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Balancing Feedback: Assault Ships

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Zircon Dasher
#921 - 2012-01-18 15:45:41 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
we're not looking into creating an uber-balanced utopia ala Starcraft II that, once achieved, we can then walk away from. Rather, we want to achieve a more chaotic environment where 'best' fittings change rapidly and the value of items (modules, rigs, ships) is relative based on the current metagame rather than fixed in eternity.


Just gonna leave this here.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Alex Medvedov
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#922 - 2012-01-18 15:56:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Medvedov
Hirana Yoshida wrote:

My final take;
Back to drawing-board and don't even mention any sort of bonus before this pesky question has been answered: What is their role?


Nope, you are wrong about that. The least thing AFs need is to further limit their usage by restricting them to fulfil some so called "role". Their role already exists and it is to deal damage. Or are you implying that Cruisers need a special role as well? What about Battleships or Battlecruisers even? I know BCs were actually supposed to provide bonuses to fleet, but who is actually using them for that?

On one side, some of you guys keep saying that AFs are ignored by majority of Eve players because AFs lack the some defined "role" to fulfil, but do you understand that if you give them one, you are only restricting the field AFs are usable in? Which inevitably means, AFs will actually become even less popular? For example what advantage would actually have an AF with medium sized guns over the actual Cruiser??
Zircon Dasher
#923 - 2012-01-18 16:03:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
What advantage does a Tornado/oracle/talos/naga have over using a BS?

Except in this case it would be compounded.

Edited: because evidently it was not clear what was supposed to fill the blank.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Alex Medvedov
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#924 - 2012-01-18 16:12:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Medvedov
Zircon Dasher wrote:
What advantage does a Tornado/oracle/talos/naga have over.....

Except in this case it would be compounded.


Those are ships of the same class, AFs are still frigates - they would not have option of fitting Cruiser sized modules (other than those medium guns) and therefore would not be able to kill any Cruiser fast enough. You will basically end up with AFs of roughly Cruiser firepower but with much weaker tanks. Besides without small guns Drones would simply obliterate them.
But that was just an example, i dont wish to elaborate on this idea any longer...
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#925 - 2012-01-18 16:18:31 UTC
Alex Medvedov wrote:
Their role already exists and it is to deal damage....

Then why even discuss the merits of a MWD sig reduction as it does not facilitate said role and tracking also does nothing for damage except against a few AB frigs (the only thing in game that can tracking tank small guns to begin with).

If they are to be mini-HACs then design them as such, don't start mixing in destroyer and interceptor traits just because some noob (/me waves to null) might need it the one time per week he flies the damn things.

But of course, that is where the problem lies .. they CAN'T be mini-HACs because they do not have the base EHP and medium tracking is high enough to insta-gib them even if they did.

Which brings me back to: What is their role?
Zircon Dasher
#926 - 2012-01-18 16:26:44 UTC
I am pretty sure that if you blow up 15km from a cruiser the damage you inflicted is much smaller than the damage you *would* have inflicted if you had gotten under 4km on that cruiser. Lol

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Alex Medvedov
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#927 - 2012-01-18 16:33:28 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Alex Medvedov wrote:
Their role already exists and it is to deal damage....

Then why even discuss the merits of a MWD sig reduction as it does not facilitate said role and tracking also does nothing for damage except against a few AB frigs (the only thing in game that can tracking tank small guns to begin with).

If they are to be mini-HACs then design them as such, don't start mixing in destroyer and interceptor traits just because some noob (/me waves to null) might need it the one time per week he flies the damn things.

But of course, that is where the problem lies .. they CAN'T be mini-HACs because they do not have the base EHP and medium tracking is high enough to insta-gib them even if they did.

Which brings me back to: What is their role?


Well you need to be able to survive first to deal some damage, but you are right MWD bonus is not something that would change AFs effectivness dramaticaly. So as far as iam concerned it can go away. But said bonus doesnt limit usability of AFs at least. In contrast to some other "role bonuses" proposed.
You are absolutely wrong about tracking bonus - to survive AFs need to orbit its target fast, and to be able to dispose of its drones, and to be able to hit a Cruiser with the most damging ammo available e.g. Hails effectivelly. Thats why the tracking bonus is nessessary.
Sure they cannot be mini HACs, they are something else, and they are quite good in that already.
Alex Medvedov
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#928 - 2012-01-18 16:36:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Medvedov
Zircon Dasher wrote:
I am pretty sure that if you blow up 15km from a cruiser the damage you inflicted is much smaller than the damage you *would* have inflicted if you had gotten under 4km on that cruiser. Lol

And what about neuts, ECMs, webs and other stuff which is quite of an issue to AFs attacking Cuisers right now? I will guarantee to you that no AF would survive an engagement with plated Rupture, not speaking about droneboats like a VexorLol
Zircon Dasher
#929 - 2012-01-18 17:32:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
nuets, ecm, and bonused drones will always be the bane of AF. Funny, they are also the bane of all other hulls when attacking 1+class up. A nuet domi will roflstomp a solo cane that doesnt leave or gets pinned.

More importantly, Hirana complained that sig bloom bonuses had nothing to do with damage. I was not claiming that MWD makes them uber cruiser-fighting machines. But it does give them a better chance to get in range than without the bonus. All of this is short sighted though because the most significant impact the bloom bonus comes when burning back to gates or out of bubbles.

Does this help the majority of current AF pilots? no. That is because most of the current AF pilots exist in a realm without bubbles and (generally) ****** camps not because it is a terribad bonus.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#930 - 2012-01-18 17:43:42 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
Strange thing is. Assault frigates have been gaining popularity in 0.0 and Interceptors have been declining in use. This is mainly because of pirate and navy faction frigates. Those pilots that understand frigate combat and meta. Know, that most frigate engagements are within warp scrambler range. Applied and projected damage and defence within warp scrambler range is very important (which is why assault frigates have increased in popularity). CCP has been behind the curve. Pilots have been accepting assault ships as pure damage and defence platforms. Look! In real life. Frigates preform a escort, raiding and scouting role. When in large engagements they get toasted. Same thing in eve on-line. Frigates are not optimal for anything other than scouting and ping points in large scale engagements.

Also correction: Fleet Interceptors are terrible @ their niche. Mainly, because of high tracking, long range medium turret vessels. Otherwise they would not be fazing out. The environment changed and Interceptors have no ability to adapt (kinda like blaster). Pilots prefer larger vessels for tackling because of hit-points and velocity = survivability.

Also, because I move around alot and have broad knowledge and experience in most forms of combat (fleet commanding small, medium, large fleet in 0.0 and faction warfare). Solo and small gang pvp) and areas in the galaxy. In large alliances or small corporation. I know there is a serious disdain for frigates within this game. Frigate pilots are a very small (niche) subculture. Alot of pilots in 0.0 and high security space specifically (aslo low security space). Believe frigates are TERRIBLE. For years 0.0 fleets have focused on battleships and expensive tech two vessels for combat. Still do. Low security space and faction warfare in general. Has been a haven for the most unused ships in game (Stabber, Omen, Bellicose, Maller). Alliances and pilots in 0.0 are alot less inclined to experiment and fly sub-optimal ships (serious mode). There was a time where I had no experience or serious insight into fleet warfare. I was always being told by some bros that "proper fleets" were where it was @ and the small gang solo sh!t I do is good for exploding newbs.

Once I made the decision to expand my understanding of that area of combat. I find out that these dudes have no ability to fly their ship properly without hand holding from logistic ship. Most are terrible. These are the kind of pilots who complain about what is and what is not useful in-game. Intercepts had a role bonus. So, assault frigates had to have one to or else they are of no use to pilots who are not able to use any ship without logistics. The biggest thing that is brought up in these large alliances when it comes to frigates. Is that they die to fast and logistics cant help them...

Anyway.

Faction warfare and low security space will always be a bastion for small squad, skirmish and raiding warfare. I think someone was disappointed more pilots were not in low security space. Hope that continues (be glad). Otherwise, more pilots are the death of "small gang" and "solo pvp" (welcome 0.0 blob to low sec).

Assault frigates should focus on damage and have minimal defences. @ the moment. Assault ships have weaknesses that combat Interceptors, Tech one, pirate and navy frigates can exploit to win. These changes make one of the most balanced classes (frigates). Unbalanced. Not to mention, assault frigates are already powerful against larger vessels. The main thing standing in the way of more battle-cruiser and cruiser loss mail is neutralisers.


-proxyyyy
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#931 - 2012-01-18 21:13:44 UTC
I happily welcome the decision to reduce the signature radius addition of using a MWD on an AF yet I think a bonus to afterburners would also do them good. Here's why:
* Afterburners add a certain amount of speed to the ship when activated and they don't blow up the sig radius by any amount.
-HOWEVER-
* MicroWarp Drives add a MASSIVE bonus to speed. this massive bonus is key when you want to catch your target and speed is the main difference between success and failure.
NO, I'm not talking about fleet warfare when interceptors are being used. I'm talking about lower-scale warfare such as solo or small gang with no ceptors, or when AFs are used to intercept.(BTW, in those situations even battlecruisers will act as their own interceptors)

So what should be the buff is either one of the following two options:
1. Afterburners will get a bonus from AFs that will make their use as effective as MWDs, OR
2. Reduce the signature radius exploding when using a MWD.

My suggestion: Flip a coin.
Zircon Dasher
#932 - 2012-01-18 21:43:44 UTC
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
So what should be the buff is either one of the following two options:
1. Afterburners will get a bonus from AFs that will make their use as effective as MWDs, OR
2. Reduce the signature radius exploding when using a MWD.

My suggestion: Flip a coin.


Looks like they chose option #2. Glad to see you think it is a good idea

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#933 - 2012-01-19 00:04:10 UTC
For the love of god proxyyy, learn how to write in sentences!
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#934 - 2012-01-19 00:11:40 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
For the love of god proxyyy, learn how to write in sentences!


No! It's to hard and i don't want to put much effort into it. Also, its not very boss if i did care...
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#935 - 2012-01-19 01:57:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Alex Medvedov wrote:
Their role already exists and it is to deal damage....

Then why even discuss the merits of a MWD sig reduction as it does not facilitate said role and tracking also does nothing for damage except against a few AB frigs (the only thing in game that can tracking tank small guns to begin with).

If they are to be mini-HACs then design them as such, don't start mixing in destroyer and interceptor traits just because some noob (/me waves to null) might need it the one time per week he flies the damn things.

But of course, that is where the problem lies .. they CAN'T be mini-HACs because they do not have the base EHP and medium tracking is high enough to insta-gib them even if they did.

Which brings me back to: What is their role?

A tracking bonus is a means to mitigate damage against larger targets' drones. It's a really simple mechanic really, perhaps you should try the ships out yourself and give it a try. The MWD bonus allows the ships to move at speed about without getting one-vollied. You want to know why AFs aren't flown outside of Empire, that's why. They turn on their MWD and they simply explode. There is no other way around it, and AB speeds are far too low for a frigate in lawless space.

AFs have always been spiritual successor to Destroyers.
In a way they are the ying to the others yang. AFs are rivals to Destroyers, but handle larger targets better. Destroyers are rivals to AFs, but handle Frigates far better. Destroyers are cheap to train, fit and buy, are extremely effective, and are very expendable for new players. AFs are expensive to train, fit and buy, are extremely effective, and not anywhere near as expendable as a Destroyer or T1 Frigates.

AFs certainly have the EHP and medium tracking isn't high enough (paired with mwd+bonus) to intstagib the ships.
They have enough buffer and speed to burn in and get under gun tracking. Try it.



m0cking bird wrote:
Strange thing is. Assault frigates have been gaining popularity in 0.0 and Interceptors have been declining in use. This is mainly because of pirate and navy faction frigates. Those pilots that understand frigate combat and meta. Know, that most frigate engagements are within warp scrambler range. Applied and projected damage and defence within warp scrambler range is very important (which is why assault frigates have increased in popularity). CCP has been behind the curve. Pilots have been accepting assault ships as pure damage and defence platforms. Look! In real life. Frigates preform a escort, raiding and scouting role. When in large engagements they get toasted. Same thing in eve on-line. Frigates are not optimal for anything other than scouting and ping points in large scale engagements.

So so so wrong. I'm in 00 every day and I rarely see AFs anywhere. Destroyers, Interdictors, Navy/Pirate frigs, or Interceptors are all better choices. The spike you may have noticed was when Crucible was released and people wanted to give them a go with the new changes. AFs are still incredibly rare outside of empire space.

m0cking bird wrote:
Assault ships have weaknesses that combat Interceptors, Tech one, pirate and navy frigates can exploit to win. These changes make one of the most balanced classes (frigates). Unbalanced. Not to mention, assault frigates are already powerful against larger vessels. The main thing standing in the way of more battle-cruiser and cruiser loss mail is neutralisers.
Also wrong. The bad AFs have weaknesses. AFs are the heavy combat frigates. They already do, and should continue to, shred other Frigates. T1 Cruisers & Recons don't typically stand a chance against HACs, so by comparison neither should the *lighter* T2 combat frigates & T1 frigates. AFs are also pretty bad against larger ships. They need a direct warp-in at least, as they are cannon fodder on approach otherwise.

I truly can't believe you guys are crying that your 500k isk Rifters (or whatever t1), which takes minimum of 70k SP to fly, won't be able to handily kill a 25m Wolf (or whatever other heavy combat AF), which requires an absolute minimum of 1+mil SP to board. You can't really be serious. You could train a Thrasher up to Destroyers 5 in less than half that time, save a ton of isk, and make AF pilots sweat with ease. To top it all off, nobody is going to buy an AF on a regular basis if they don't have all the appropriate skills to a significantly high level. It's far more effective for pvp (and on the wallet) for said pilot to spend the time flying Destroyers or T1 Frigates before jumping into the occasional AF.

You can't honestly think that the majority of FW guys (for example) who lose numerous T1 frigates a day are going to be able to afford the same volume of AFs. 5 fully t2 fit Rifters for under 20mil, cool! 5 t2 fit AFs for ~120mil, not so cool. Roll

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#936 - 2012-01-19 01:58:52 UTC
FFS - you guys realize that with the extra mids many of these AF can now use dual propulsion, right?!? You get the best of both worlds. Get on top of the target using the MWD. Then go to AB.

When I started the game the first look I had of AF was via missions. I learned real fast to kill them before they got under my guns. These changes allow that to happen. You get under the guns of a bigger ship and you are the most annoying tick in the world. 250 - 400 DPS and 10k EHP = get him off!

One other point I'd like to make is that I completely fit my AF depending on what I want to hunt. If I'm going after bigger ships I will forego that TE on my Wolf for example to get a little more tank. I might downgrade my guns to the next tier for a better buffer tank too. If I fit for frigates - I'll have more gank and less tank. It's not all cookie cutter.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#937 - 2012-01-19 05:01:31 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
FFS - you guys realize that with the extra mids many of these AF can now use dual propulsion, right?!? You get the best of both worlds. Get on top of the target using the MWD. Then go to AB.

When I started the game the first look I had of AF was via missions. I learned real fast to kill them before they got under my guns. These changes allow that to happen. You get under the guns of a bigger ship and you are the most annoying tick in the world. 250 - 400 DPS and 10k EHP = get him off!

One other point I'd like to make is that I completely fit my AF depending on what I want to hunt. If I'm going after bigger ships I will forego that TE on my Wolf for example to get a little more tank. I might downgrade my guns to the next tier for a better buffer tank too. If I fit for frigates - I'll have more gank and less tank. It's not all cookie cutter.


Kinda strange. Interesting, I tend to see mostly Pirate faction frigates in null sec. Then Interceptors, Navy faction, tech one, and assault frigates (in low security space you see alot of pirate faction, navy faction frigates and tech one frigates. Then assault frigates and Interceptor) . Not to long ago I was hard pressed to find one assault frigate @ all in null sec (mostly pirate faction frigates). I suppose I'm seeing things...

Also, currently all assault frigates have weaknesses. I could go into some. However, they;ve been mentioned by other posters if anyone is inclined to go back to page one of this thread.

Many pilots set-up ship for what they intend to do. I use to have Drakes set-up for solo and one for fleet. Same with alot of ships. However, ships I use to solo are more well rounded.


There's no question that pilots would do the same with these ships (fleet and solo set-ups).


-proxyyyy
Savoth
#938 - 2012-01-19 05:59:16 UTC
That is a lot of posts to go through...

Anyways, my biggest problem with frigs has always been the capacitor. It's why I won't run a MWD on an AF, and it's why cruisers and BCs will fit neuts in utility highs. So, since the role of an AF is assaulting, (I guess?) and not intercepting, shouldn't the issue of capacitor be addressed? Like a role bonus to cap recharging?
Bent Barrel
#939 - 2012-01-19 08:48:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Bent Barrel
nah, forget it ...
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#940 - 2012-01-19 13:41:39 UTC
Crucible features page indicates this is rolling out on Tuesday. If you subtract out the weekend, CCP Tallest should update today, tomorrow, or Monday at the latest.