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War for Attackers

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Gavascon
need more power inc.
#1 - 2016-11-27 18:22:18 UTC
well, CCP......maybe it's time to do something for those who like to declare war.

after all, you have done a lot for defenders.
i.e.: ally system and the loss of a watch list.

maybe it's time to NOT let corporation members leave after a war dec has been dropped on them.
OR let the corp members take the war with them if they do leave.

how about shortening the 24 hour timer before a war dec goes active?
an ally can become active in 4 hours. hmmmmm

as of today, there are (according to evewho):
3,025 alliances
359,384 corporations
9,108,551 characters

all of the members of an alliance receive an email notifying them that war has been declared and when it will begin.
thousands of characters receive that mail.
when a corp within an alliance leaves, they take the war with them.
if that corp then joins a new alliance, the new alliance gets the war - and the emails.
which tells me, CCP has a means of tracking it all.

it shouldn't' be difficult to "tag" the pilots affected - thereby blocking/preventing them from dropping corp to evade the war or take the war with them to an npc corp or a new corporation.

9 million characters do NOT play eve on a daily basis.
in fact, i haven't seen more than 45,000 logged in on any given day.

eve is a game designed for pvp.
with that said, why does CCP make it so easy for players to avoid it?
Nina Hayes
Dark Horse RM
#2 - 2016-11-27 18:34:42 UTC
It's also designed for pve so yea. That not everyone wants to play your way, with you, is your problem not theirs in the end, Maybe hand out candy? work on the ol personality? paint with oils, peeps will hang out with you more, might even let you shoot their little ships. dream big, thats the lesson here.
Malcorath Sacerdos
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2016-11-27 18:38:22 UTC
Gavascon wrote:
well, CCP......maybe it's time to do something for those who like to declare war.

after all, you have done a lot for defenders.
i.e.: ally system and the loss of a watch list.

maybe it's time to NOT let corporation members leave after a war dec has been dropped on them.
OR let the corp members take the war with them if they do leave.

how about shortening the 24 hour timer before a war dec goes active?
an ally can become active in 4 hours. hmmmmm

as of today, there are (according to evewho):
3,025 alliances
359,384 corporations
9,108,551 characters

all of the members of an alliance receive an email notifying them that war has been declared and when it will begin.
thousands of characters receive that mail.
when a corp within an alliance leaves, they take the war with them.
if that corp then joins a new alliance, the new alliance gets the war - and the emails.
which tells me, CCP has a means of tracking it all.

it shouldn't' be difficult to "tag" the pilots affected - thereby blocking/preventing them from dropping corp to evade the war or take the war with them to an npc corp or a new corporation.

9 million characters do NOT play eve on a daily basis.
in fact, i haven't seen more than 45,000 logged in on any given day.

eve is a game designed for pvp.
with that said, why does CCP make it so easy for players to avoid it?



wont work .. toon a join corp a. corp b wardeck corp a, toon a drop to Npc corp .. npc corp now wardeced ...... ?
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#4 - 2016-11-27 18:39:08 UTC
Awww didums.

Not able to blow up enough unarmed mining barges are you?
Dahlia Samar
Maniacal Miners INC
The Legends In The Game
#5 - 2016-11-27 18:41:57 UTC
Wardec's are annoying enough, the last thing we need is to give high-sec "mercenaries" more power.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#6 - 2016-11-27 18:44:38 UTC
I'm pretty sure CCP's intention with war was that you are getting aggression Rights twords the corporation/alliance and not specifically the individuals.

Don't get me wrong I think it's a pain in the arse when a group you've been doing research on for a while just folds as soon as the Dec drops.
But that's an issue with how Corps function on a fundamental level.
Dec dodging as an entity is bad
But
Leaving a war as an individual is an absolute necessity.
you can take that "nope" option away from wars, specifically when talking about line members and new recruits.
On an individual basis one has to be able to leave the circumstances,
If you can't hack it in null you can leave
If you can't hack it in wormholes you can leave
If you can't hack it low you can leave
Highsec though?
You can't go anywhere else, you're left with dropping corp or logging off and the latter isn't a healthy thing for the game.

Yes corporation and alliance mechanics suck,
Yes I agree with you that it's far to easy to Dec dodg,
Yes you absolutely should have your fees refunded.
You can't lock the line members in though,
You could make an arrangement for the leadership though I.e. the CEO and directors.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Mykal Omara
Mykal Omara's Solitary Endeavors in Space
#7 - 2016-11-27 19:58:26 UTC
There's also always the option of playing on an alt for the duration of the war.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8 - 2016-11-27 20:05:17 UTC
Gavascon wrote:
9 million characters do NOT play eve on a daily basis.
in fact, i haven't seen more than 45,000 logged in on any given day.

Wait what?

There are more than 45,000 unique players that login everyday, many of them with multiple characters. That is far more than 45,000 characters logged in each day.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Gavascon
need more power inc.
#9 - 2016-11-27 20:26:12 UTC
ralph,
you and i tend to see things the same way.
(which is why i like you)....

i disagree with you on the point where you say it is a necessity for a pilot to be able to leave a war dec'd corp.
here's why:
i'd like to think that any given pilot joins a corp for a reason - there's a common goal, for example.
that pilot should stay for good times and bad times.
which now generates the question: "were they loyal to the corporation or to themselves?"
if they leave, i tend to think that pilot is thinking of themselves, not the whole.
that pilot can still log in - but stay in station where it's safe or just not log in for a week.
CCP isn't effected because subs are paid monthly, quarterly, semi-annually or annually or subs are paid with plex.
the game isn't really effected either if 1 pilot doesn't log in for a week.
a true allegience to a corp would be created by not allowing pilots to leave his/her corp during a war.

let's say an alliance has 10 corps with a total of 500 pilots.
corp a (with 50 pilots) leaves the alliance. corp a takes the war with them.
corp a cannot escape the war.
why should any of the 50 pilots escape by dropping?

if said pilot(s) go to an npc corp - only the pilot(s) should be affected. not the entire npc corp.
is logical.....corp a cannot escape war. neither should any of their 50 pilots.

furthermore, think of the imbalance between the cost of a war dec vs the cost of starting a new corporation.
years ago that imbalance was slight (2 mil to dec a corp. 1.5 mil to start one). now it's huge.
one possible deterrent to corp hopping could be to raise the cost of creating a corporation from 1.5 mil to 50 mil.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#10 - 2016-11-27 20:39:34 UTC
Well, personally, my only problem with war right now is defenders dropping corp and making new corps. I don't think that should be allowed. Normally, if two countries go to war, the defending side can't just change their name and have the war go away.

"Sorry Germany, you can't attack us today because we are not France anymore. We are Freedomville"

Play on alts or learn to fight back, or hide. But closing corps and creating a new one should be no-go.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#11 - 2016-11-27 20:47:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Gavascon wrote:
i disagree with you on the point where you say it is a necessity for a pilot to be able to leave a war dec'd corp.
here's why:
i'd like to think that any given pilot joins a corp for a reason - there's a common goal, for example.
that pilot should stay for good times and bad times.
which now generates the question: "were they loyal to the corporation or to themselves?"
if they leave, i tend to think that pilot is thinking of themselves, not the whole.
that pilot can still log in - but stay in station where it's safe or just not log in for a week.
CCP isn't effected because subs are paid monthly, quarterly, semi-annually or annually or subs are paid with plex.
the game isn't really effected either if 1 pilot doesn't log in for a week.
a true allegience to a corp would be created by not allowing pilots to leave his/her corp during a war.

let's say an alliance has 10 corps with a total of 500 pilots.
corp a (with 50 pilots) leaves the alliance. corp a takes the war with them.
corp a cannot escape the war.
why should any of the 50 pilots escape by dropping?

if said pilot(s) go to an npc corp - only the pilot(s) should be affected. not the entire npc corp.
is logical.....corp a cannot escape war. neither should any of their 50 pilots.

furthermore, think of the imbalance between the cost of a war dec vs the cost of starting a new corporation.
years ago that imbalance was slight (2 mil to dec a corp. 1.5 mil to start one). now it's huge.
one possible deterrent to corp hopping could be to raise the cost of creating a corporation from 1.5 mil to 50 mil.

I don't think it is necessarily an issue of loyalty. There are plenty of situations where it makes much more sense for a loyal player to drop Corp when a wardec occurs; and continue working for the Corp/Alliance in highsec during the war.

However, characters should be able to drop, simply because wars can be declared against anyone at any moment in time. From a defending Corps perspective, most wars declared against them are completely arbitrary. They have nothing against the attacking Corp/Alliance and are just going about their gameplan when a war comes in that will require them to change what they are doing.

I am all for wars being declarable at any point, but in that situation, there needs to be an out for characters.

The alternative would be to restrict the arbitrary way in which wars are declared, but I personally think that would be a step in the wrong direction.

However, even limiting an individual characters ability to drop Corp wouldn't work. By necessity that would also require stopping a CEOs ability to kick characters out of Corp, otherwise that would just become the work around anyway. Can't drop? Ask CEO to kick and then rejoin later on.
Alea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2016-11-27 20:50:48 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Well, personally, my only problem with war right now is defenders dropping corp and making new corps. I don't think that should be allowed. Normally, if two countries go to war, the defending side can't just change their name and have the war go away.

"Sorry Germany, you can't attack us today because we are not France anymore. We are Freedomville"

Play on alts or learn to fight back, or hide. But closing corps and creating a new one should be no-go.


Many years ago I could shed wardecs by moving my members to one of my other corps, can't do that today so it's not as easy as it once was, I don't want to play Eve your way I want to play Eve my way, which was avoiding wardecs so I could continue to do my highsec business unhindered by someone wanting to play Eve on easy mode.

Today both of my corps live in null and wormholes where wardeccers and CODE fear to tread, if you guys want real fights come out that way and we will oblige you with plenty of pew.

Whomever is making the last few years decisions on what changes are to be implemented in this game, must hate Eve with all their being.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#13 - 2016-11-27 21:00:20 UTC
Alea wrote:
I don't want to play Eve your way I want to play Eve my way, which was avoiding wardecs so I could continue to do my highsec business unhindered by someone wanting to play Eve on easy mode.



The whole point of "WAR" is that it cannot be avoided by the non-belligerent side. I can't think of a single war where the victim side said, "We don't want to fight, leave us alone." and had the belligerants say, "Oh, sorry, I guess we'll go attack another country."

Wars are not duels, they are War. If you want duels instead where both sides mutually consent, call them duels or tournaments. To me the name is a statement of intent. If we are going to call them wars, then they should be treated as such.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#14 - 2016-11-27 21:16:47 UTC
Alea wrote:
Today both of my corps live in null and wormholes where wardeccers and CODE fear to tread, if you guys want real fights come out that way and we will oblige you with plenty of pew.

What Corps are those?

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Conrad Makbure
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2016-11-27 21:22:59 UTC
So, OP, I thought you were talking about griefing industrial corps of miners and space truckers who don't train combat skills and don't fly armed ships, but it sounds like you're talking about people who are leaving your side?? So what if they do. Make the corporation better for them to stay, if that is in fact what's happening. It's a legit mechanic to get out of being flagged for pvp. But you want to change all that huh? Your suggestions sound a bit extreme.

Also, comparing EVE war to a real life world war is just retardedville. The hell kind of stupid comparison is that.
Jennifer Starblaze
Fury Transport
#16 - 2016-11-27 21:58:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jennifer Starblaze
I think completly locking people into their corp is not a good idea either.

You will find many corps that lure in new players, without ever telling them about wars. I have seen quite a few alphas over the last couple of days who joined corps that even had wars running at it seemed like the recruiter never mentioned anything like that.

On the one hand side you can say it´s the ppls own fault for not doing any proper research before joining the corp, but with EvE and all it´s menus and submenus it is not that easy for brand new players to find the information they need, not even speaking of the lack of information about the possibility to end up in wars and what exactly that means, if you join a corporation.

People are still trying to learn the basic game mechanics and are always told to find a corp or make friends in some form to make the game a lot more interesting, but people barely ever explain the "downside" of wars to them.

Now if you completly lock those players into a corporation, especially one of the many corps out there with terrible leadership, who don´t have a clue how to behave in war times, they will definetly get frustrated with the game rather quick and a lot of them are bound to just close the game and to never come back. And it´s not even that those people are all just carebears, they just were unlucky to land in a corporation, where nobody can teach them how to fight and where nobody is willing to help them fight.

However I would be all for making it cost something if you leave a corp to dodge a war.

Without thinking very long about it (so this might turn out to be a terrible idea), I would introduce a fee to leave a corp that is wardecced.

That fee could for example be based on your weekly average income over the past 4 weeks.

- char younger than 4 weeks gets out for free
- If your char is older than 4 weeks you pay 20% of your average weekly income to concord to be allowed to leave the corp.

On top of not just dropping out of corp without any disadvantage, the attackers also are placed in a decent position to negotiate a surrender and the larger the corp is, the more income it should generate, the more money you should be able to squeeze out of a corp, but it might still be the cheaper solution for the corp as a whole than having individual members dropping and giving their ISK to concord instead.

Also that way the fee would scale with the ability to make ISK, which means newer player with a lot less ISK do not get hit as hard as people who make billions every week.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2016-11-27 22:08:21 UTC
My biggest beef with the Wardec system as it stands is that it is the opposite of risk vs reward. It is cheaper to wardec a small corp than it is to wardec a large one.

They need to balance it out so the cost is based on your corps size vs the opponents size with extra bills if members join or leave.

That way you are better off attacking larger corps and risking more for the reward of more targets.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#18 - 2016-11-27 22:24:50 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
My biggest beef with the Wardec system as it stands is that it is the opposite of risk vs reward. It is cheaper to wardec a small corp than it is to wardec a large one.

They need to balance it out so the cost is based on your corps size vs the opponents size with extra bills if members join or leave.

That way you are better off attacking larger corps and risking more for the reward of more targets.

Believe it or not we actually all (the mercs) had a discussion about this and we pretty much all think it should be the reverse of the current system I.e. it should cost a bigger entity more to Dec a smaller one, and bigger entitys should be cheaper to Dec

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#19 - 2016-11-27 22:44:29 UTC
while we're at its disallow docking once you undock during a war too! and your only way of ever docking again trapped in a perma war is to die! because you know we want you to have it solely your way

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2016-11-27 22:55:17 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
My biggest beef with the Wardec system as it stands is that it is the opposite of risk vs reward. It is cheaper to wardec a small corp than it is to wardec a large one.

They need to balance it out so the cost is based on your corps size vs the opponents size with extra bills if members join or leave.

That way you are better off attacking larger corps and risking more for the reward of more targets.

Believe it or not we actually all (the mercs) had a discussion about this and we pretty much all think it should be the reverse of the current system I.e. it should cost a bigger entity more to Dec a smaller one, and bigger entitys should be cheaper to Dec

I heard about that.

I just wish CCP would actually implement it. Then maybe talking about other parts of the wardec system would be worthwhile.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
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