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Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2016-12-02 20:31:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Also, you think you don't pay CCP, because they aren't doing a good job. Ok, that would be fair enough if it was true. Yet, you do actually pay someone else (not in dollars, but still) to pay CCP for you. So, CCP still make money off of you. Even more, because PLEX are more expensive than a sub. So, in practice, you take a detour, but you still pay CCP while persuading yourself and others into believing that you don't.

In the end, that probably works well for you, because apparently, 1.2 billion ISK don't have a value attached for you personally. And that's okay, but that doesn't mean they aren't worth anything. Hey, if you hated the game and CCP, you could probably sell that ISK on ebay for 5 bucks or so. It would get you banned, but hey, at least you didn't technically pay a bunch of pixels worth 5 bucks to play a game you don't like anyway.
Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
#42 - 2016-12-02 20:41:22 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Galaxy Duck wrote:

Ahh, he doesn't like CCP and has an axe to grind... Now I get it.


OP, you do realize that CCP makes even more money off you when you PLEX your account than when you subscribe, right?


It's not that I don't like CCP. It's that I don't feel they do a good enough job on the product they are selling to warrant my money. I play this game for no monetary cost. Time I have spare and that's why I play video games in the first place, to waste time.


I'll ask again:

OP, you do realize that CCP makes even more money off you when you PLEX your account than when you subscribe, right?
Demonspawn 666
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2016-12-02 20:50:37 UTC
Mehhhhh!

Just wasted 10 minutes of my life reading this.

That 10 minutes is time wasted that I shall never see again, my life is a finite resource, and all finite resources have value.

I could have been making a cup of tea and having some hobnobs instead of reading this!

10 minutes with tea & Hobnobs = Priceless!

The Dirty Rejects are recruiting!
Come play with me...... I like being played with!

TDR Recruitment
u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
#44 - 2016-12-02 20:54:21 UTC
Demonspawn 666 wrote:
Mehhhhh!

Just wasted 10 minutes of my life reading this.

That 10 minutes is time wasted that I shall never see again, my life is a finite resource, and all finite resources have value.

I could have been making a cup of tea and having some hobnobs instead of reading this!

10 minutes with tea & Hobnobs = Priceless!


But I thought that's what GD is for Big smile Wasting some time, having an argument, even if I am not right, and I am wrong 90% of the time, but I am having fun nevertheless. Weird...maybe I have too much FREE time Roll
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#45 - 2016-12-02 22:12:23 UTC
Galaxy Duck wrote:
[
I'll ask again:

OP, you do realize that CCP makes even more money off you when you PLEX your account than when you subscribe, right?


Not from my bank account they don't. I understand completely what you are saying, I don't do it from a wanting to punish them standpoint I do it from a not wanting to pay for a shoddy product. You do understand that concept don't you? Not wanting to pay for something you don't feel is up to standards?

Not today spaghetti.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#46 - 2016-12-02 22:13:10 UTC
Demonspawn 666 wrote:
Mehhhhh!

Just wasted 10 minutes of my life reading this.

That 10 minutes is time wasted that I shall never see again, my life is a finite resource, and all finite resources have value.

I could have been making a cup of tea and having some hobnobs instead of reading this!

10 minutes with tea & Hobnobs = Priceless!


I'm not the one who started in with the opportunity cost bullshit.

Not today spaghetti.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2016-12-02 22:27:52 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Galaxy Duck wrote:
[
I'll ask again:

OP, you do realize that CCP makes even more money off you when you PLEX your account than when you subscribe, right?


Not from my bank account they don't. I understand completely what you are saying, I don't do it from a wanting to punish them standpoint I do it from a not wanting to pay for a shoddy product. You do understand that concept don't you? Not wanting to pay for something you don't feel is up to standards?

There was something else I wanted to ask from a slightly different angle: Do I understand correctly that the game is worth your free time that I assume you use for entertainment, but at the same time not worth paying for it yourself?

Does it just occupy the time that you for some reason can't engage in something you would pay for?
Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
#48 - 2016-12-02 22:37:29 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Galaxy Duck wrote:
[
I'll ask again:

OP, you do realize that CCP makes even more money off you when you PLEX your account than when you subscribe, right?


Not from my bank account they don't. I understand completely what you are saying, I don't do it from a wanting to punish them standpoint I do it from a not wanting to pay for a shoddy product. You do understand that concept don't you? Not wanting to pay for something you don't feel is up to standards?


Which, if you can't tell from how you type, makes it appear as you are punishing and/or out smarting CCP. And he's not wrong. You are a person who drives the PLEX market. Meaning, that if you help contribute more money than you think by being active in the economy. You may not spend the $20 yourself, but someone has. That comes from the opportunity costs you have given playing the game enough to buy that item. You are still ensuring that CCP gets the money
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2016-12-02 22:41:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Marconi
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
Even if you got a billion just for logging in once a month you wouldn't play for free if you used that billion to buy a PLEX. You could have used that billion to buy something else. Saying a PLEX bought from the spoils of one month of AFK ratting is "free" is the same as saying that Carriers are free. If Carriers are free, why doesn't everybody have some, just for ***** and giggles?

If you give something (no matter what or how you got it) to get something, that something is not free. You could argue that Eve is not very expensive. That would be very subjective but hard to refute. But when you say it's free, you are mistaken.


People in this game convolute opportunity cost to justify spending their RL money on pixels worse than any other game I've played. At least when someone buys skins in real free to play games they don't have to try to lie to themselves about it and just call it a waste of money on a hobby. In EVE you tryhards think you are going fool anyone else as bad as you fool yourself into believing dropping 200 bucks on PLEX is actually a proactive thing in your life so you don't spend 3 months grinding out a super. Ya right...

Actually the opportunity cost of PLEX grinding is quite high.

In the time you spend grinding a PLEX, you could be working a second job or studying.

Now the time you sent grinding over a few years is enough study time to substantially improve your education and your pay packet.

Now with Alpha clones you do not even have to stop playing to remain revenue neutral at the start and it gets to the point where it is cheaper from an opportunity cost perspective to drop that $200 (very quickly at $200 per 3 months) because your time is more valuable than that.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Loutro Fift
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#50 - 2016-12-02 22:42:15 UTC
Do you know how much time and money I have saved by not reading all of this thread?

I played EVE instead...
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#51 - 2016-12-02 22:53:13 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

There was something else I wanted to ask from a slightly different angle: Do I understand correctly that the game is worth your free time that I assume you use for entertainment, but at the same time not worth paying for it yourself?

Does it just occupy the time that you for some reason can't engage in something you would pay for?


The monetary value of something doesn't dictate its entertainment factor.

Not today spaghetti.
Loutro Fift
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#52 - 2016-12-02 22:59:16 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

There was something else I wanted to ask from a slightly different angle: Do I understand correctly that the game is worth your free time that I assume you use for entertainment, but at the same time not worth paying for it yourself?

Does it just occupy the time that you for some reason can't engage in something you would pay for?


The monetary value of something doesn't dictate its entertainment factor.


The monetary value of something dictates its EMOTIONAL entertainment factor. When sailing a million dollar yacht you're expectations of entertainment are far greater than when sailing a $50,000 yacht. Because your financial and emotional investment are far greater.

It's the emotional EXPECTATION that more spent will result in more enjoyment.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#53 - 2016-12-02 23:02:41 UTC
Cien Banchiere wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Galaxy Duck wrote:
[
I'll ask again:

OP, you do realize that CCP makes even more money off you when you PLEX your account than when you subscribe, right?


Not from my bank account they don't. I understand completely what you are saying, I don't do it from a wanting to punish them standpoint I do it from a not wanting to pay for a shoddy product. You do understand that concept don't you? Not wanting to pay for something you don't feel is up to standards?


Which, if you can't tell from how you type, makes it appear as you are punishing and/or out smarting CCP. And he's not wrong. You are a person who drives the PLEX market. Meaning, that if you help contribute more money than you think by being active in the economy. You may not spend the $20 yourself, but someone has. That comes from the opportunity costs you have given playing the game enough to buy that item. You are still ensuring that CCP gets the money


I'll say again, throw around the opportunity cost concept all you want but it's bullshit. I've explained how I make ISK and talked about the levels of crap the players in this game justify with the words opportunity cost. Not going to repeat myself anymore.

Last time I'll try to explain this concept to you forum warriors like myself... It's the same thing as a waiter/waitress coming to your table with a bad attitude and giving you bad service. Do you give them the standard 20% tip even though they couldn't give a rat's a$$ whether or not your food was warm or you had something to drink?

Not today spaghetti.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2016-12-02 23:15:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Estuary Algaert wrote:
OP, there is a difference between no net cost and free. You are the former, Alpha accounts are the latter. Continue enjoying your delusions.


https://lmgtfy.com/?q=definition+of+free

adverb
1.
without cost or payment.
"ladies were admitted free"
synonyms: without charge, free of charge, for nothing;


I stopped listening to dictionary definitions when they changed the meaning of 'literally' to mean 'figuratively'.

Instead, I'm going to take your elitism for what it is, and as far as I'm concerned, it's just as much an attitude problem as the entitlement that drives people to demand more free stuff. I can run a 6/10 a month and cover my plex if I want to, in less than an hour's grind, but instead of telling people they're bad because they can't, I'm going to go and show them how. Your "look at how amazing I am and how bad you are in comparison" attitude isn't just narcissism, it's also virtue signalling. But nobody really gives one seventeenth of a ****, sorry to say.

Even if we go by your definition, you're assuming the only currency is the currency itself. As you so delightfully showed us, though, that currency can be exchanged for time when you work, hence why you get paid X amount of money. The same applies for the game. Instead of currency, you exchange game time for more game time. If you know how, you can put in much less game time than you get out of it, but you are still putting in time. The cost is your time. Therefore, not free. Not even by the definition you provided.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#55 - 2016-12-02 23:26:05 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:


I stopped listening to dictionary definitions when they changed the meaning of 'literally' to mean 'figuratively'.

Instead, I'm going to take your elitism for what it is, and as far as I'm concerned, it's just as much an attitude problem as the entitlement that drives people to demand more free stuff. I can run a 6/10 a month and cover my plex if I want to, in less than an hour's grind, but instead of telling people they're bad because they can't, I'm going to go and show them how. Your "look at how amazing I am and how bad you are in comparison" attitude isn't just narcissism, it's also virtue signalling. But nobody really gives one seventeenth of a ****, sorry to say.

Even if we go by your definition, you're assuming the only currency is the currency itself. As you so delightfully showed us, though, that currency can be exchanged for time when you work, hence why you get paid X amount of money. The same applies for the game. Instead of currency, you exchange game time for more game time. If you know how, you can put in much less game time than you get out of it, but you are still putting in time. The cost is your time. Therefore, not free. Not even by the definition you provided.


I made this thread for juxtaposition of all the 'Free EVE is lame' posts. Didn't expect someone to take it so seriously to claim I was a narcissist, even though I probably am. Quality post though thanks for the words.

P.S. 'Eve has always been free' has much more curb appeal than 'You have always been able to play Eve for no monetary expenditure although there is an opportunity cost for doing so', nerd.

Not today spaghetti.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2016-12-02 23:51:17 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

There was something else I wanted to ask from a slightly different angle: Do I understand correctly that the game is worth your free time that I assume you use for entertainment, but at the same time not worth paying for it yourself?

Does it just occupy the time that you for some reason can't engage in something you would pay for?


The monetary value of something doesn't dictate its entertainment factor.
Never said it did, rather I'm asking the inverse: Does your enjoyment of something not contribute to the idea that it has a monetary value?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2016-12-02 23:54:16 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Estuary Algaert wrote:
OP, there is a difference between no net cost and free. You are the former, Alpha accounts are the latter. Continue enjoying your delusions.


https://lmgtfy.com/?q=definition+of+free

adverb
1.
without cost or payment.
"ladies were admitted free"
synonyms: without charge, free of charge, for nothing;


I stopped listening to dictionary definitions when they changed the meaning of 'literally' to mean 'figuratively'.
You don't really need to omit the definition in this case. Without cost is not the same as a cost paid by someone else. Nothing in that definition implies only a singular point of reference (oneself) instead of an actual representation of objective fact.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#58 - 2016-12-03 00:04:53 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Never said it did, rather I'm asking the inverse: Does your enjoyment of something not contribute to the idea that it has a monetary value?


I suppose it does but in that sense why pay for it if you don't have to?

Not today spaghetti.
Cien Banchiere
Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution
#59 - 2016-12-03 00:04:56 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Cien Banchiere wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Galaxy Duck wrote:
[
I'll ask again:

OP, you do realize that CCP makes even more money off you when you PLEX your account than when you subscribe, right?


Not from my bank account they don't. I understand completely what you are saying, I don't do it from a wanting to punish them standpoint I do it from a not wanting to pay for a shoddy product. You do understand that concept don't you? Not wanting to pay for something you don't feel is up to standards?


Which, if you can't tell from how you type, makes it appear as you are punishing and/or out smarting CCP. And he's not wrong. You are a person who drives the PLEX market. Meaning, that if you help contribute more money than you think by being active in the economy. You may not spend the $20 yourself, but someone has. That comes from the opportunity costs you have given playing the game enough to buy that item. You are still ensuring that CCP gets the money


I'll say again, throw around the opportunity cost concept all you want but it's bullshit. I've explained how I make ISK and talked about the levels of crap the players in this game justify with the words opportunity cost. Not going to repeat myself anymore.

Last time I'll try to explain this concept to you forum warriors like myself... It's the same thing as a waiter/waitress coming to your table with a bad attitude and giving you bad service. Do you give them the standard 20% tip even though they couldn't give a rat's a$$ whether or not your food was warm or you had something to drink?


They still got paid. It's also not mutually exclusive. You don't play for free. There is a time investment. Time, no matter what you think, time is in fact a commodity. You are giving your time to a game to play on someone else's dime. CCP may not have made $35, but they made a $20 off of someone, and you gave your time no matter how you want to look at it. By giving that time away you created, hold on for it, an opportunity for someone to sell you something. You gonna tell me minerals are free if you mine them next?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2016-12-03 00:12:32 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Never said it did, rather I'm asking the inverse: Does your enjoyment of something not contribute to the idea that it has a monetary value?


I suppose it does but in that sense why pay for it if you don't have to?
If you actually enjoy the activities you do to avoid that payment there is no reason. That said, that question doesn't really have anything to do with the claim you made that the game isn't worth paying for. It only addresses why some would chose not to while still conceding it has some value on a personal level.

I could pay more for some products than I do and still feel satisfied from a value proposition, but I most often don't when it's not required. For those that PLEX easily and could sub with similar ease the logic is similar.