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EC - Production
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Da Apprentice
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#1 - 2016-11-22 17:28:04 UTC
So I have been looking heavily into the EC's to replace my POS's, but have yet to come with a work around that works at all that isn't stupid risk heavy.

The biggest thing I see is you now need to "specialize". Using a Medium or Large this still will not work:

Example:

I want to specialize in T2 Frigs -

I would need:
Copy Rig
Invention Rig
Advanced Comp Rig
Basic Small Ship Rig
Advanced Small Ship Rig

That's just to produce small t2 ships. Granted some of that you could go away with (Copy/Invention).

The only way to even produce t2 ships of anytype without having to move stuff all over at optimal rates is an XL, and lets face it an XL in empire wont last long.

I guess the other option is rent a 0.0 system that seems stable right now and put an XL down, but the costs for the XL & System rental would be insane.

I don't understand the need for all these rigs and the ability to only use 3. Even an XL can't do everything, you would need a Large to go with it for the Research/Copy/Invention.

Am I missing something?
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2016-11-22 19:02:10 UTC
You're right. You won't get perfecion out if a medium. But do you really NEED it to be perfect on every single step in order to make a profit? If your margins are that tight then maybe look into producing something else that you can get better margins on.
Alternatively cut out some steps if they are not profitable.

For example a couple years ago I used to make interceptors. But the profit margin on destroyers was so small that I ended up just buying them from the market more often than I built them just because it made things faster.

If you are producing t2 ships. And you only feel comfortable using a medium. Ask yourself if you really need perfect production on the t1 hulls? Is your profit margin large enough that you could produce them yourself at a reasonable rate. Or even just buy them and make your profit from the upgrade to t2.

Same thing with the t2 components. Lots if those hit the market at a low enough price that you can probably just buy them and still make money
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#3 - 2016-11-22 19:22:08 UTC
I think the point is if you do not optimize every step, your competition will, and undercut you.

Just like one can currently do in a POS.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2016-11-22 19:46:49 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
I think the point is if you do not optimize every step, your competition will, and undercut you.

Just like one can currently do in a POS.


Except that you still can make a profit manufacturing even without a pos. Sure your margins are smaller, and you need to choose your product more carefully. But I made billions in t2 production just working out of a station.

Yes I could have made more with a pos but I was never active enough at it to bother setting one up.

So if profits can be made even doing station manufacturing if you are careful and smart about it. Then those profit margins can only get bigger by using an EC. Even if you don't optimize every single step along the way.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2016-11-22 21:50:36 UTC
Hint, if you go for an EC, don't try to optimize every step, just the one or few with the best ROI. But even better is to choose a product with better margins. If you can make 50-100% profit from every unit produced, NPC station tax and drawbacks don't matter.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Proton Power
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2016-11-23 15:52:50 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
You're right. You won't get perfecion out if a medium. But do you really NEED it to be perfect on every single step in order to make a profit? If your margins are that tight then maybe look into producing something else that you can get better margins on.
Alternatively cut out some steps if they are not profitable.

For example a couple years ago I used to make interceptors. But the profit margin on destroyers was so small that I ended up just buying them from the market more often than I built them just because it made things faster.

If you are producing t2 ships. And you only feel comfortable using a medium. Ask yourself if you really need perfect production on the t1 hulls? Is your profit margin large enough that you could produce them yourself at a reasonable rate. Or even just buy them and make your profit from the upgrade to t2.

Same thing with the t2 components. Lots if those hit the market at a low enough price that you can probably just buy them and still make money


While some of these points are valid, the problem is you are stating a "medium" EC. Even a Large you can't do all steps to build a single t2 frig. Even the XL needs a Large to go with it in order to do all steps. So to do all types of manufacturing you need a 50bilish XL and then a 10bilish L.

Good luck defending a titans worth of EC's that can be killed by a few BS's. Even if you defend or pay someone to defend them, sooner or later someone else will get lucky.

I have on real issue with having to specialize some, but they need a better option than the rigs. Limit people to a few item types at a time, but make it a module of some sort that can be swapped with a small cost, not a billion isk rig.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2016-11-23 22:54:00 UTC
Proton Power wrote:
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
You're right. You won't get perfecion out if a medium. But do you really NEED it to be perfect on every single step in order to make a profit? If your margins are that tight then maybe look into producing something else that you can get better margins on.
Alternatively cut out some steps if they are not profitable.

For example a couple years ago I used to make interceptors. But the profit margin on destroyers was so small that I ended up just buying them from the market more often than I built them just because it made things faster.

If you are producing t2 ships. And you only feel comfortable using a medium. Ask yourself if you really need perfect production on the t1 hulls? Is your profit margin large enough that you could produce them yourself at a reasonable rate. Or even just buy them and make your profit from the upgrade to t2.

Same thing with the t2 components. Lots if those hit the market at a low enough price that you can probably just buy them and still make money


While some of these points are valid, the problem is you are stating a "medium" EC. Even a Large you can't do all steps to build a single t2 frig. Even the XL needs a Large to go with it in order to do all steps. So to do all types of manufacturing you need a 50bilish XL and then a 10bilish L.

Good luck defending a titans worth of EC's that can be killed by a few BS's. Even if you defend or pay someone to defend them, sooner or later someone else will get lucky.

I have on real issue with having to specialize some, but they need a better option than the rigs. Limit people to a few item types at a time, but make it a module of some sort that can be swapped with a small cost, not a billion isk rig.


Find a group. If you haven't noticed the big push from CCP has been towards moving the BIG money making activities towards being group activities.

Best way to make money in pve is incursions, a group activity. Want to optimize your PI? Set down some pocos which at least in theory takes a group to protect. Want to optimize your pvp. Gonna need a group. Removal of off grid boosts while a benefit for pvp also means that for efficient mining your better off in a group.

The EC changes are the same way. Taking what used to be a solo activity, and making it so that in order to completely optimize and get the most you can out of it. Your going to need a group.

Now why is CCP doing this? Well because statistically the people most likely to stick around long term around are those who play with a group of people. The days of being the solo industrialist are gone... will they lose players over it... sure.. but the players they retain are going to be worth much more money in the long run.

I agree the current system may be a bit heavy handed in this push. But it's just the first iteration. And if you noticed. Small ECS don't actually exist yet. Likely those ones are coming at some point. Designed for a single player to operate. But they are waiting to see how the market and the players adapt to the current t system so they can balance them appropriately
Luthor Ikkala
Snow Moon City
Fraternity.
#8 - 2016-12-01 22:39:13 UTC
Theres really no need to try and perfect your manufacturing line. just choose the right products to go after.