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New Dev Blog: CSM December summit – meeting minutes are out

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Cash Stalker
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#401 - 2012-01-19 00:24:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Cash Stalker
Cryten Jones wrote:
Cash Stalker wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
Cash Stalker wrote:
one thing that would help is to have the now pvp server we have and a nonpvp server for people like me that like to build and only have to fight npc's.

hmmm... i said this already...lol Ugh



Question: If you are building stuff lets say Zealots for example, on a non pvp server, who is buying them?

Please tell me I am falling for a troll.

lol... please.... nonplayer markets has been around forever. Roll



I can recommend the 'X' games for a single player game with a good NPC market......

there is only two games i like, wow and eve.
thats it.
everything else is crap. ( Boreinggggggggggggg)
and wow likes to keep people as noobs.( not this noob) Blink
and so i get to help with the tests and stay to build.
witch helps for lookout for bugs in the building part.
and yes i do have open accounts. just siting there training.
ill stay on the test server i guess unless they come out with a server i like.
or they kick me off but i dont see that happening. i dont pvp so they let me stay and help.
Cash Stalker
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#402 - 2012-01-19 00:31:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Cash Stalker
a lot of my posts are geting repeated from people not reading past posts. Roll
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#403 - 2012-01-19 00:34:39 UTC
Kamuria wrote:
I'm surprised there's nothing said about the bad sound engine. We need someone on the CSM that plays with sound ON.


I play with sound on. Do you have a specific problem with EVE's sound?

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Kamuria
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#404 - 2012-01-19 01:00:21 UTC
Two step wrote:
Kamuria wrote:
I'm surprised there's nothing said about the bad sound engine. We need someone on the CSM that plays with sound ON.


I play with sound on. Do you have a specific problem with EVE's sound?



Sure, most sounds get stuck into an infinite loop and the only way to fix it is to disable and enable sound. Even if you dock you can still hear some sounds looping infinitely, rat sounds, warp gate sound, tractor beam or salvager sounds.... This has been going on for 2 years now and I tried 2 different audio cards with latest drivers. Since I experience sound problems only in Eve, my hardware is not to blame. Also the jukebox playing 1 song, then looping like crazy...

Maybe those problems are related to specific sound cards... but having an integrated sound card on a 1 1/2 years old motherboard and a sound blaster X-FI titanium Fatality, something tells me the sound engine isn't up-to-date, so it clashes with certain hardware.
I play many games, the audio is NEVER a problem, except in Eve.
Raid'En
#405 - 2012-01-19 01:01:18 UTC
Two step wrote:
Kamuria wrote:
I'm surprised there's nothing said about the bad sound engine. We need someone on the CSM that plays with sound ON.


I play with sound on. Do you have a specific problem with EVE's sound?

wait...
EVE has sound ?! Shocked
Cash Stalker
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#406 - 2012-01-19 01:11:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Cash Stalker
lol...good oneLol

but ya i have the same thing happening to me as well at times.

i do need to get a new sound card but yet to find one i like.
but i like the sound editing you get from sb cards.
i buy them just for that.

one sb card i got the other day only words on win 7.
im a xp person. dont like win 7.
so i had to send it back.
if i cound get a sound editor i like i have seen some good sound cards but they cost a lot.
about $300
Manji Lee
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#407 - 2012-01-19 01:19:18 UTC
Kamuria wrote:
Two step wrote:
Kamuria wrote:
I'm surprised there's nothing said about the bad sound engine. We need someone on the CSM that plays with sound ON.


I play with sound on. Do you have a specific problem with EVE's sound?



Sure, most sounds get stuck into an infinite loop and the only way to fix it is to disable and enable sound. Even if you dock you can still hear some sounds looping infinitely, rat sounds, warp gate sound, tractor beam or salvager sounds.... This has been going on for 2 years now and I tried 2 different audio cards with latest drivers. Since I experience sound problems only in Eve, my hardware is not to blame. Also the jukebox playing 1 song, then looping like crazy...

Maybe those problems are related to specific sound cards... but having an integrated sound card on a 1 1/2 years old motherboard and a sound blaster X-FI titanium Fatality, something tells me the sound engine isn't up-to-date, so it clashes with certain hardware.
I play many games, the audio is NEVER a problem, except in Eve.



This is an old issue that was never fix for about 2 years now... I had played eve on separates rigs(mostly intel inboard or turtle rock sound cards) over the past and still experience the same problem over and over.
Cash Stalker
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#408 - 2012-01-19 01:20:56 UTC
ya the sound just keeps looping instead of stoping when the job is done.
Cash Stalker
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#409 - 2012-01-19 01:24:16 UTC
one other bug i reported is the lab seting will not work.
if you try to change it when you hit ok it just stays the way it was.
thats on both tower and stations labs
Kamuria
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#410 - 2012-01-19 01:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kamuria
Manji Lee wrote:
Kamuria wrote:
Two step wrote:
Kamuria wrote:
I'm surprised there's nothing said about the bad sound engine. We need someone on the CSM that plays with sound ON.


I play with sound on. Do you have a specific problem with EVE's sound?



Sure, most sounds get stuck into an infinite loop and the only way to fix it is to disable and enable sound. Even if you dock you can still hear some sounds looping infinitely, rat sounds, warp gate sound, tractor beam or salvager sounds.... This has been going on for 2 years now and I tried 2 different audio cards with latest drivers. Since I experience sound problems only in Eve, my hardware is not to blame. Also the jukebox playing 1 song, then looping like crazy...

Maybe those problems are related to specific sound cards... but having an integrated sound card on a 1 1/2 years old motherboard and a sound blaster X-FI titanium Fatality, something tells me the sound engine isn't up-to-date, so it clashes with certain hardware.
I play many games, the audio is NEVER a problem, except in Eve.



This is an old issue that was never fix for about 2 years now... I had played eve on separates rigs(mostly intel inboard or turtle rock sound cards) over the past and still experience the same problem over and over.


Yeah 2 years, no fix, no mention from the past CSM, nor this one and not a single mention of sound improving in the december summit (which presents what's coming in 2012) and on top of that a few unanswered/dead end bug reports...

Someone needs to step up... 2 years man, 2 long freaking years !!!
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#411 - 2012-01-19 02:02:05 UTC
All righty then - I'm not going to comment on a lot of things, because they're either outside my experience, or outside my interests!


So let me start: As a WH dweller I would *LOVE* the ability to Jumpclone in WH space! TOTALLY LOVE IT! Having said that, it is almost as abysmal an idea as the "wormhole stabilization" mod!


When you get attacked, or attack someone else, part of the battle of attrition, is pods. If you pod your enemies out, they are *OUT* of the fight until they reach thier K-space link or are scanned back in. You get invaded an pop a bunch of pods, crash holes, mop up, -OR-, you invade, pop pods, crash holes, mop up (there is a lot more involved, of course, but that is the idea). With Jump Clone ability in WH's it removes one of the "terrors of being in the unknown", namely, pod death. Get Podded, get right back into the fight. My corps ability to control wormholes and provide podded members entry back into the fight, and deny entry to the enemy was an awesome display of co-operation and team work, and ultimately let us achieve our goals at the time.


WH Stabilizing Mod: No, just freaking *NO*! If you think (and apparently, some people do) that fortress systems are "too safe", wait until every C-6 corp or alliance can stretch/hold a WH into another space. The established corps will have no problem what-so-ever with "utilizing to the fullest" this mechanic. As has been said before, the unique nature of WH's is what attracted many people to non-sov 0.0. Please don't import problems from K-Space Sov 0.0 into wormholes.


Just an FYI - you don't chain crash WH's to find the "1 of 100" your looking for. You use scan alts to check the static holes out, every day, until you find a nice quiet 0.0 or low-sec entrance and then sneak your ships in. Chain crashing is *one* method of getting your caps from point "A" to point "B" - but not the only one, and certainly not necessarily the best... I've seen both methods of moving around, through and between - both have their places, but if you put a MOD in game that actually defeats the best part of a feature, how the hell is that an improvement?


Plutonian wrote:
We've yet to talk to WH space, but we're pretty sure they don't want you either.

WH space checking in! Nope, we don't want them either! (Null Alliances in WH space, or their ideas). WH's are unique, let's keep them that way!

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Amelia Diamant
Perkone
Caldari State
#412 - 2012-01-19 02:08:43 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Amelia Diamant wrote:
My main objection is to being able to be camped in lowsec by one dude in a BC. This could be implemented pretty easily. Though I am sure many people would object to this, it seems pretty good to me C:


If you're running logistics for an alliance, why is a bunch of guys in battlecruisers and frigates scary to you?

Don't you guys defend your supply lines? Don't you have staging POSes specifically to allow freighters to jump in and immediately be swallowed up by the loving comfort of POS shields while under the watchful eye of a sky filled with light/medium batteries?


Actually, I don't do alliance logistics. Black Frog operates in NPC nullsec and lowsec on behalf of...anybody. We aren't jumping into, or out of space that is secure, nor do we have any means or desire to secure it. All we wanna do is get in, and out again. As it is, we charge double for nullsec contracts due to the chance of being camped in by bubbles (a serious waste of our time). But the chance of one dude in a BC or bigger being on a given lowsec undock is larger than a dictor being on a given NPC station (and I speak from vast experience here).

I know our concern is a niche case, but it doesn't change the fact that the spool up change will have no effect on alliance JF pilots (as you say, their routes are generally secure), which means that the primary PURPOSE behind the change (alliance power projection) isn't in play when applied to JFs. Therefore, there is no reason for the change to be applied to JFs.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#413 - 2012-01-19 02:31:52 UTC
Amelia Diamant wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Amelia Diamant wrote:
My main objection is to being able to be camped in lowsec by one dude in a BC. This could be implemented pretty easily. Though I am sure many people would object to this, it seems pretty good to me C:


If you're running logistics for an alliance, why is a bunch of guys in battlecruisers and frigates scary to you?

Don't you guys defend your supply lines? Don't you have staging POSes specifically to allow freighters to jump in and immediately be swallowed up by the loving comfort of POS shields while under the watchful eye of a sky filled with light/medium batteries?


Actually, I don't do alliance logistics. Black Frog operates in NPC nullsec and lowsec on behalf of...anybody. We aren't jumping into, or out of space that is secure, nor do we have any means or desire to secure it. All we wanna do is get in, and out again. As it is, we charge double for nullsec contracts due to the chance of being camped in by bubbles (a serious waste of our time). But the chance of one dude in a BC or bigger being on a given lowsec undock is larger than a dictor being on a given NPC station (and I speak from vast experience here).

I know our concern is a niche case, but it doesn't change the fact that the spool up change will have no effect on alliance JF pilots (as you say, their routes are generally secure), which means that the primary PURPOSE behind the change (alliance power projection) isn't in play when applied to JFs. Therefore, there is no reason for the change to be applied to JFs.


Yeah, the services provided by BFF are definitely valuable. I'm down for keeping current cyno mechanics for JFs - because it would become almost impossible under the new system.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#414 - 2012-01-19 02:37:27 UTC
Kamuria wrote:
Manji Lee wrote:
Kamuria wrote:
Two step wrote:
Kamuria wrote:
I'm surprised there's nothing said about the bad sound engine. We need someone on the CSM that plays with sound ON.


I play with sound on. Do you have a specific problem with EVE's sound?



Sure, most sounds get stuck into an infinite loop and the only way to fix it is to disable and enable sound. Even if you dock you can still hear some sounds looping infinitely, rat sounds, warp gate sound, tractor beam or salvager sounds.... This has been going on for 2 years now and I tried 2 different audio cards with latest drivers. Since I experience sound problems only in Eve, my hardware is not to blame. Also the jukebox playing 1 song, then looping like crazy...

Maybe those problems are related to specific sound cards... but having an integrated sound card on a 1 1/2 years old motherboard and a sound blaster X-FI titanium Fatality, something tells me the sound engine isn't up-to-date, so it clashes with certain hardware.
I play many games, the audio is NEVER a problem, except in Eve.



This is an old issue that was never fix for about 2 years now... I had played eve on separates rigs(mostly intel inboard or turtle rock sound cards) over the past and still experience the same problem over and over.


Yeah 2 years, no fix, no mention from the past CSM, nor this one and not a single mention of sound improving in the december summit (which presents what's coming in 2012) and on top of that a few unanswered/dead end bug reports...

Someone needs to step up... 2 years man, 2 long freaking years !!!


Do any of the folks who have this issue have a bug report # for me? I will follow up with CCP tomorrow and see what I can do.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#415 - 2012-01-19 02:42:07 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
All righty then - I'm not going to comment on a lot of things, because they're either outside my experience, or outside my interests!


So let me start: As a WH dweller I would *LOVE* the ability to Jumpclone in WH space! TOTALLY LOVE IT! Having said that, it is almost as abysmal an idea as the "wormhole stabilization" mod!


When you get attacked, or attack someone else, part of the battle of attrition, is pods. If you pod your enemies out, they are *OUT* of the fight until they reach thier K-space link or are scanned back in. You get invaded an pop a bunch of pods, crash holes, mop up, -OR-, you invade, pop pods, crash holes, mop up (there is a lot more involved, of course, but that is the idea). With Jump Clone ability in WH's it removes one of the "terrors of being in the unknown", namely, pod death. Get Podded, get right back into the fight. My corps ability to control wormholes and provide podded members entry back into the fight, and deny entry to the enemy was an awesome display of co-operation and team work, and ultimately let us achieve our goals at the time.


Sorry if the minutes weren't clear about this, but the idea was to provide a way for w-space people to *switch* clones inside the hole, not clone jump in and out of w-space. This would let pilots switch between a Slave set clone and a Talisman clone, for example.

Quote:

WH Stabilizing Mod: No, just freaking *NO*! If you think (and apparently, some people do) that fortress systems are "too safe", wait until every C-6 corp or alliance can stretch/hold a WH into another space. The established corps will have no problem what-so-ever with "utilizing to the fullest" this mechanic. As has been said before, the unique nature of WH's is what attracted many people to non-sov 0.0. Please don't import problems from K-Space Sov 0.0 into wormholes.


Just an FYI - you don't chain crash WH's to find the "1 of 100" your looking for. You use scan alts to check the static holes out, every day, until you find a nice quiet 0.0 or low-sec entrance and then sneak your ships in. Chain crashing is *one* method of getting your caps from point "A" to point "B" - but not the only one, and certainly not necessarily the best... I've seen both methods of moving around, through and between - both have their places, but if you put a MOD in game that actually defeats the best part of a feature, how the hell is that an improvement?


I talk about this stuff in some detail on my blog, check the link in my sig.

Quote:

Plutonian wrote:
We've yet to talk to WH space, but we're pretty sure they don't want you either.

WH space checking in! Nope, we don't want them either! (Null Alliances in WH space, or their ideas). WH's are unique, let's keep them that way!


I actually disagree. We need targets.... :)

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
#416 - 2012-01-19 04:22:01 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:

Inactive accounts should be deleted, along with all game assets, after a short grace period (to allow for resub mistakes).

60 days from the account going dark should be enough, and 90 days would be plenty, by any reasonable definition. If after that, the person decides not to re-sub, then it's not un-reasonable to assume that they almost certainly never will.

Wat. This is provably wrong and is extremely short sighted.

Not really, Liang. And, if I had access to the CCP's account database server, I could probably prove it to your satisfaction.

Resubs are a very, very small percentage of any game's player base. Dedicating company resources to specifically support or attract resubs usually only occurs when new sub numbers are way down, and typically indicate a failure on the part of the sales and marketing dept to come up with any better ideas to increase new sub rates (funny thing is that most resubs actually occur due to being attracted by marketing directed towards new subs, and rarely to any resub-specific incentives). But, in any case, It certainly isn't the smart way to grow a game business, since you can never substantially replenish player attrition via resubs.

Also, remember that, in Eve, older resubs are going to be typically far, far behind the curve in terms of SP and you can't make that up. Who really wants to have a 4 year old PVP toon with less than 5M SP? Looks pretty stupid on the killboards when you get popped by a 6 month old. And, many folks don't want to bother chasing down a bunch of assets, located in forgotten places, which may or may not have any value under the current game mechanics. There are many dis-incentives to resubbing an old account, and often folks prefer to start fresh with a new account. Sure, there are some well-heeled and high SP resubs (such as Letrange), but, out of an active subscriber base of 300K (or whatever it is today), I'd be comfortable arguing that they are the exceptions, and not the norm.

So, why not just leave the inactive account data on the computers? What's the big deal, right? Well...

Inactive accounts - in any large database - consume a great deal of resources. Database tables become excessively large, and search times scale up quickly. Performance drops. The options at this point are limited to (a) buying a bigger and more powerful database server, or (b) pruning the database of inactive accounts. Solution (a) is bad because it cost a lot more money and is only a temporary fix - you run into the same problem again and again as the database continues to grow with inactive accounts. Solution (b) is simply far more economical and practical.

But, let's go back to the *real* issue....

Do you really want new game features to be restricted or veto'ed simply because such features might negatively impact folks who are no longer playing the game? I don't.


Pull them from the live database.. all their assets and whatnot.. put them into a hibernation database that gets searched once that account/player resubs.. add his stuff to the live database at this point.

Profit?
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
#417 - 2012-01-19 04:25:55 UTC
Cash Stalker wrote:
one thing that would help is to have the now pvp server we have and a nonpvp server for people like me that like to build and only have to fight npc's.

hmmm... i said this already...lol Ugh

Cash.. it seems no one has told you yet, but EVE is not the game for you, sorry pal.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#418 - 2012-01-19 04:43:19 UTC
Boost the ISK payout for missions performed in lo-sec areas by another 25-30% and boost the LP payouts for missions performed in lo-sec by 80-100% and you might actually draw people out into running missions in lo-sec areas. With the increased payout, it would be more rewarding for them to fly in pairs/teams while grinding out L4 missions. Maybe even lucrative enough to balance the danger.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#419 - 2012-01-19 04:59:04 UTC
Tres Farmer wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:

Inactive accounts - in any large database - consume a great deal of resources. Database tables become excessively large, and search times scale up quickly. Performance drops. The options at this point are limited to (a) buying a bigger and more powerful database server, or (b) pruning the database of inactive accounts. Solution (a) is bad because it cost a lot more money and is only a temporary fix - you run into the same problem again and again as the database continues to grow with inactive accounts. Solution (b) is simply far more economical and practical.

Pull them from the live database.. all their assets and whatnot.. put them into a hibernation database that gets searched once that account/player resubs.. add his stuff to the live database at this point.

Nice thinking to pull and save the player's account data before pruning it from the live database. I guess I'm just not that nice... lol.

Implementation-wise, I'd probably avoid creating a hibernation database, though. You'd have to maintain compatibility with the live database, esp. when fundamental changes are made to old items - such as changing slots on a ship - which can be problematic. I'd probably opt for just storing the player data offline in an XML file, which is easy to compress and takes up very little space. If the player resubs, then an import function can be used to convert the XML data to the most current database format and reinsert it to the live database.

But, this is just off the top of my head - Liang probably has a much better idea as to how this might be done.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#420 - 2012-01-19 05:26:59 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Boost the ISK payout for missions performed in lo-sec areas by another 25-30% and boost the LP payouts for missions performed in lo-sec by 80-100% and you might actually draw people out into running missions in lo-sec areas. With the increased payout, it would be more rewarding for them to fly in pairs/teams while grinding out L4 missions. Maybe even lucrative enough to balance the danger.

Do you really think this will work, Bob? I'm somewhat doubtful.

Last time I tried to run a mission in low sec (which admittedly was a very long time ago), I found myself flying back to high sec in my pod within 15 minutes - not nearly long enough for me to complete the mission. Doggone low sec pirates are just too good at what they like to do. :)

To be successful in running missions in low sec (excepting courier missions), you'd need to be able to fit your ship for both PVP and PVE, which typicallly fails at both. Or take along a mixed gang of PVP and PVE ships - which would also be problematical since your opponents are going to be all fit for PVP.

And, as long as high sec L4's can be run virtually risk-free and semi-AFK, I think you'll see most PVE players opting to just farm them for ISK, ad nauseum, irregardless of greater rewards from low sec missions.

Make it more difficult to farm high sec L4's and then maybe you'd see a bit more traffic to low sec missions. But, even so, I'd remain doubtful 'cause of the PVE vs PVP ship issues.

BTW, if you do want the higher mission rewards with a bit of risk, then you are probably better off taking a group to null sec, to run sanctums. Assuming that you are blue to the sov holders, your risk level is much lower than in low sec and the payoff is much higher.