is not especially efficient for your purposes. It creates a lot of back-and-forth. Start with one. Another can be co sidered once the first no longer represents the interests of large entities.

Rather than trying ro build such an organisational structure from the ground up, I would propose it would be more efficient to do it top down.

Meaning establish a consolidated empire with a nascent structure suitable to transition into the system you propose, once it has the organisation and resources to do so. You will need strong leadership and unified goals to establish a powerbase. Once that is done, the organisation can consider transitioning its leadership to empower its constituents

-Engage in aggressive consolidation of a strategic specific sector of HS of all its resources, alongside allies.
-Engage in proactive politics/diplomacy, offering incentives/support to allies, and an ultimatum to antagonists.
-Start forming directorships of dedicated corps, which will in future congeal into the departments/ministries of state, such as police, military, finance, foreign and internal, production etc.

I think your idea may have more success on a HS island from which you can extend outwards into LS.

Ruthlessly usurp/dominate the island through force/diplomacy, consolidate, then start expanding your control along lines back to HS.from the relative safety of your island stronghold.

---

I dont think your gov model will work in EVE.

---

But I am getting a bit of a boner thinking about consolidating a HS island and extending outwards.

Im sure its been tried before, and I dont know how powerful entities may already own HS islands as proxies, or how organised the resistance from LS in the vicinity might be, but Im liking the idea.

Im gonna start doing a little looking into HS islands. I think taking them over should be potentially manageable by force and diplomacy, as long as some NS super entity doesnt start pumping alts into it. Local denizens are probably mostly carebears (or atleast alts which operate as carebears and wont care who runs the island as long as they are treated fairly and can profit.)

I think the adjoining LS systems also might be amicable to diplomacy/mutual benefit, and fragmented enough to divide and conquer.

Im intrigued! Feelsgoodman!

OP, this is the sort of dude you most definitely want on board. He clearly understands the need for players to work cooperatively. If a blue community is formed then PVP ops could involve a group of us blues going to help out Salvos protect his island. Sounds like pretty cool content, don't you think?

Please outline how you own ONE hisec system.
The usual thing for people who live in a lowsec area is to do their thing, smash the weak and any tourists, either blue or join larger more powerful groups as they come and go. Look at alliance history of some of these bads and see how they just get absorbed by the local might within weeks of their arrival. There's no contention, if they get uppity they get their pocos and towers slammed by more caps than they have friends to call and their money is over with.
But the hisec system, how to: stop me going in, docking, PVEing. Surely i could ignore your ownership, because it's in no way real and your ownership doesn't allow you to upgrade the system. How to defend against my Skiff mining "your" roids, my battleship arriving in "your" mission to finish it off and salvage for you, my covops arriving in "your" data/relic. Won't CONCORD defend me if you should get upset and make a bad decision?

TLDR: really need some detail here, yeah ultimate adventure wow much original hype hype hype, but HOW?

Many points have been made, some of them good. I'll attempt to address those as best as possible.

I imagine this government to exist in a single location initially, probably a carefully chosen HS system. I like the post/concept proposed regarding a HS island, but I feel like an island can be too easily strangled by malevolent non-HS entities. The key to operating in HS efficiently is the ability to suicide-gank undesirables while maintaining a quick and efficient method of recovering the standing hits resulting from those ganks. I believe a carefully organized and managed system (indeed, a bureaucracy) could allow for an efficient method of doing this.

In our modern world, bureaucracies are much maligned. Everyone envisions long lines at the DMV or complicated contracts no one can understand. However, it should be remembered that the advent of bureaucracy transformed the world. Britains carefully coordinated Naval Board allowed them to field a Navy that dominated the world for well over a century. Bureaucracy is good, when carefully managed.

Really, the point of this government is to permit such a system to flourish and have purpose. Big complex things that a few individuals cant be arsed to do can be coordinated among hundreds of players and made manageable. I'll provide an example in an immediate subsequent post, with regards to a Navigation Network concept. Consider this idea a sample of what kinds of concepts I'm discussing, that are only possible with a government like I'm describing.

With regards to the nature of the government itself, I'd like to stress that it doesnt have to be namby-pamby and overly friendly. I'm not proposing the Federation of Planets, where everyone joins out of goodwill. There likely would be blood spilt, systems taken away from people and a loss of freedoms for some involved. If our government were to take a system and declare certain laws within it, people would need to follow or be forcibly evicted. If this seems contradictory to what I have said previously, perhaps I was not clear enough (or you did not understand clearly). Like I've said, all of this is up for debate.