These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

War for Attackers

First post
Author
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2016-11-28 14:15:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Black Pedro wrote:
Structures though may be a better answer. Moving all the corporation benefits into the new structures (which only apply to players in the same corp as the structure), inherently solves the problem as structures cannot dodge a war. Players can flee a corp, but they will lose both the benefits provided by these structures, and possibly their assets as penalty for not defending. Risk vs. reward would be restored.

Yes, that. Want to set taxes or share wallets? Build a financial office in space, maybe as a module to a citadel. Want to share hangars? Build a citadel. Want to set roles and titles or award medals? Plug an administration module in your citadel. That way, making a corp that can do stuff is an investment, and if as a corp you have something other players don't you can lose it as well.

I think we are headed there anyway, but it will probably take another 10 years.
Lasisha Mishi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2016-11-28 14:35:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lasisha Mishi
Nina Hayes wrote:
It's also designed for pve so yea. That not everyone wants to play your way, with you, is your problem not theirs in the end, Maybe hand out candy? work on the ol personality? paint with oils, peeps will hang out with you more, might even let you shoot their little ships. dream big, thats the lesson here.

+1


also 4 hours? that would be a nightmare. you log on after sleeping 8 hours and boom. in a war......

24 hours gives people a full day, regardless of where they live, to see and prepare.(and if they don't want to. well the point of high sec is to give ways to avoid pvp in a policed space)

and with how some corps spam war decs at literally anything that moves(would not surprise me if they spam them at asteroids as well).......maybe we need more restrictions on it. like max 8 war decs at once(aka think before you pick a target)

that way you can't just spam a war dec at every freighter to jump jita.


if your so starved for pvp content. go to low sec in fw where pvp IS.
stop crying in high sec cause you want to kill the carebear who wont fight back.

high sec murder of carebears isn't really pvp. pvp implies them fighting back. not a 1 sided bully.


seriously whats with all these high sec gankers crying about how "high sec murders pvp". its supposed to. you go to low sec for pvp....that was the point of FW!
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#83 - 2016-11-28 14:40:33 UTC
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
maybe we need more restrictions on it. like max 8 war decs at once.

that way you can't just spam a war dec at every freighter to jump jita.

*Facedesk*
I swear to Bob I'm going to start a list of people who get this one arse backwards and star hunting them one by one.

You want less hubhumping degenerates, we need to make targeted , focused wars viable for the average corp.
Lasisha Mishi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2016-11-28 14:49:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lasisha Mishi
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
maybe we need more restrictions on it. like max 8 war decs at once.

that way you can't just spam a war dec at every freighter to jump jita.

*Facedesk*
I swear to Bob I'm going to start a list of people who get this one arse backwards and star hunting them one by one.

You want less hubhumping degenerates, we need to make targeted , focused wars viable for the average corp.

good, put me on the list

come at me in lowsec and discover actualy pvp.

you know, where your target FIGHTS BACK.
oh right, your scared to leave highsec and end up in a fight vs something that fights back. your as much a carebear as those highsec pve or highsec miners.



oh good for you, you killed a high sec carebear by war dec spamming everyone and then jumping him with all your friends

you must feel SOOO accomplished.


i feel more accomplishment fighting someone who fights back where they have a CHANCE of winning.

a guarenteed win over an opponent who really has no chance in hell........aka high sec ganking. is basically the same thing as high sec PvE

but a low sec fight vs an opponent who is also there to pvp, that is fun. will you win, will you die. every win shows actual skill or preparation cause you lived in a fight you could have lost(cause they were set for pvp as well).



THATS accomplishment.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#85 - 2016-11-28 14:51:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
maybe we need more restrictions on it. like max 8 war decs at once.

that way you can't just spam a war dec at every freighter to jump jita.

*Facedesk*
I swear to Bob I'm going to start a list of people who get this one arse backwards and star hunting them one by one.

You want less hubhumping degenerates, we need to make targeted , focused wars viable for the average corp.


Ralph understandable people would ask for this due to war dec spam, there is fault on both sides as in people having no reason to fight back against people who want execution style kills of easy targets, and this is the state of hisec at this point, it does not help that most new players are bypassing hisec now..., though the impact of them coming to hisec after being in 0.0 alliances might be interesting and change the environment, but will take time to manifest itself.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#86 - 2016-11-28 14:53:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
maybe we need more restrictions on it. like max 8 war decs at once.

that way you can't just spam a war dec at every freighter to jump jita.

*Facedesk*
I swear to Bob I'm going to start a list of people who get this one arse backwards and star hunting them one by one.

You want less hubhumping degenerates, we need to make targeted , focused wars viable for the average corp.

good, put me on the list

come at me in lowsec and discover actualy pvp.

you know, where your target FIGHTS BACK.
oh right, your scared to leave highsec and end up in a fight vs something that fights back. your as much a carebear as those highsec pve or highsec miners.



oh good for you, you killed a high sec carebear by war dec spamming everyone and then jumping him with all your friends

you must feel SOOO accomplished.


i feel more accomplishment fighting someone who fights back where they have a CHANCE of winning.

a guarenteed win over an opponent who really has no chance in hell........aka high sec ganking. is basically the same thing as high sec PvE

but a low sec fight vs an opponent who is also there to pvp, that is fun. will you win, will you die. every win shows actual skill or preparation cause you lived in a fight you could have lost(cause they were set for pvp as well).



THATS accomplishment.


Ralph is a good player and not a pipe and hub camper, we may have our differences in opinion him and I and he has an acerbic wit to boot, but he is someone who does play it right, he is one you should respect, I certainly do.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Lasisha Mishi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2016-11-28 15:03:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Lasisha Mishi
Dracvlad wrote:
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
maybe we need more restrictions on it. like max 8 war decs at once.

that way you can't just spam a war dec at every freighter to jump jita.

*Facedesk*
I swear to Bob I'm going to start a list of people who get this one arse backwards and star hunting them one by one.

You want less hubhumping degenerates, we need to make targeted , focused wars viable for the average corp.

good, put me on the list

come at me in lowsec and discover actualy pvp.

you know, where your target FIGHTS BACK.
oh right, your scared to leave highsec and end up in a fight vs something that fights back. your as much a carebear as those highsec pve or highsec miners.



oh good for you, you killed a high sec carebear by war dec spamming everyone and then jumping him with all your friends

you must feel SOOO accomplished.


i feel more accomplishment fighting someone who fights back where they have a CHANCE of winning.

a guarenteed win over an opponent who really has no chance in hell........aka high sec ganking. is basically the same thing as high sec PvE

but a low sec fight vs an opponent who is also there to pvp, that is fun. will you win, will you die. every win shows actual skill or preparation cause you lived in a fight you could have lost(cause they were set for pvp as well).



THATS accomplishment.


Ralph is a good player and not a pipe and hub camper, we may have our differences in opinion him and I and he has an acerbic wit to boot, but he is someone who does play it right, he is one you should respect, I certainly do.

maybe i should respect him, maybe not.

had he worded his reply in a different tone. maybe i would respect him.

but the way he replied just gives me the image of someone who sits on jita gate spamming war decs all day.
which annoys me because, when i was a highsec carebear(a title i still like), i stay'd in highsec cause i didn't want to be forced into pvp.

i went to lowsec when i decided i was ready for pvp and the choice of being able to choose when to get into pvp has helped my enjoyment of the game.


tis why i consider high sec pvp the same as carebear pve.
for all people's argument of "content creation", they forget the content they claim they make(or complain is being restricted by concord and such), exists in abundance in low and nullsec(aka majority of the systems in game).

and FW is the prime game mode set up for this. the thing CCP made for pvp. instead of complaining they could join FW and help create content where its wanted and needed.

caldari has alot of openings for a European timezone pvp core. but that potential pvp core is wasted by people who, isntead of joining FW and giving the European gallente FW core content. they instead sit in jita and annoy carebears

if people want to promote pvp, they can help the pvp game mode. instead of forcing it upon those who don't want it, and wont fight back.


hypothetically
if FW dies, its because the potential pvpers, isntead of pvping. sat in jita picking on those who don't fight back....like carebears. while claiming "pvp content creation".
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#88 - 2016-11-28 15:06:25 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
maybe we need more restrictions on it. like max 8 war decs at once.

that way you can't just spam a war dec at every freighter to jump jita.

*Facedesk*
I swear to Bob I'm going to start a list of people who get this one arse backwards and star hunting them one by one.

You want less hubhumping degenerates, we need to make targeted , focused wars viable for the average corp.


It's a bad solution but people would stop hubhumping if they were limited to 8 dec. What are they gonna hubhump for? 1 kill a day for the whole corp/alliance if lucky?

The real solution IMO is to make agent locator better so you can hunt and make the defender have a way to end the war (not with just ISK that would be utterly stupid).
Nomistrav
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2016-11-28 15:13:05 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
I'm pretty sure CCP's intention with war was that you are getting aggression Rights twords the corporation/alliance and not specifically the individuals.

Don't get me wrong I think it's a pain in the arse when a group you've been doing research on for a while just folds as soon as the Dec drops.
But that's an issue with how Corps function on a fundamental level.
Dec dodging as an entity is bad
But
Leaving a war as an individual is an absolute necessity.
you can take that "nope" option away from wars, specifically when talking about line members and new recruits.
On an individual basis one has to be able to leave the circumstances,
If you can't hack it in null you can leave
If you can't hack it in wormholes you can leave
If you can't hack it low you can leave
Highsec though?
You can't go anywhere else, you're left with dropping corp or logging off and the latter isn't a healthy thing for the game.

Yes corporation and alliance mechanics suck,
Yes I agree with you that it's far to easy to Dec dodg,
Yes you absolutely should have your fees refunded.
You can't lock the line members in though,
You could make an arrangement for the leadership though I.e. the CEO and directors.


On the other hand, I'd argue that while it is easy to Dec Dodge, it is quite easy to force a corporation in a perpetual war and force them to drop corp/log off. It's cheaper to declare war on small entities (50m ISK) than on large ones (500m ISK), so it incentivizes targeting corporations that are small and can't readily participate in a war on any reasonable means. Without that, the players are left with "git gud", which is strong-arm for, "Quit the game", when you consider that the surrender terms are up to the aggressor to accept.

Thus, the hard part is declaring the war, really. Once it is declared, you as the aggressor wait until the target corp folds or, worse yet, quits the game out of boredom.

IMO, before we offer another helping hand to aggressors, there needs to be clear win/loss conditions to prevent from corporations being in a state of war ad infinitum. Furthermore, there needs to be another look at why we're incentivizing larger, wealthier corporations attacking smaller, poorer corporations. Otherwise we'll just perpetuate a system of small entities not being able to really do much of anything unless they fold and join up with the aforementioned larger entities.

War shouldn't be fair, but war shouldn't make the game unfun either.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama

Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#90 - 2016-11-28 15:30:03 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:
Furthermore, there needs to be another look at why we're incentivizing larger, wealthier corporations attacking smaller, poorer corporations. Otherwise we'll just perpetuate a system of small entities not being able to really do much of anything unless they fold and join up with the aforementioned larger entities.

War shouldn't be fair, but war shouldn't make the game unfun either.


Some time ago I posted a suggestion for "Leveled Wardecs."
HS wars could create content for newbies, the only problem is that the attacker often shows up in so overwhelming force, the poor inexperienced carebears don't even try to fight back anymore. So content gets removed instead of created.
Since wardec fees are basically a bribe to concord to look the other way for a limited time, it would make sense to have various degrees of wardecs at escalating costs. Like, a level 1 wardec would be quite cheap, but limit the attacker's ships to frig sized hulls only. Each additional level of wardec would then unlock better ships for the attackers to use.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#91 - 2016-11-28 15:34:06 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
and you can't nuke their capital because at least so far as highsec mercs go they don't have such a thing

[citation needed]


Can you show me an example of at least one highsec merc group with any significant static assets in space?

Almost all of them own or have previously owned massive quantities of customs offices.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#92 - 2016-11-28 15:35:56 UTC
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
had he worded his reply in a different tone. maybe i would respect him.

but the way he replied just gives me the image of someone who sits on jita gate spamming war decs all day.
which annoys me because, when i was a highsec carebear(a title i still like), i stay'd in highsec cause i didn't want to be forced into pvp.

i went to lowsec when i decided i was ready for pvp and the choice of being able to choose when to get into pvp has helped my enjoyment of the game.


tis why i consider high sec pvp the same as carebear pve.
for all people's argument of "content creation", they forget the content they claim they make(or complain is being restricted by concord and such), exists in abundance in low and nullsec(aka majority of the systems in game).

and FW is the prime game mode set up for this. the thing CCP made for pvp. instead of complaining they could join FW and help create content where its wanted and needed.

caldari has alot of openings for a European timezone pvp core. but that potential pvp core is wasted by people who, isntead of joining FW and giving the European gallente FW core content. they instead sit in jita and annoy carebears

if people want to promote pvp, they can help the pvp game mode. instead of forcing it upon those who don't want it, and wont fight back.


hypothetically
if FW dies, its because the potential pvpers, isntead of pvping. sat in jita picking on those who don't fight back....like carebears. while claiming "pvp content creation".


He can be a bit terse, but his merc alliance actually hunted and did not pipe and hub camp.

A lot of people kill easy stuff, the pipe and hub campers kill lots of silly stuff, to me it is kinda meh, but I am told I don't get Eve.

One issue is that hardly anyone in hisec fights back, so its just wrack a mole perfect assassination time on mainly nullbears passing through to market, which is kinda sad so I understand where you are coming from.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#93 - 2016-11-28 15:40:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Nomistrav wrote:
yeah I'll agree with you on cost, and I said this earlier in the thread
Reverse cost scaling is something I'd like to see too.
The system is currently arse backwards

As for helping the aggressors, mate, aggressive targeted wars were gutted a few months ago.
Seriously 8 months ago there was a thriving and dynamic Mercenary scene with heaps of drama, infighting and shifting alliances,
Loads of choice for a client in terms of service.

Now there's only around 5 or 6, including us.
That's pretty much it.
The Devils Cousin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2016-11-28 17:03:29 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
The Devils Cousin wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I've already explained years ago what needs to happen. Right now, there's no reason to have a corp in high sec, and no reason to stay in one. That needs to change. Corporations need to become commitments that players have to make.


What so you can force people who PAY REAL MONEY to CCP to play as they please to play the game how you want?

1. High Sec PvP is not PVP, it is killing mission runners and miners 9/10 fights are ganks
2. You don't go to low/wh/null because you wouldn't last ten minutes
3. You're not a pvp pilot, you may get kills but you are a noob with boosts, end of story

No, the second CCP forces players to play as the griefer community wants them to, eve is done

High Sec doesn't need corps?

Yeh go ahead, do away with all high sec corps and watch the market crash hard

You sir are dumb as ****

shut up Evasive Shadow Assassin, your in no position to lecture anyone on pvp


Lol you noob i do more real pvp in a week than you do in a month, ive seen your killboard, your just a fool

I KILLS HIGH SEC PEEPS I R ELITE

No your a damn noob

CCP Please Don't Do This..

The Respawn Expansion

Nomistrav
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2016-11-28 17:05:24 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Nomistrav wrote:
yeah I'll agree with you on cost, and I said this earlier in the thread
Reverse cost scaling is something I'd like to see too.
The system is currently arse backwards

As for helping the aggressors, mate, aggressive targeted wars were gutted a few months ago.
Seriously 8 months ago there was a thriving and dynamic Mercenary scene with heaps of drama, infighting and shifting alliances,
Loads of choice for a client in terms of service.

Now there's only around 5 or 6, including us.
That's pretty much it.


You have my condolences, sincerely. However, the War Dec system is something that needs to be looked over as a whole for the betterment of Eve's community, not just the high-sec Mercenaries. As said, I'm all for helping aggressors get their space opera back, but not until it's fun to be the defender, for a start. Having played station games, avoidance, and alt-maining for some seven months now, I can decidedly say that Eve Online is no longer fun when I'm playing in a completely different area of space than my corp, or when my corp-mates refuse to log-on. And to that end, changing things in further favor of aggressors right now might be the final nail in the coffin for some. Myself included.

There's no long-term value in aiding the high-sec mercenary in the interim when he'll just run out of targets due to increasingly slated gameplay. Defenders need to a reason to not fold and re-corp before we add another bullet point to why they should.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama

The Devils Cousin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2016-11-28 17:10:34 UTC
There are no high sec mercs

people do not war deck for isk anymore, they go thru killboards and war dec everyone in sight

So stop sitting here calling yourselves mercs

Mercs take one contract and fulfill it

You are griefers, its that simple, your to cowardly to go to null/wh/low for fights because you cannot take your legion of alts and booster alts and because the most basic pvp in low sec is your better

CCP Please Don't Do This..

The Respawn Expansion

The Devils Cousin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2016-11-28 17:17:05 UTC
I also don't care how you respond to it

Any pilot who sits in Jita/Amarr/Dodixie/rens on the undocks waiting for newbs to undock or ganking mission runners and miners is not a pvp pilot

You may be doing what you refer to as "player vs player" but it is not, it is you attacking players, boosted to hell, legions of spy alts, killing people who CANNOT defend themselves and ganking every miner you see

Real pvp pilots LIKE MYSELF pvp in low/null, we attack pilots who are trying equally as hard to kill us, what we do is RISK VS REWARD

What you do is their risk of undocking vs your reward of looting their ships

You are not mercs

I am ex REAL MC. I flew under Selenee, you, are griefers, end of story

So stop calling yourself mercs

Oh and before you start the "show me where the bad man touched you bullshit"

Ive never died to a griefer because I am not stupid enough to join a corp in high sec

Your noobs, end of.

CCP Please Don't Do This..

The Respawn Expansion

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#98 - 2016-11-28 17:40:40 UTC
The Devils Cousin wrote:
I also don't care how you respond to it
...
Real pvp pilots LIKE MYSELF pvp in low/null, we attack pilots who are trying equally as hard to kill us, what we do is RISK VS REWARD

What you do is their risk of undocking vs your reward of looting their ships

You are not mercs

I am ex REAL MC. I flew under Selenee, you, are griefers, end of story
...
Ive never died to a griefer because I am not stupid enough to join a corp in high sec

Your noobs, end of.

People who yell the loudest, often have the last worth listening to.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#99 - 2016-11-28 17:49:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
The Devils Cousin wrote:
I am not stupid enough to join a corp in high sec

Except I've been at war with your main and all you did was talk smack.
And I've personally tried to catch your stabbed ass.
Get your head out of your arse,
Chest beat all you want about your "real" PvP but you're still just as toxic, bitter and irrelevant as you were then.

The rest of your rant isn't worth addressing,
applicable to some but not Devil's.
The Devils Cousin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2016-11-28 17:50:16 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
The Devils Cousin wrote:
I also don't care how you respond to it
...
Real pvp pilots LIKE MYSELF pvp in low/null, we attack pilots who are trying equally as hard to kill us, what we do is RISK VS REWARD

What you do is their risk of undocking vs your reward of looting their ships

You are not mercs

I am ex REAL MC. I flew under Selenee, you, are griefers, end of story
...
Ive never died to a griefer because I am not stupid enough to join a corp in high sec

Your noobs, end of.

People who yell the loudest, often have the last worth listening to.


People who try to make fun of others often have shallow minds and vindictive personality's.

Might want to think about that lad

CCP Please Don't Do This..

The Respawn Expansion