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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#7601 - 2016-11-22 17:32:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Vendo Carllsmann wrote:
Not sure if this has come up as an idea but here goes anyway:

I would like to see a cloak inhibitor, similar to the cyno inhibitor for Sov Nullsec. Maybe you could have a cloak strength score according to trained skills and mods/rigs attached to you ship similar to scan strength or warp core stability. The various meta levels of Cloaking Inhibitor also have different strengths and decloak times. When it fires you compare the cloaked ships' cloak strength against the Inhibitor strength similar to warp core stability. If the inhibitor is equal or greater the ship is decloaked for a period equal to the difference in strength +1.

So, a couple of examples:

A pilot with cloaking 2 in a Probe comes into your system with a Prototype Cloaking Device installed. His ship therefore has a cloak strength of 2 (skill) + 2 (ship) + 1 (Cloaking device) =5

The Cloak Inhibitor T1 has a strength of 10 so the Probe is decloaked for 6 minutes

Another example:

A Pilot with Cloaking V in an Arazu with a Covert Cloak and a (new) Cloak Stabilizer comes in.

She has a cloak str of 5+5+5+1=16

The T1 Cloak Inhibitor fails to decloak it.
However a T2 Cloak Inhibitor has a strength of 20 and would destabilize the cloak for 5 mins.

Obviously the scores would need balancing but you get the idea. You could also have a High Slot module fitted to a ship doing a similar thing, maybe on a new ECM Destroyer?

Or, going within the new command burst meta, a command module which decloaks everything in the command burst range.


Both are interesting ideas which you should develop further especially the command burst module which could have a range in AU which requires people to have to warp around a bit so it is not an easy click button and result sort of thing. And no this should not be linked to local like the trolls have suggested... yawn...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7602 - 2016-11-22 17:38:00 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Both are interesting ideas which you should develop further especially the command burst module which could have a range in AU which requires people to have to warp around a bit so it is not an easy click button and result sort of thing. And no this should not be linked to local like the trolls have suggested... yawn...


Yes it has to be linked to local. You can't have your 100% risk free ratting/mining/bearing in null.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7603 - 2016-11-22 17:39:26 UTC
If local were not part of the equation then how would you know an AFK cloaker was in system?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7604 - 2016-11-22 18:05:13 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Vendo Carllsmann wrote:
Not sure if this has come up as an idea but here goes anyway:

I would like to see a cloak inhibitor, similar to the cyno inhibitor for Sov Nullsec. Maybe you could have a cloak strength score according to trained skills and mods/rigs attached to you ship similar to scan strength or warp core stability. The various meta levels of Cloaking Inhibitor also have different strengths and decloak times. When it fires you compare the cloaked ships' cloak strength against the Inhibitor strength similar to warp core stability. If the inhibitor is equal or greater the ship is decloaked for a period equal to the difference in strength +1.

So, a couple of examples:

A pilot with cloaking 2 in a Probe comes into your system with a Prototype Cloaking Device installed. His ship therefore has a cloak strength of 2 (skill) + 2 (ship) + 1 (Cloaking device) =5

The Cloak Inhibitor T1 has a strength of 10 so the Probe is decloaked for 6 minutes

Another example:

A Pilot with Cloaking V in an Arazu with a Covert Cloak and a (new) Cloak Stabilizer comes in.

She has a cloak str of 5+5+5+1=16

The T1 Cloak Inhibitor fails to decloak it.
However a T2 Cloak Inhibitor has a strength of 20 and would destabilize the cloak for 5 mins.

Obviously the scores would need balancing but you get the idea. You could also have a High Slot module fitted to a ship doing a similar thing, maybe on a new ECM Destroyer?

Or, going within the new command burst meta, a command module which decloaks everything in the command burst range.


I'd be OK with something like that as long as it's combined with some sort of nerf to local chat. You can't nerf cloaking without nerfing local in sov null.

Give a structure that provides local that I can take down to disable or delay it, and I'm on board.


Or bundle it with this new structure. You anchor this thing and the use of cloaks becomes more tricky, but at the same time local becomes delayed or something like that. Everything should come with a cost.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7605 - 2016-11-22 18:09:16 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


Both are interesting ideas which you should develop further especially the command burst module which could have a range in AU which requires people to have to warp around a bit so it is not an easy click button and result sort of thing. And no this should not be linked to local like the trolls have suggested... yawn...


Oh look who crawled out from under his rock. I thought you were quitting. There go the housing values.

Of course it has to be linked to local. Local is clearly already quite powerful, this kind of device with local and you might as well make anomalies their own instance a la WoW where nobody can enter them.

Also, it cannot be deployed on any grid with a gate/bridge/station/outputs/citadels. If you want to use this for your ratting fine, but letting it be used near a gate and it will be a requirement for every gate camp, and CCP has been quite clear that when something is a must have item/fitting/etc. it is not well balanced.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#7606 - 2016-11-22 18:59:43 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Both are interesting ideas which you should develop further especially the command burst module which could have a range in AU which requires people to have to warp around a bit so it is not an easy click button and result sort of thing. And no this should not be linked to local like the trolls have suggested... yawn...


Oh look who crawled out from under his rock. I thought you were quitting. There go the housing values.

Of course it has to be linked to local. Local is clearly already quite powerful, this kind of device with local and you might as well make anomalies their own instance a la WoW where nobody can enter them.

Also, it cannot be deployed on any grid with a gate/bridge/station/outputs/citadels. If you want to use this for your ratting fine, but letting it be used near a gate and it will be a requirement for every gate camp, and CCP has been quite clear that when something is a must have item/fitting/etc. it is not well balanced.


Well I have de-subbed, but I can now log on with an Alpha clone so I can at least track what is going on and see if the game has reached some sort of common sense that would entice me to spend money on it again. I only go into space with my alts not going to sully my mains with Alpha clones old boy!!!

I assumed that you are aware that my comments are based on the new OA's being the structures that will give local in sov space and that means that you can remove them by simply shooting them, I just see no reason to put a delay on local because of that, you should shoot them if you want to impact local, simple as that.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7607 - 2016-11-22 19:11:55 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


Well I have de-subbed, but I can now log on with an Alpha clone so I can at least track what is going on and see if the game has reached some sort of common sense that would entice me to spend money on it again. I only go into space with my alts not going to sully my mains with Alpha clones old boy!!!

I assumed that you are aware that my comments are based on the new OA's being the structures that will give local in sov space and that means that you can remove them by simply shooting them, I just see no reason to put a delay on local because of that, you should shoot them if you want to impact local, simple as that.


Typical...."Hi, you silly boy, I had an unstated assumption you should have realized I had."

Yes, your usual disingenuous and intellectually dishonest self.

Frankly, with the OA, AFK cloaking will not be a thing, so no need for this structure. But then we know you just don't like cloaks at all, so it is not surprising you would support it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#7608 - 2016-11-22 19:24:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Well I have de-subbed, but I can now log on with an Alpha clone so I can at least track what is going on and see if the game has reached some sort of common sense that would entice me to spend money on it again. I only go into space with my alts not going to sully my mains with Alpha clones old boy!!!

I assumed that you are aware that my comments are based on the new OA's being the structures that will give local in sov space and that means that you can remove them by simply shooting them, I just see no reason to put a delay on local because of that, you should shoot them if you want to impact local, simple as that.


Typical...."Hi, you silly boy, I had an unstated assumption you should have realized I had."

Yes, your usual disingenuous and intellectually dishonest self.

Frankly, with the OA, AFK cloaking will not be a thing, so no need for this structure. But then we know you just don't like cloaks at all, so it is not surprising you would support it.


Silly boy it was not a dig, I was clarifying a point that I made quite often that local will be replaced by a OA in sov space, as far as I am concerned that is a given, nothing about being dishonest or disingenuous, furthermore I like cloaks and my suggestions have always been to limit any impact to them as much as possible, as you are aware my AFK flag was suggested because I did not want to impact cloaks at all, this suggestion by Vendo Carllsmann I could live with, its not perfect for me as I don't want to see cloaks ruined, but as I said I could live with it.

You have not changed at all, in fact you seem to have got worse...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7609 - 2016-11-22 19:42:18 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
I like cloaks and my suggestions have always been to limit any impact to them as much as possible


Limiting impact to them is changing nothing, given there isn't a problem with them.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#7610 - 2016-11-22 19:51:36 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I like cloaks and my suggestions have always been to limit any impact to them as much as possible


Limiting impact to them is changing nothing, given there isn't a problem with them.


Quite right, it is the AFK part that is the issue, AFK cloaky camping, the last AFK impact in the game left untouched by CCP...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7611 - 2016-11-22 20:10:31 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Quite right, it is the AFK part that is the issue, AFK cloaky camping, the last AFK impact in the game left untouched by CCP...


I find it hard to impact anyone when I can't control my keyboard or mouse (being AFK). Again, nothing to change here.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#7612 - 2016-11-22 20:43:06 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Quite right, it is the AFK part that is the issue, AFK cloaky camping, the last AFK impact in the game left untouched by CCP...


I find it hard to impact anyone when I can't control my keyboard or mouse (being AFK). Again, nothing to change here.


But of course I don't know that the person is AFK, he could be sitting right next to me with a 10 man BLOP's fleet about to jump in.

Lets shift to a WH system, assuming that I have scouts on all the entry points I note an enemy come in, I do not see him leave, I have no idea whether he is active or not, perhaps I have a big system and did not note him logging off on D-scan. I control my holes by collapsing them and I have scouts out to spot for incoming fleets, my risk is relatively contained even if he is not AFK because I can bubble the entry points for example but there is nothing I can do to hinder a hot drop. Whort of having a sabre cloaked up ready to bubble them as they are about to jump to the Cyno, and the chances of that are very remote indeed. You are a WH player, simple, you have a lot more control of your risk then a 0.0 player and can take active steps to hinder and impede attackers, 0.0 players do not because the hot drop mechanic is so damn powerful and instant.

So you can go around make smart ass comments as per normal about I am AFK so can't do anything and I will reply because I don't know that you are AFK that is irrelevant and round and round we go again.

CCP has touched every other AFK play style except this one, it is basic stuff.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7613 - 2016-11-22 21:22:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
Dracvlad wrote:
But of course I don't know that the person is AFK, he could be sitting right next to me with a 10 man BLOP's fleet about to jump in.

Lets shift to a WH system, assuming that I have scouts on all the entry points I note an enemy come in, I do not see him leave, I have no idea whether he is active or not, perhaps I have a big system and did not note him logging off on D-scan. I control my holes by collapsing them and I have scouts out to spot for incoming fleets, my risk is relatively contained even if he is not AFK because I can bubble the entry points for example but there is nothing I can do to hinder a hot drop. Whort of having a sabre cloaked up ready to bubble them as they are about to jump to the Cyno, and the chances of that are very remote indeed. You are a WH player, simple, you have a lot more control of your risk then a 0.0 player and can take active steps to hinder and impede attackers, 0.0 players do not because the hot drop mechanic is so damn powerful and instant.

So you can go around make smart ass comments as per normal about I am AFK so can't do anything and I will reply because I don't know that you are AFK that is irrelevant and round and round we go again.

CCP has touched every other AFK play style except this one, it is basic stuff.


Did you really just claim that WHs are safer than null for PvE-ing? Post-watchlists, you have no clue if an entire fleet is waiting in your hole to murder you.

Get in fleet, get on comms, rat in groups, and have a point or two. You know, effort on defense? And don't recruit anyone to null who isn't willing to drop everything to PvP at a moment's notice.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7614 - 2016-11-22 21:39:06 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Well I have de-subbed, but I can now log on with an Alpha clone so I can at least track what is going on and see if the game has reached some sort of common sense that would entice me to spend money on it again. I only go into space with my alts not going to sully my mains with Alpha clones old boy!!!

I assumed that you are aware that my comments are based on the new OA's being the structures that will give local in sov space and that means that you can remove them by simply shooting them, I just see no reason to put a delay on local because of that, you should shoot them if you want to impact local, simple as that.


Typical...."Hi, you silly boy, I had an unstated assumption you should have realized I had."

Yes, your usual disingenuous and intellectually dishonest self.

Frankly, with the OA, AFK cloaking will not be a thing, so no need for this structure. But then we know you just don't like cloaks at all, so it is not surprising you would support it.


Silly boy it was not a dig, I was clarifying a point that I made quite often that local will be replaced by a OA in sov space, as far as I am concerned that is a given, nothing about being dishonest or disingenuous, furthermore I like cloaks and my suggestions have always been to limit any impact to them as much as possible, as you are aware my AFK flag was suggested because I did not want to impact cloaks at all, this suggestion by Vendo Carllsmann I could live with, its not perfect for me as I don't want to see cloaks ruined, but as I said I could live with it.

You have not changed at all, in fact you seem to have got worse...


Right...referring to people providing a serious response to another posters as trolls....that isn't a dig.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#7615 - 2016-11-23 07:40:03 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Right...referring to people providing a serious response to another posters as trolls....that isn't a dig.


It did seem that the other person who I was referring to was doing the same old if you do anything to remove afk cloaky camping then you must remove local trolling bit or make it less instant, that person started again with the lame I am not at my keyboard so no risk troll not long afterwards. What the guy I was replying to had suggested could be designed into something that made it a bit more dangerous to afk camp but required effort to apply. So for example a 1 AU range would require significant effort in big systems and therefore could not justify a delayed local. The ability to shoot the local OA and thus removing local was always on the cards, I hope that CCP make that OA vulnerable when it is active Evil. Thus countering the local being an issue, no delay needed.

For me the simple if you remove AFK cloaky camping as a strategy should be balanced by removing local is a troll, suggesting adjustments to local by forcing a delay is less of a troll, if I was designing a system for this I would require the player to put local impeding module on their ship to create that delay, the full set would be a high a medium and a low module which would give you the maximum delay in being reported so it becomes a real bind in terms of fitting, everything must have a cost don't you agree?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#7616 - 2016-11-23 08:14:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
But of course I don't know that the person is AFK, he could be sitting right next to me with a 10 man BLOP's fleet about to jump in.

Lets shift to a WH system, assuming that I have scouts on all the entry points I note an enemy come in, I do not see him leave, I have no idea whether he is active or not, perhaps I have a big system and did not note him logging off on D-scan. I control my holes by collapsing them and I have scouts out to spot for incoming fleets, my risk is relatively contained even if he is not AFK because I can bubble the entry points for example but there is nothing I can do to hinder a hot drop. Whort of having a sabre cloaked up ready to bubble them as they are about to jump to the Cyno, and the chances of that are very remote indeed. You are a WH player, simple, you have a lot more control of your risk then a 0.0 player and can take active steps to hinder and impede attackers, 0.0 players do not because the hot drop mechanic is so damn powerful and instant.

So you can go around make smart ass comments as per normal about I am AFK so can't do anything and I will reply because I don't know that you are AFK that is irrelevant and round and round we go again.

CCP has touched every other AFK play style except this one, it is basic stuff.


Did you really just claim that WHs are safer than null for PvE-ing? Post-watchlists, you have no clue if an entire fleet is waiting in your hole to murder you.

Get in fleet, get on comms, rat in groups, and have a point or two. You know, effort on defense? And don't recruit anyone to null who isn't willing to drop everything to PvP at a moment's notice.


No, you just suggested that I have claimed that WH's are safer than 0.0, I am exploring the risk side of the equation, obviously you have an issue in understanding risk.

In fact your reply where you talk about a whole fleet waiting in your WH system is very interesting, first of all that takes effort to do and if someone has enough TZ coverage in their hole they will pick up on it. it is not an instant zap from a safe spot hit then get out, but something that takes planning and effort, certainly not a jolly little jump in and out and arrive back for afternoon tea like a 0.0 hot drop hit. That is effort on attack in a WH which is not the same as a hot drop effort in 0.0, so a bit of a counter to your troll sentence at the end of your post, so to emphasise the attacker in a WH is making real effort, not leaving a single lazy character in a 0.0 system, the WH attacker has to make the efforts to do the attack in a WH, not the jolly little jape in 0.0.

Do you get it, I over emphasised it so you could understand it, but I worry that I may just confuse you...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#7617 - 2016-11-23 10:23:15 UTC
So wormholers work for their attack and defence and nullseccers only need to work for the attack, the defence side gets half of the job done for them?

Wormholer for life.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#7618 - 2016-11-23 12:34:54 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
So wormholers work for their attack and defence and nullseccers only need to work for the attack, the defence side gets half of the job done for them?


Roll Troll alert !!!!!!!!!!!!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#7619 - 2016-11-23 15:30:56 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
So wormholers work for their attack and defence and nullseccers only need to work for the attack, the defence side gets half of the job done for them?


Roll Troll alert !!!!!!!!!!!!


The only troll in this thread is you

Wormholer for life.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7620 - 2016-11-23 15:40:15 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
No, you just suggested that I have claimed that WH's are safer than 0.0, I am exploring the risk side of the equation, obviously you have an issue in understanding risk.

In fact your reply where you talk about a whole fleet waiting in your WH system is very interesting, first of all that takes effort to do and if someone has enough TZ coverage in their hole they will pick up on it. it is not an instant zap from a safe spot hit then get out, but something that takes planning and effort, certainly not a jolly little jump in and out and arrive back for afternoon tea like a 0.0 hot drop hit. That is effort on attack in a WH which is not the same as a hot drop effort in 0.0, so a bit of a counter to your troll sentence at the end of your post, so to emphasise the attacker in a WH is making real effort, not leaving a single lazy character in a 0.0 system, the WH attacker has to make the efforts to do the attack in a WH, not the jolly little jape in 0.0.

Do you get it, I over emphasised it so you could understand it, but I worry that I may just confuse you...


I do get it. You're claiming that hot drops take no effort (ridiculous) and that ratters and miners in null shouldn't need to put effort into defending themselves. If nullsec PvE-ers put in time and effort to defend themselves, they would literally never die, given current game mechanics.

Thanks for proving my point.

Didn't you say you were quitting?