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Diana Kim: A Polite Request

Author
Nomistrav
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-11-27 03:51:17 UTC
I engineer this request not as a challenge, accusation, or criticism; I sincerely hope that you are not caught in an echo chamber, that there is some hope of diplomatic compromise. I believe that humans are not inherently evil, that these aspects are taught and learned. Thus, I present to you a request:

Diana Kim wrote:

And here we can witness the infamous Priano again. When people use logic, that show her or her acquaintances in unfavorable sight, she just call it 'neuroses'.


If it is true that your claims and statements are born of logic, than I politely wish to engage, not as an representative of the ILF or Intaki (whose people are known for diplomacy), but as a man of keen interest in compromise, in a debate of reason.

Diana Kim wrote:


3. Oh, Drifters are capabe of quite a lot of things, but so do we.

For example, we can ram stations with supercarriers. We can genocide whole colonies. We can torture prisoners of war. We can put prisoners of war in explosive cans. We can bombard homeworlds of other nations from the orbit. We can violate treaties. We can attack capital ships on low planetary orbit to drop them on heads of peoples. We can occupy homeworlds of neighbors and oppress them, neglecting any diplomatic attempts of them to recover it.

Can we do all this? Yes, we can. But do we do this? No. Gallente do.



While I show no loyalty toward either the State or the Federation, I'd like to bring to the table a reminder of the name of a State Hero: Tovil-Toba, who set in stone a legacy after the Hueromont Incident. It is not so easily forgotten, nor are the lives of the millions who were lost as a result, despite this man's list of recognized virtues.

Yet, later on you argue that "we are talking not about 'terrorism' of Templis Dragonaurs, who did nothing against the State or Empire, and whose terror act happened 200 years ago", disputing this as insignificant due to that action being wrought of past generations. In the same breath, you seem to bear an argument from ethos, ignoring so simply the significance of the Hueromont Incident as though it were inconsequential, but Admiral Noir's actions are despicable, and thus setting in stone a double-standard.

If to regard both the Hueromont Incident and that of Nouvelle Rouvenor - incidents caused by both a State Hero and 'terrorists', respectively - as too distant to be relevant, than I beg you the question: What is the statute of limitations as to when a spectacular and horrific event is relevant? With what confines must we accept actions as wholly representative of the nations, if we ignore their origins?

Diana Kim wrote:

I know they are the enemies of both Caldari State and Amarr Empire, ma'am. But at the same time - look at the map. You can see how many systems are occupied by Gallente Federation and Minmatar Republic.

Compared to that Drifter's presence is insignificant.



That feels suspiciously like an argument born of silence; how did you draw the assertion that the Drifter threat is 'insignificant' if not from a dangerous lack of evidence? We don't how far the Drifters' have extended their reach or the powers and technologies they utilize. They may be powerful, and they may be intent on harming the State, we simply do not know.

However, consider for a moment your words toward Sir Tuulinen, in which you stated that the desertion of the warzone is disloyal. I beg you to please answer as honestly as you can: Is a direct assault on the State, her people, and her assets not an act of war? If a Federation pilot were to destroy critical research that would benefit the State, would it not be considered an act of war? While I dare not assume, it can be reasonable to consider that your answer will most likely be yes. If such is the case, is it not then an act of war on behalf of the Drifters, who HAVE done this very act of violence? In such case, is Sir Tuulinen really deserting, or is he moving toward a conflict that the State is decidedly lacking in?

Diana Kim wrote:


But I know that the State is at war. I know that half of Black Rise and half of our Homeworld is still occupied. I know that billions are suffer under gallente occupation. I know that we lack ships and pilots to liberate our lands. I know that we need every damn pair of hands here, in the warzone, to fight the real enemy that kills Caldari, and not just waves big gun somewhere.


Diana Kim wrote:


They are Caldari, and I will die for them. But those, who just work on colonies, those who work in spaceships, they are all Caldari too. They are keep dying because of this war, because Gallente occupy systems and genocide colonists. Because they are fighting for their homes and protecting what they have earned with honest labor. Are they worse than CEO who sit in comfy chairs and manage numbers in spreadsheets? Everyone must do their part. And our job is defending citizens of Caldari State, will it be CEO, manager, dock worker or a MTAC operator. They are all Caldari. All of them.


I realize the source of your anger is fueled with the blood of your comrades and compatriots, but please heed my words when I say that every war has bloodshed on both sides. The war between the State and the Federation is a brutal one, and shows no signs of ever being quelled as the reasons and justifications have now only turned toward vengeance. Someone has to be the better; someone has to set aside the past and work to attain peace, or the casualties will never end. Ask yourself, is it not the responsibility and duty of the State, that if such an opportunity was afforded, that they take it for the greater good? If it would work to end the unnecessary dying of the State and her people, would it not then be preferable to abstain from violence?

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama

Nomistrav
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2016-11-27 03:53:06 UTC
I would also politely request that any third party who would observe this debate retain a sense of patience, calmness, and reason, no matter how heated it may turn-out or appear. For adding fuel to a fire makes an inferno, not embers.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#3 - 2016-11-27 09:05:56 UTC
Oh, that's too many questions at once, Mr. Nomistrav. Don't you think it would be better to make separate threads instead of pushing everything into same pile? But very well, since you are asking me personally, I'll consider it an honor to provide you with answers, and please excuse me in front if I miss any important point.

Nomistrav wrote:

While I show no loyalty toward either the State or the Federation, I'd like to bring to the table a reminder of the name of a State Hero: Tovil-Toba, who set in stone a legacy after the Hueromont Incident. It is not so easily forgotten, nor are the lives of the millions who were lost as a result, despite this man's list of recognized virtues.

Yet, later on you argue that "we are talking not about 'terrorism' of Templis Dragonaurs, who did nothing against the State or Empire, and whose terror act happened 200 years ago", disputing this as insignificant due to that action being wrought of past generations. In the same breath, you seem to bear an argument from ethos, ignoring so simply the significance of the Hueromont Incident as though it were inconsequential, but Admiral Noir's actions are despicable, and thus setting in stone a double-standard.

If to regard both the Hueromont Incident and that of Nouvelle Rouvenor - incidents caused by both a State Hero and 'terrorists', respectively - as too distant to be relevant, than I beg you the question: What is the statute of limitations as to when a spectacular and horrific event is relevant? With what confines must we accept actions as wholly representative of the nations, if we ignore their origins?

What Adm. Tovil-Toba did, he saved billions by killing millions. He stopped Gallentean invasion to Caldari Prime and even provided a truce for a year while the Navy has evacuated people from Caldari Prime, which gallentes turned into a warzone and slaughter grounds, where civilians had no place. Maybe he acted alone without orders of the Navy, but what he did - he did for all the Caldari, and I believe his actions shall be attributed to our whole peoples.

Templis Dragonaurs acted alone as well. It is a controversial topic and I myself can't come to finite judgement of their actions. I have put my thoughts about this attack in this discussion. On one hand, they weren't represented all Caldari and their action was just a desperate responce of offended civilians who couldn't find anything better to do. On the other hand, it looked like a cultural cleansing and defense of our homeworld from invading foreign culture. Shall we consider it action of whole Caldari?... I believe no. It was just a tiny group of independent guerilla, who acted for being repressed. Small subset of people in unique situation.

Now, returning to Adm. Noir. I assume you have compared him with Adm. Tovil-Toba. I have mentioned above, that action of Adm. Tovil-Toba saved billions of people, even if he killed millions. But what did Adm. Noir achieve?
- He killed millions as well.
- He killed CEO of a Megacorporation.
- He started the war.
Did he save anyone by his action? I am not referencing to Caldari or Gallente this time, but just amount of people. If Adm. Noir shall be compared with someone, it is to Templis Dragonaurs. I have already did this comparison elsewhere, but I will just repeat it here.
1) Templis Dragonaurs weren't connected to freshly formed Caldari State; Adm. Noir and his ship crew were members of Federal Navy, which is under direct command of Gallente Federation.
2) Both Templis Dragonaurs and Adm. Noir has acted on their hatred to other side.
3) However Templis Dragonaurs were forced into despair by that side by the ongoing conflict, and Adm. Noir attacked the other side, pretending to be an economic delegate during the peace.
4) Both of their actions caused just deaths without bringing anything good to their sides.
5) Both of their actions caused escalation in the conflict leading to full scale war.
6) Templis Dragonaurs destroyed enemy on the territory of attackers, where their enemy invaded; while Adm. Noir destroyed enemy in their homes where they were just living their own lives and were welcoming him.

I think this is enough to show Adm. Noir in black colors compared to Templis Dragonaurs and Adm. Tovil-Toba even if we close eyes on who was Gallente and who was Caldari. As you can see, this isn't a double standard, and while it may seems to be so at first, all you have to do is just dig a bit deeper.

(to be continued)

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#4 - 2016-11-27 09:43:25 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

I know they are the enemies of both Caldari State and Amarr Empire, ma'am. But at the same time - look at the map. You can see how many systems are occupied by Gallente Federation and Minmatar Republic.

Compared to that Drifter's presence is insignificant.



That feels suspiciously like an argument born of silence; how did you draw the assertion that the Drifter threat is 'insignificant' if not from a dangerous lack of evidence? We don't how far the Drifters' have extended their reach or the powers and technologies they utilize. They may be powerful, and they may be intent on harming the State, we simply do not know.

This is the thing, Mr. Nomistrav. I measure not the intent, but their actions. They've brought destruction and sorrow. But amount of destruction they caused is not comparable to destruction caused by Federals and Republicans. We could start comparing most notable events, like murder of Empress Jamyl, murder of Otro Gairushi, attack of Elder Fleet, invasion to Caldari Prime with assault on CN Shiigeru. But my point was comparing just daily losses.

Nomistrav wrote:

However, consider for a moment your words toward Sir Tuulinen, in which you stated that the desertion of the warzone is disloyal. I beg you to please answer as honestly as you can: Is a direct assault on the State, her people, and her assets not an act of war? If a Federation pilot were to destroy critical research that would benefit the State, would it not be considered an act of war? While I dare not assume, it can be reasonable to consider that your answer will most likely be yes. If such is the case, is it not then an act of war on behalf of the Drifters, who HAVE done this very act of violence? In such case, is Sir Tuulinen really deserting, or is he moving toward a conflict that the State is decidedly lacking in?

I have repeated several times that I do acknowledge Drifters as a threat and an open enemy of Caldari State.

Now imagine, if you have two enemies. One has attacked a research facility. Another one murders millions of colonists daily and keeps trillions of resources locked under occupation. And now tell me, against whom you will send main forces?

We are capsuleer pilots, and we workd of State Protectorate, which is an umbrella corporation of Caldari Navy of Caldari State. We are doing the job that Caldari State assigns us, and it's not just me, who thinks that the Federation or Republic are the main threat, but the Caldari State thinks so. Caldari Navy fights with Drifters indeed. But they don't tell us, pilots of State Protectorate, to go and pursuit Drifters instead of fighting Federation and Republic.

The State needs help against these two way more than it needs help against Drifters, and it shall be obvious at the moment. And I believe it will be wise to let Caldari Navy decide where they want us, capsuleers, more - in fights against drifters or federals.

There will be time and we will make drifters pay for our research facility. But for now, we need to liberate all oppressed systems from gallente occupation. Drifters can wait, our colonists might not have such a commodity.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#5 - 2016-11-27 10:06:33 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:


But I know that the State is at war. I know that half of Black Rise and half of our Homeworld is still occupied. I know that billions are suffer under gallente occupation. I know that we lack ships and pilots to liberate our lands. I know that we need every damn pair of hands here, in the warzone, to fight the real enemy that kills Caldari, and not just waves big gun somewhere.


Diana Kim wrote:


They are Caldari, and I will die for them. But those, who just work on colonies, those who work in spaceships, they are all Caldari too. They are keep dying because of this war, because Gallente occupy systems and genocide colonists. Because they are fighting for their homes and protecting what they have earned with honest labor. Are they worse than CEO who sit in comfy chairs and manage numbers in spreadsheets? Everyone must do their part. And our job is defending citizens of Caldari State, will it be CEO, manager, dock worker or a MTAC operator. They are all Caldari. All of them.


I realize the source of your anger is fueled with the blood of your comrades and compatriots, but please heed my words when I say that every war has bloodshed on both sides. The war between the State and the Federation is a brutal one, and shows no signs of ever being quelled as the reasons and justifications have now only turned toward vengeance. Someone has to be the better; someone has to set aside the past and work to attain peace, or the casualties will never end. Ask yourself, is it not the responsibility and duty of the State, that if such an opportunity was afforded, that they take it for the greater good? If it would work to end the unnecessary dying of the State and her people, would it not then be preferable to abstain from violence?

Mr. Nomistrav, I believe you don't understand the situation that we are in now.

Of course, it would be good to abstain from the violence, to make peace and live without threat to our people, but... there is one huge BUT.

We are being attacked by Federals. They occupy our homeworld. They occupy our Black Rise. I would gladly myself abstain from the violence and yell at them,
"JAIJII GO HOME!"
But will they? Will Federals go home and stop killing our civilians, will they leave Caldari Prime to us, withdraw all occupying forces from Black Rise, remove Control Towers, Citadels and Custom Offices?

Do you really think they will do? Because if they do, I will gladly put my guns away and shake their hand.

But until they do, I will keep holding my guns, I will chase them and kill them wherever they try to go. We will protect our lands, we will protect Caldari Prime, we will protect Black Rise and The Citadel. Every Caldari life, every Caldari asset, every Caldari system is for us to protect. And while they are trying to put their hands on our property and our peoples. While they will have their feet on our planets, we will keep the fight.

They brought violence to us. They came to our worlds with weapons in hands. They murder, rob and pillage, they desecrate our homeworld, genocide colonies and torture whom they capture. While they are doing all this we won't even consider abstaining from the violence. We will reply, as we should.

WITH FIRE AND STEEL.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Nomistrav
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2016-11-27 10:09:37 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

This is the thing, Mr. Nomistrav. I measure not the intent, but their actions. They've brought destruction and sorrow. But amount of destruction they caused is not comparable to destruction caused by Federals and Republicans. We could start comparing most notable events, like murder of Empress Jamyl, murder of Otro Gairushi, attack of Elder Fleet, invasion to Caldari Prime with assault on CN Shiigeru. But my point was comparing just daily losses.


A fair assertion, though I would argue that the daily losses are something that we cannot readily find hard evidence for. It ultimately depends on a varied strata of criteria as to what defines a State and Federation citizen. I believe that we both would abstain from assuming that mere blood would denote one's affiliation, as this is no more than petty racism and xenophobia, but to that end, are the crewman - a greater majority Intaki - aboard my vessel State or Federation citizens? While the greater whole subscribe to similar beliefs as myself, that neither the State nor the Federation are in any way entitled to Intaki and her people, there are a few who believe that we Intaki should look to the Federation for safety. Just as well, there are a few who believe the State, namely the Ishukone Corporation, provide the best opportunity.

My point is that even on my homely vessel, there is a broad range of beliefs, and that the conflict between the State and the Federation is a complex one. I'm sure there are a multitude of Federation citizens who are sympathetic to the State and her plight, just as there are State citizens who would be sympathetic toward the Federation. As you may know, we Intaki were arguably the most disenfranchised. How then, can we segregate the daily losses from both sides? I would argue that the daily losses of both the State and Federation are despicable, and without warrant or justification, as there are likely just as many who would seek peace as there are who desire war.

Diana Kim wrote:

I have repeated several times that I do acknowledge Drifters as a threat and an open enemy of Caldari State.

Now imagine, if you have two enemies. One has attacked a research facility. Another one murders millions of colonists daily and keeps trillions of resources locked under occupation. And now tell me, against whom you will send main forces?

We are capsuleer pilots, and we workd of State Protectorate, which is an umbrella corporation of Caldari Navy of Caldari State. We are doing the job that Caldari State assigns us, and it's not just me, who thinks that the Federation or Republic are the main threat, but the Caldari State thinks so. Caldari Navy fights with Drifters indeed. But they don't tell us, pilots of State Protectorate, to go and pursuit Drifters instead of fighting Federation and Republic.

The State needs help against these two way more than it needs help against Drifters, and it shall be obvious at the moment. And I believe it will be wise to let Caldari Navy decide where they want us, capsuleers, more - in fights against drifters or federals.

There will be time and we will make drifters pay for our research facility. But for now, we need to liberate all oppressed systems from gallente occupation. Drifters can wait, our colonists might not have such a commodity.


While I find your loyalty and dedication admirable - even inspirational - I worry that you may be victim to a noble desire to rely on the authority of the State. It is not wrong to seek the guidance of military leaders, but what guidance can a General offer in terms of peace? If a man knows only bloodshed and war, than by all means, seek him for advice on matters in kind, but we cannot be blinded by an assumption that they are experts in a field they are not specialists or laymen of. That a General would imply that they are right by nature of a profession that is unrelated to terms of diplomacy and peace, or worse yet enforce their opinion on those that value them as a mentor out of fear of repercussion, is perhaps not a wise man to follow.

At some point we must lay down our arms, if but a moment, and listen. The war continues for both sides, and while we cannot ignore the losses incurred, it certainly cannot help if we continue to inflict them. Restitution can be made between the State and the Federation, as well as the fledgling peoples disenfranchised by them, but only if we seek compromise as a valuable alternative. To that end, we all share a common enemy in the face of a force that does not speak and does not listen. The Drifters, to date, have shown no capacity for diplomacy and no regard for life if it interferes with their interest.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama

Nomistrav
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2016-11-27 10:14:57 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

Mr. Nomistrav, I believe you don't understand the situation that we are in now.

Of course, it would be good to abstain from the violence, to make peace and live without threat to our people, but... there is one huge BUT.

We are being attacked by Federals. They occupy our homeworld. They occupy our Black Rise. I would gladly myself abstain from the violence and yell at them,
"JAIJII GO HOME!"
But will they? Will Federals go home and stop killing our civilians, will they leave Caldari Prime to us, withdraw all occupying forces from Black Rise, remove Control Towers, Citadels and Custom Offices?

Do you really think they will do? Because if they do, I will gladly put my guns away and shake their hand.

But until they do, I will keep holding my guns, I will chase them and kill them wherever they try to go. We will protect our lands, we will protect Caldari Prime, we will protect Black Rise and The Citadel. Every Caldari life, every Caldari asset, every Caldari system is for us to protect. And while they are trying to put their hands on our property and our peoples. While they will have their feet on our planets, we will keep the fight.

They brought violence to us. They came to our worlds with weapons in hands. They murder, rob and pillage, they desecrate our homeworld, genocide colonies and torture whom they capture. While they are doing all this we won't even consider abstaining from the violence. We will reply, as we should.

WITH FIRE AND STEEL.


Yes, I offer no disagreement to the facts, the Federation does stretch far into the territories traditionally of State sovereignty. Yet, I too have known that plight. I watched as the lines shifted and the State once held the entirety of all the fledgling nations under their grasp and even my home of Intaki was sold in silent auction to the highest (and arguably only) bidder of Ishukone. However, I find it important to make note that there was little resistance to this. We worked with the Ishukone Corporation, in tandem with Mordu's Mercenaries, because we saw that it was ultimately the greater good, if at the time. Intaki is a poor system, we have no means to provide a large fleet for ourselves and from that was born a mutual respect and understanding for those would be our allies, and those who would oppose us.

I don't think that it is to say that the State or the Federation could not do something similar, but you must understand that our compromise was just that: A compromise. We did not get our way. We had little say in the matter. The only way that the State and the Federation can break bread together is if they understand that they must share the bread in the first place, that neither is entitled to it. To both want peace and desire occupation is asking too much, and I dare suggest that you yourself would not accept such an accord.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama

Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#8 - 2016-11-28 05:24:27 UTC
When I said "Kim we get some more information on this?', this isn't what I meant...

Lol
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#9 - 2016-11-28 10:23:38 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:

A fair assertion, though I would argue that the daily losses are something that we cannot readily find hard evidence for. It ultimately depends on a varied strata of criteria as to what defines a State and Federation citizen. I believe that we both would abstain from assuming that mere blood would denote one's affiliation, as this is no more than petty racism and xenophobia, but to that end, are the crewman - a greater majority Intaki - aboard my vessel State or Federation citizens? While the greater whole subscribe to similar beliefs as myself, that neither the State nor the Federation are in any way entitled to Intaki and her people, there are a few who believe that we Intaki should look to the Federation for safety. Just as well, there are a few who believe the State, namely the Ishukone Corporation, provide the best opportunity.

My point is that even on my homely vessel, there is a broad range of beliefs, and that the conflict between the State and the Federation is a complex one. I'm sure there are a multitude of Federation citizens who are sympathetic to the State and her plight, just as there are State citizens who would be sympathetic toward the Federation. As you may know, we Intaki were arguably the most disenfranchised. How then, can we segregate the daily losses from both sides? I would argue that the daily losses of both the State and Federation are despicable, and without warrant or justification, as there are likely just as many who would seek peace as there are who desire war.

I am pretty sure we can segregate losses in the war. Your vessels are though "neutrals" and if your crewmembers die in the conflict, they can be considered either as collateral damage, or.. At this moment I think we will want to know what did they do in the warzone and how comes they end under guns of either side. Most of neutral losses that happen in the warzone are the pirates. Of course, I am not making any assumptions about your crewmembers.

There is a good part about citizenship. It is not about opinions, beliefs and philosophies that every human can change. But it is what is written in your information sheet. These can be gathered, analyzed and sorted.

Crude estimation will be counting losses of Protectorate and Navy both baseline and capsuleer vessels. There are of couse colossal number of genocided colonists, but this information we can verify only when we liberate Black Rise colonies from Gallente Occupation, by comparing census with pre-occupation records from House of Records. We know from reports leaked to media that Gallente troops were genociding Caldari colonies. But there is no such information about Drifter or Caldari behavior available.

Nomistrav wrote:

While I find your loyalty and dedication admirable - even inspirational - I worry that you may be victim to a noble desire to rely on the authority of the State. It is not wrong to seek the guidance of military leaders, but what guidance can a General offer in terms of peace? If a man knows only bloodshed and war, than by all means, seek him for advice on matters in kind, but we cannot be blinded by an assumption that they are experts in a field they are not specialists or laymen of. That a General would imply that they are right by nature of a profession that is unrelated to terms of diplomacy and peace, or worse yet enforce their opinion on those that value them as a mentor out of fear of repercussion, is perhaps not a wise man to follow.

We aren't at peace though, Mr. Nomistrav. We have a war. A war with Gallente Federation, a war with Minmatar Republic. And we fight against Sansha Nation and Drifters. We chase off Gurista, Blood Raiders, Serpentis, Angels and even Rogue Drones. It doesn't smell like peace for me, Mr. Nomistrav. Doesn't at all. And when you are dealing with hostile threat you'd better consult your generals about how to chase them off instead of diplomats and politicians.

Imagine a Sansha dropship landing to the planet to uplift some citizens. And you standing before them with huge flag, "HELLO SANSHA, LETS TALK AND MAKE PEACE!" They will either ignore you or just run you over. The Generals instad of diplomats and politicians make the job done. They yell, lower the hand, and a barrage or railgun shells with a thunder will pierce the hull of Sansha dropship, turning it into a huge bright fireball with smoldering remains landing peacefully on the ground. That's how Generals make peace - they destroy the threat.

I am myself is a hound of these Generals. They point me where to go, they point me whom to bite. Though as you have noticed, I don't just bite unlike others, but I bark as well. Yes, I do follow orders of Superiors, but at the same time I have my own opinion, and I am not shy to tell it. We all know what happens with soldiers without opinion. It was Kuvakei's project to make loyal soldiers who won't question and won't have their own opinion. And look at them now - they just drop like flies, while our fleet against them return home without losses.

And I will follow our generals. Because they get the job done.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#10 - 2016-11-28 10:36:13 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:

At some point we must lay down our arms, if but a moment, and listen. The war continues for both sides, and while we cannot ignore the losses incurred, it certainly cannot help if we continue to inflict them. Restitution can be made between the State and the Federation, as well as the fledgling peoples disenfranchised by them, but only if we seek compromise as a valuable alternative. To that end, we all share a common enemy in the face of a force that does not speak and does not listen. The Drifters, to date, have shown no capacity for diplomacy and no regard for life if it interferes with their interest.

Well, for us dropping guns now is not an option. Tell me, would you lay down arms if you will see a burglar breaking into your home and starting killing your family? Tell me, would you drop your gun?...

You are telling that drifters don't have capacity for diplomacy. But do Gallente have? In YC110 after liberating Caldari Prime Tibus Heth has signed a peace treaty with the Federation and our home was finally returned to Caldari State. Yes, gallente signed the paper, but did they follow it? Their signature and word laster only for five years, because in YC115 FDU started secretly pouring mercenaries into Caldari Prime to launch another occupation. It erupted into infamous Operation Highlander, when in addition to ground assault Gallente launched space attack and downed the titan on our planet.

I was there. And I heard what gallente were saying when they were attacking. I haven't heard anything more unappealable, fanatical and zealotous than calls of Gallente commanders of attacking capital fleet. It was almost scary, how fanatical they were, when they were attacking to occupy our homeworld wide eyed, going to commit murders and atrocities in the name of their democracies and freedoms. You should have seen this. You should have heard them...

These aren't the peoples whom you can do diplomacy or negotiations with. At that moment I even doubted if they had at least something humane left in them.

In my opinion the diplomatic resolution of the conflict with Drifters is way more probable than the diplomatic resolution of the conflict with Gallente.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#11 - 2016-11-28 10:54:31 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:

Yes, I offer no disagreement to the facts, the Federation does stretch far into the territories traditionally of State sovereignty. Yet, I too have known that plight. I watched as the lines shifted and the State once held the entirety of all the fledgling nations under their grasp and even my home of Intaki was sold in silent auction to the highest (and arguably only) bidder of Ishukone. However, I find it important to make note that there was little resistance to this. We worked with the Ishukone Corporation, in tandem with Mordu's Mercenaries, because we saw that it was ultimately the greater good, if at the time. Intaki is a poor system, we have no means to provide a large fleet for ourselves and from that was born a mutual respect and understanding for those would be our allies, and those who would oppose us.

Why should there be resistance? Corporations are good for one thing - making profit and improving themselves. Once you are part of them usually the worst that could happen is leaving them. Our society is built on efficiency, on hard work and self improvement. We don't feed you with democracies and freedoms like Gallentes, we bring you bread instead. We bring trade, jobs, food, commodities and opportunities. Who will resist against this, really? Big smile

I might dislike Ishukone, but what they did to Intaki, not every Caldari planet gets. And I bet you simply can't imagine any of Federal corporations doing something like that.

Nomistrav wrote:

I don't think that it is to say that the State or the Federation could not do something similar, but you must understand that our compromise was just that: A compromise. We did not get our way. We had little say in the matter. The only way that the State and the Federation can break bread together is if they understand that they must share the bread in the first place, that neither is entitled to it. To both want peace and desire occupation is asking too much, and I dare suggest that you yourself would not accept such an accord.

This is a story old like a world. There was a system with two planets, belonging to two different cultures. They were living at peace, until one side tried to subjugate another. And this war is still going on.

The Luminaire is a home for both us and Gallente. It is a system that shouldn't be owned by Gallente or Caldari alone, but Gallente want it all for themselves. And thus we fight. We won't let ourselves be subjugated for bullies, and we will keep fighting for our home. Either until gallente will enlighten themselves and realize that it is actually POSSIBLE to live with others in same system without trying to dominate and starting wars, or until we will have to kick them out ourselves, which is more probable taking into account gallente points of views.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Nomistrav
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2016-11-28 14:40:33 UTC
Madam Kim, you may regard your crewmembers as expendable piecemeal to warrant them as 'collateral damage', but I implore you that you do not regard mine in such a light. Each of them is as important to me as my own blood, and for that reason alone I fly craft of Gallentean make; to reduce unnecessary loss of life. That said, while I applaud your diligence in the hypothetical comparison of numbers, I'd advise that you carefully consider that, to date, there is little concrete evidence of intentional malice on behalf of the Federation in the way of a word so strong as genocide, especially not since the removal of the warmongering Ultra-Nationalists.

Just as well, I politely request sources for this continued claim of a 'colossal number of genocided colonists', especially one in the range of millions, as you previously argued. You argue that there is no such information available for the impact of Drifters, but I argue that the claims of such losses may be hyperbole, and reinforce the notion that repeated claims of such does not make them any more valid on their own. The isolated incident of the prisons in Black Rise does not statistically provide a significant case for compelling evidence of the claim that 'millions' are dying.

On the notion of the difference between Peacekeepers and Generals, I'd like to thank you for clarifying what you thought I said, as I must not have been clear. What I intended to say is that in the vie for peace talks, we cannot simply dismiss the other side as automatons without free will or critical thinking. To assume that the free peoples of the Federation are not without their own means of war and Generals to follow is foolish, but it is perhaps even more foolish to assume that they like animals or robots. The Federation, just like the State, should not be so simply defined by its most perverse, less we paint all of mankind in such a broad stroke of the primal state of the few. To assume that the Federation Citizens are as fiendish as Sansha's monstrosities, and without free will, is directly contrary to the work of President Elabon just a hundred years ago.

President Elabon originally took on a defensive posture in YC1, with Federation forces only engaging State forces if they entered the space CONCORD defined as belonging to the Federation. Furthermore, President Elabon withdrew all Gallente forces occupying State worlds and colonies. I'd remind you that this was the criteria in your list of demands for peace, previously. To that end, President Elabon made a vie for peace, but was prevented from doing so by the Federation Senate, but it should be noted that the Chief Executive Panel made no attempt at peace either. Those who follow the legacy of President Elabon, despite his short five years term and subsequent death, are routinely awarded by the Elabon Foundation for pursuing a vision of peace and prosperity.

My premise? President Elabon was not a General. He was not a soldier or a military man, and yet despite this he swayed the Federation's armed forces to turn the other cheek and provided the foundation for the first iterations of peace between the State and the Federation, allowing trade to prosper later on. Thus, reinforcing my previous statement: Generals make war, not peace. To accept the smallest facete of peace we must first learn to listen to men who are not paid by blood.

On the subject of Caldari Prime, I fear that you may have been misled in your perspective of what occurred there, dreadful as the event may be to remember. Though what you say may be true in part, you forget that the State accepted the ceding of Caldari Prime to the Federation as a prior agreement of peace treaty. To present Tibus Heth's forced treaty by threat of gun barrel as valid, and dismiss the validity of a treaty made on prior, more peaceful terms, is concerning. To elaborate, I'm concerned that you are not aware of the state of things on Caldari Prime prior the start of Operation Highlander, or perhaps simply do not recall.

The exact same reasons you explain as the basis for the continuation of the war were used by the Joint Resistance Movement: invasion of home, concern of reprisal, etc. You claim that one does not simply lay down their arms in the event of a burgular, but this would imply that the citizens on Caldari Prime should not have either, and they didn't; resulting in a boiling over of tensions between the Resistance and the Provists, ultimately ending in Operation Highlander. It is as you say: One does not share ground under threat of violence. The Resistance knew this, and even Shaileen Ramnev, who was both of Caldari and Gallente heritage saw the greater good when Martial Law was declared.

You may not readily know this, but I was at Operation Highlander as well. I heard what was said, and I hear what is being said now. I did not differentiate the two then, and I do not differentiate the two now. Both sides fanned the flames, the State is not innocent in that regard. The intention to commit violence and hatred in any capacity is unacceptable on either front, regardless of who spoke it first. I fought alongside the Federation because I saw the atrocities being committed against the peoples of Caldari Prime under the Provists, and I made motion to act in their defense in what ways I could. Were it the other way around, my decision would not have differed.

In regard to the promises of 'efficiency' and 'self-improvement', I'll remind you that it was not Tibus Heth and his ilk that brought Intaki out of the fold, but Ishukone, whom he later chastized. I'm not so easily bought by so thin a veil. What Ishukone did for us was good, yes, but I'll not believe the actions of Ishukone were representative of the State as a whole, and you would do well not to so easily believe the actions of Ultra-Nationalists and the deniable ops of tyrants are representative of the Federation.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama

Jason Galente
Hole Punchers
I Could Do Better
#13 - 2016-11-28 17:29:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Galente
I would contest your idea that it is the existential trait of a General to seek war and not peace.

Their job is certainly most needed during war, but a noble General should prepare heavily for war, while seeking and maintaining peace to the extent that it can be pursued without endangering his people. While I understand this is primarily the role of a Diplomat, peace is delicate and all people play a role in lobbying for it and maintaining it, not just a select few diplomats.

A General that thrives on the idea of war during peacetime and seeks it out is a savage and a threat to civilization. I understand your argument, though, that this is rather unfortunately the current incentive of generals and thus their most commonly produced behavior, however this doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Incentive structures can be engineered and re-engineered, even if human psychology cannot.

I'm sure as a wise and diplomatic man yourself, you'll see the merit in this nuance.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#14 - 2016-11-28 20:42:21 UTC
I wondered where I left that can of worms.... It seems Nomistrav found and opened it. Roll

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Slayer Liberator
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#15 - 2016-11-29 02:41:17 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Nomistrav wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:


But I know that the State is at war. I know that half of Black Rise and half of our Homeworld is still occupied. I know that billions are suffer under gallente occupation. I know that we lack ships and pilots to liberate our lands. I know that we need every damn pair of hands here, in the warzone, to fight the real enemy that kills Caldari, and not just waves big gun somewhere.


Diana Kim wrote:


They are Caldari, and I will die for them. But those, who just work on colonies, those who work in spaceships, they are all Caldari too. They are keep dying because of this war, because Gallente occupy systems and genocide colonists. Because they are fighting for their homes and protecting what they have earned with honest labor. Are they worse than CEO who sit in comfy chairs and manage numbers in spreadsheets? Everyone must do their part. And our job is defending citizens of Caldari State, will it be CEO, manager, dock worker or a MTAC operator. They are all Caldari. All of them.


I realize the source of your anger is fueled with the blood of your comrades and compatriots, but please heed my words when I say that every war has bloodshed on both sides. The war between the State and the Federation is a brutal one, and shows no signs of ever being quelled as the reasons and justifications have now only turned toward vengeance. Someone has to be the better; someone has to set aside the past and work to attain peace, or the casualties will never end. Ask yourself, is it not the responsibility and duty of the State, that if such an opportunity was afforded, that they take it for the greater good? If it would work to end the unnecessary dying of the State and her people, would it not then be preferable to abstain from violence?

Mr. Nomistrav, I believe you don't understand the situation that we are in now.

Of course, it would be good to abstain from the violence, to make peace and live without threat to our people, but... there is one huge BUT.

We are being attacked by Federals. They occupy our homeworld. They occupy our Black Rise. I would gladly myself abstain from the violence and yell at them,
"JAIJII GO HOME!"
But will they? Will Federals go home and stop killing our civilians, will they leave Caldari Prime to us, withdraw all occupying forces from Black Rise, remove Control Towers, Citadels and Custom Offices?

Do you really think they will do? Because if they do, I will gladly put my guns away and shake their hand.

But until they do, I will keep holding my guns, I will chase them and kill them wherever they try to go. We will protect our lands, we will protect Caldari Prime, we will protect Black Rise and The Citadel. Every Caldari life, every Caldari asset, every Caldari system is for us to protect. And while they are trying to put their hands on our property and our peoples. While they will have their feet on our planets, we will keep the fight.

They brought violence to us. They came to our worlds with weapons in hands. They murder, rob and pillage, they desecrate our homeworld, genocide colonies and torture whom they capture. While they are doing all this we won't even consider abstaining from the violence. We will reply, as we should.

WITH FIRE AND STEEL.

And thus the circle of suffering continues
Nomistrav
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-11-29 04:52:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Nomistrav
Jason Galente wrote:
I would contest your idea that it is the existential trait of a General to seek war and not peace.

Their job is certainly most needed during war, but a noble General should prepare heavily for war, while seeking and maintaining peace to the extent that it can be pursued without endangering his people. While I understand this is primarily the role of a Diplomat, peace is delicate and all people play a role in lobbying for it and maintaining it, not just a select few diplomats.

A General that thrives on the idea of war during peacetime and seeks it out is a savage and a threat to civilization. I understand your argument, though, that this is rather unfortunately the current incentive of generals and thus their most commonly produced behavior, however this doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Incentive structures can be engineered and re-engineered, even if human psychology cannot.

I'm sure as a wise and diplomatic man yourself, you'll see the merit in this nuance.


A valid, and well-spoken argument. In addendum, I would add that it is largely up to the soldier to decide for themselves if their respective military leaders are warmongering for warmongering's sake, and am a staunch believer that it is more becoming of a soldier to know when to deny an order that they know in their heart to be morally wrong. While we could debate as to what criteria determines what it morally wrong, I believe we're in all agreement that a universal truth exists in that violence is rarely the only answer. In conclusion, I believe it would be up to Madam Diana Kim to decide for herself whether or not her Generals would accept peace, or perpetuate the drawn out hostilities ad infinitum.

EDIT: To clarify, however, it is important that we not listen to our leaders blindly.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama

Lasairiona Raske
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#17 - 2016-11-29 13:59:41 UTC
*facepalm*

Are you a devil or an angel

Sent here from heaven or from hell?

Sweet temptress, I'm wrapped in your tangles

Can't find my way out of your spell

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#18 - 2016-11-29 15:49:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Claudia Osyn
If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Don't be afraid to be the first to resort to violence

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Solu Terona
Alexylva Paradox
#19 - 2016-11-30 02:52:08 UTC
This is some impressive girth for a thread with only two principal actors

Humans must eventually break out from the limits of biology, its not radical to accept the inevitable.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#20 - 2016-11-30 03:01:46 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:
Madam Kim, you may regard your crewmembers as expendable piecemeal to warrant them as 'collateral damage', but I implore you that you do not regard mine in such a light.

That was both disrespectful about my crew and ignorant about me.
[/quote]

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

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