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Against the Market Module on EC

First post
Author
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#1 - 2016-12-01 04:33:56 UTC
I wasn't quite sure where to put this, so I thought I'd just throw it out here and see how people see this as a general topic on game balance & CCP's planning/implementation.

I have said this many times before on MD and such, that allowing an EC, such as Azbel, to fit a market service module is not a good idea.

Many things can be said about it, but what it boils down to is that an Azbel fit with Market module will have same level of market functionality as Fortizar markets while having BETTER production bonuses.

On the flip side, a Fortizar can fit production module, so they can produce from still under development market hubs that emerged with Fortizar market introduction, but they have understandably/acceptably less bonus for production than EC.

From simple balance point of view of the concept, this does not make sense. An EC can have SAME level of market functionality as a Fortizar market, while having better production bonus. A Fortizar market has no advantage over an EC market, while having less bonus for production (if production module is fit).

I am aware that there are other factors that could help 'balance' things, the fact that a Fortizar has better defences, that they had a 'head start' to establish themselves as new player driven market hubs, etc.

There are also other factors in play such as system index. If an EC is anchored in a system and it becomes a one stop shop for production & trade hub, the more people it attracts to build and sell there the higher the index will become higher and the more costly it will be to build there - however, this does NOT create incentive to shift to a Fortizar market with production module, but rather, it gives incentives to move to another Azbel+Market with lower system index.

Basically, Fortizar market has no inherent advantage over an Azbel market, they function exactly the same and there are no 'bonuses' for having market modules in a Fortizar instead of on an Azbel.

From the beginning, so much has been talked about how Fortizar markets could offer exciting new opportunity for emergence of player driven new market hubs, and to some extent, some of the Fortizar/Keepstar market projects have been relatively successful (or at least encouraging so far).

But now this allowance of market module on an EC, such as Azbel, basically screws over Fortizar markets, for which people have already put in ISK & time to experiment and establish. Being able to build in the same structure with the maximum bonus and also being able to sell at the same structure on a level that is identical to a Fortizar market? How is that balanced? What incentive is there now to invest in a Fortizar market to be a hub, when you can invest in an Azbel market now which has more appeal to producers too?

IMHO, 'Fortizar has better defence' is not really a good balancing factor. We know from experience that no matter how much of a d1ck star one sets up his structure in space, whether you can defend it or lose it depends much more on the defence fleet than the structure setup itself. An Azbel defended by a proper defence fleet will outlast a Fortizar without a defence fleet any day, no matter how much more 'vulnerable' the structure itself is by game design. So it is a poor choice of a balancing factor when the defence plausibility depends more on the defence fleet than the structure itself (I'm not saying that's wrong - I like how you need to be able to defend your structure/in space asset with real pilots & ships, I'm just saying that the 'stats' of the structure itself is pretty meaningless when it comes to defence and as such not a good balancing factor).

For me personally, it is not a massive issue. I have 'sponsored' a few Fortizar markets around the New Eden, some of which are doing pretty well, but I do not 'own' any Fortizar markets under my name, so I'm flexible to move my activities to an Azbel market hub if that becomes the logical choice. But is this really what CCP wanted? That people first invest in Fortizar markets with the whole hype about player created/driven market hubs, only to abandon them and jump on to Azbel market hubs which offers the SAME market functionality on top of better bonuses for production?


This doesn't look right to me, and if it persists to be this way, it just becomes another bad precedent of players being used as guinea pigs on Tranqulity (not on Sisi) to test the water and then later something else comes out and just stomps over what people have invested in before - with no real compromise or choice, the new thing is just better in every meaningful way, and what has once been advertised as the new exciting vision becomes a legacy relics in space.

I have taken some break from EVE and especially from the forums since I had my last big whine here, so it's pity I had to be a serial whiner & post this as soon as I return to the game, but this just feels wrong to me. :p

What do other players think? Do other players feel that it's fine/acceptable to have the same market module at Azbel? What do the current Fortizar market owners/sponsors think now?




Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Doddy
Excidium.
#2 - 2016-12-01 04:47:50 UTC
The difference in vulnerability does in fact matter. The extended hours means there is a greater variety of times a defence fleet needs to be available while the lower hp means the likelihood of a reinforcement despite a defence fleets actions increases. And that is ignoring the firepower difference of the structure itself which varies depending on the sec.

Really though what would be the problem if fortizars were superseded as markets? They were designed from the start to be military corporate/alliance HQs, as CCP said from the start they will be superseded by specialised structures. Is it really just you are upset you speculated on fortizar markets not having competition?
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#3 - 2016-12-01 04:53:39 UTC
No as I said, I can cancel all my orders at my sponsored fortizars (for which I pay 0% broker fee anyway so 100 ISK loss per order which is nothing) and move to new Azbel hub, if that becomes a thing. And the broker fees I have saved has already paid for the fortizar cost together with the cut of the broker fees received, so it's not a loss for me (maybe except trouble of setting couriers to move some stuff). So no real personal agenda involved here. I'm genuinely questioning whether this is the right call to allow same market functionality on Azbel as Fortizars.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Toobo
Project Fruit House
#4 - 2016-12-01 05:01:43 UTC
In fact, I could make even more ISK by putting ISK into Azbel+Market if that 'supercedes' Fortizar markets as you say. So this is actually good ISK making opportunity for me personally, as I can get cut of the production cost on top of market fees, and Azbels are not so expensive so I could stand to gain from this.

But I do not endorse or criticise game changes based on whether I can make more ISK from it or not, but rather, is this really a goos thing for the game.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#5 - 2016-12-01 09:27:55 UTC
Also note that there is no bonus for citadel modules on an EC, so the market service alone is rather expensive to fuel.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#6 - 2016-12-01 09:51:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Engineering complexes are considerably squishier than Fortizars though.

And the Fortizars have teeth, I don't think the engineering complexes are nearly as scary.

Point being, I'd consider a Fortizar considerably less likely to explode and I think that's plenty trade-off.
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#7 - 2016-12-02 05:01:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Toobo
Fuel cost is trivial compared to broker fees you can earn from market hubs, if you have means to develop it into a market hub, so I don't think that's an issue.

But what Ralph said, considering it's coming from someone who actually does HS merc work, is quite interesting to me. I guess every contract would have different variables and such, but Ralph, if you don't mind asking - if all conditions were more or less the same (say, two structures owned by a same corp/alliance in a same system, one is a Fortizar and another one is an Azbel), would a high sec merc charge less for an assault on EC than on a fortizar, because it is an 'easier job'?

Well I guess not every contract can be so directly comparable because there will be many other variables depending on the target and such, but it would be an interesting opinion from a merc to know that HS EC will be cheaper to attack than a similar HS Fortizar, if I were to issue a contract. ;)

I'm still waiting to see Azbel market hubs to actually emerge in game and see how they work out, but if mercs were more willing to take on HS Azbels removal job than HS Fortizar removal at cheaper price then there is one possible option I can think of if I really don't like them and don't want to use them myself heh.

EDIT: Just to add, ISK per job is not a barrier on attacking a HS Fortizar at this point, it's just that there are so many of them already that if you wanted to snub all of them out you'd need investment in the region of.. erm.. what Lenny 'could' afford in the past. :p But as Azbel hubs will be a new thing, it could be possible/relatively affordable to snub the new ones out from the start.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#8 - 2016-12-02 09:41:58 UTC
Depends who the corp is to be honest,
Not speaking in an official capacity in any way here so don quote from this but,

There's usually only two major factors when talking citadel's, whom they belong to and when the timers are.

Who : determines what resistance will need to be overcome,
and citadel's are (on paper anyway) much better force multipliers than engineering complexes.

For instance, a citadel defender fleet of rooks,falcons or say erazu's is a big problem
unless you have an insulting amount of logi to hand because an astrahus or Fortizar Will kill stuff if the logi chain goes away.

I'm guessing the engineering complexes aren't going to be nearly as effective,
meaning the threshold for effective resistance changes ,
thus the same corps engineering complex might be harder to defend (easier to kill) if they can't form a more effective fleet.

Again though this is a guess, it may in reality not be that big of an effective gap so I can't say for sure, we haven't smacked one yet.

Toobo
Project Fruit House
#9 - 2016-12-02 11:08:38 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Depends who the corp is to be honest,
Not speaking in an official capacity in any way here so don quote from this but,

There's usually only two major factors when talking citadel's, whom they belong to and when the timers are.

Who : determines what resistance will need to be overcome,
and citadel's are (on paper anyway) much better force multipliers than engineering complexes.

For instance, a citadel defender fleet of rooks,falcons or say erazu's is a big problem
unless you have an insulting amount of logi to hand because an astrahus or Fortizar Will kill stuff if the logi chain goes away.

I'm guessing the engineering complexes aren't going to be nearly as effective,
meaning the threshold for effective resistance changes ,
thus the same corps engineering complex might be harder to defend (easier to kill) if they can't form a more effective fleet.

Again though this is a guess, it may in reality not be that big of an effective gap so I can't say for sure, we haven't smacked one yet.



Thanks for your input Ralph. Yeah I guess maybe I was making a too drastic comparison in my OP, as I was comparing an Azbel with a proper defence fleet for it vs. a Fortizar with no defence fleet. :p

For now I'm willing to see how things turn out to be, but I leave an option open to go on crusade against Azbel hubs if need be, in which case I may formally ask for merc services.

Thanks again for your input.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#10 - 2016-12-02 13:23:14 UTC
Any feedback related to the Engineering complexes should be posted here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=495425&find=unread

ISD Max Trix

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to EVE mails about forum moderation.