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Federal detention facilities in Black Rise.

Author
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#21 - 2016-11-21 19:43:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashlar Vellum
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
She's deliberately being horrifying, sir.

She's trying out being an ostentatiously-ruthless ethno-nationalist. It's kind of a phase, or at least the ostentation is.

That's probably what none Caldari would see at the first glance. I can't find much logic there too, but maybe I'm missing something and there are some practical angle, she is Caldari after all.


I am Caldari, sir. (Well, sort of.) I also used to fly with Veik.

Veiki's ... well....

Funnily, we kind of share a tradition. We both see ourselves as weapons, tools for others' hands. Only, I tend to interpret this in a minimal sort of way, for such a strong statement: I try to be a simple, well-crafted blade, dependable, sturdy, balanced, and easy to use efficiently. Other than that, I'm just a person.

(... part of which is occasionally requiring more care than I ideally probably should. Stupid emotions.)

Veiki's ... as a sword, Veiki would be the kind with blade catchers, three blood gutters, a spiked pommel, a mercury channel, a serrated edge, a serpent-curved blade, and a hidden mechanism for coating the blade in poison. Oh, and it would be huge.

A little hard to use well, maybe. ... Probably really, really hard to live as. I'm not sure she knows how to be that kind of sword and also still a person, so, she keeps kind of trying out different modes. Maybe kind of like experimenting with which fittings and features to attach.

So, you get genocide Veiki, with spalling ammunition and reflexive crew-targeting features.

And, diplomat Veiki, who actually gets along with people while constantly reminding you she's messing with your head.

And, Templis Veiki (the latest model!) who claims she's just dropped all pretense and gotten down to the very important business of being absolutely awful.

... It's not really a matter of logic, sir. I think she's just trying to find a way of living with herself. It's hard to find a comfortable way to sit, or stand, or lie down, when you could accidentally eviscerate yourself just by rolling over.

Yes, I know that you are of Caldari descent, was flying with Veikitamo and you were even working for Cartel long time ago if I'm not mistaken. Didn't know you still view yourself as Caldari tho, if I offended you by calling you a none Caldari then my apologies.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
It was a deal conducted with a Nation affiliate for the repatriation of Caldari citizens in return held by the group. I evaluated them to be a competent organization potentially useful in combat operations and thus useful to have around operationally. Yes, Nation is a threat to the State and yes, the group were all sons and daughters of whores but they were my kind of sons and daughters of whores.

It's called pragmatism, look it up. It's the reason I never bothered much with Amarrian groups -- they're about as useful in combat as a chocolate tea cup.

However, it is not like I have not kept a lot of Gallentean and Minmatar I have captured on my staff. After all, it's always better to surround yourself with competent enemies who will work out of gratitude to stay the blade than to have a single friend who will betray you out of envy.

Ok, I see.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2016-11-21 20:26:19 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Yes, I know that you are of Caldari descent, was flying with Veikitamo and you were even working for Cartel long time ago if I'm not mistaken. Didn't know you still view yourself as Caldari tho, if I offended you by calling you a none Caldari then my apologies.

No offense taken, sir. It's ... complicated, and involves fun terms like "induced amnesia."

(I don't remember having been an Angel. I know I was one, though.)

I'm Achura more than anything else, but an exile even from there. Mostly, I just meant that the Caldari culture and way of thinking isn't at all alien to me.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#23 - 2016-11-21 22:03:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Aria Jenneth wrote:


Veiki's ... as a sword, Veiki would be the kind with blade catchers, three blood gutters, a spiked pommel, a mercury channel, a serrated edge, a serpent-curved blade, and a hidden mechanism for coating the blade in poison. Oh, and it would be huge.



If I had to be a weapon it would be a Kaalakiota Arms NL-14 Tactical Pistol chambered in 5mm electrothermal. Not entirely popular and often underrated but still offering some of the best accuracy in class in a rugged and reliable frame combined with a munition with great ballistics profile in terms of both penetration and wound profile.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2016-11-21 23:32:25 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Punitive action against the Federation does not always have to take place under the aegis of CONCORD sponsored militias. They should be undertaken whether or not the DED approves. I certainly had no qualms sending a few thousand Gallente to be Kuvakei's toys in personal protest against the Federal government, for one.

We all must do our part, after all.

What's the logic behind sending them to sansha? Do you consider Kuvakei's nation to be less of a threat to Caldari or see your "packages" a drop in the ocean on a grand scale of things.

The meat of the deal was a one for one exchange of FDU POWs for Caldari captives of Sansha. I would remind those who are horrified that humane treatment of prisoners is a reciprocal agreement. When the Federal government showed that they didn't care for their Caldari prisoners, they were also stating that they didn't care about their own crews.

Veik (probably deliberately) failed to characterize this as a "deal."

Even if it was one, though-- Sansha's Nation is an entity I literally would rather be shot dead than taken by, Pieter. And you're trading people to them?

Really? This is where we've come to? They don't treat our soldiers well, so it's okay to trade theirs into a cybernetic nightmare from which they'll awaken, in the best-case scenario, only when they die?

I'm ... yes. I'm horrified. I thought stuff like this was something the Caldari just wouldn't do, Pieter.

When I found myself afraid for my soul, I came to the Amarr because I knew they'd see something wrong and want to help me fix it, while the Caldari would just offer me a stiff drink and advise me not to think about it. I've sometimes wondered if that was a little unfair.

Apparently not. ... I guess ... Tibus Heth wasn't necessary. We're capable of being awful all on our own.

... I'm glad I got out when I did.


I explained the terms of the deal, Aria. I didn't try to justify it or endorse it.

But yes, Caldari are more than capable of terrible. So are Gallente. So are Matari. So are Amarr. So are people who are none of the above.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#25 - 2016-11-21 23:35:11 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Veiki's ... as a sword, Veiki would be the kind with blade catchers, three blood gutters, a spiked pommel, a mercury channel, a serrated edge, a serpent-curved blade, and a hidden mechanism for coating the blade in poison. Oh, and it would be huge.


If I had to be a weapon it would be a Kaalakiota Arms NL-14 Tactical Pistol chambered in 5mm electrothermal. Not entirely popular and often underrated but still offering some of the best accuracy in class in a rugged and reliable frame combined with a munition with great ballistics profile in terms of both penetration and wound profile.


What we imagine ourselves as often differs from reality. Even as metaphor.

(And you're definitely nothing as understated as a pistol, Veik.)
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2016-11-21 23:38:08 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I explained the terms of the deal, Aria. I didn't try to justify it or endorse it.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I would remind those who are horrified that humane treatment of prisoners is a reciprocal agreement. When the Federal government showed that they didn't care for their Caldari prisoners, they were also stating that they didn't care about their own crews.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#27 - 2016-11-22 01:08:14 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:


When I found myself afraid for my soul, I came to the Amarr because I knew they'd see something wrong and want to help me fix it, while the Caldari would just offer me a stiff drink and advise me not to think about it. I've sometimes wondered if that was a little unfair.

Apparently not. ... I guess ... Tibus Heth wasn't necessary. We're capable of being awful all on our own.

... I'm glad I got out when I did.


That would depend entirely on the individual Caldari. For my part, I've found plenty to balm a troubled soul in our way of life, far more than I see in the Amarrian way.

In my experience? A good Caldari, who is really on your team, will offer you a stiff drink, ask you to pour one for them too, and will help you think about your problem.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#28 - 2016-11-22 01:58:10 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I explained the terms of the deal, Aria. I didn't try to justify it or endorse it.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I would remind those who are horrified that humane treatment of prisoners is a reciprocal agreement. When the Federal government showed that they didn't care for their Caldari prisoners, they were also stating that they didn't care about their own crews.

I'm not justifying the specifics, I am trying to fend off the gasps of faux-horror I'm expecting to hear from the cheap seats.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#29 - 2016-11-22 03:18:54 UTC
Selling Galante pows to sansha?????? Oh my THATS HORRIBLE! Why didn't I think of that for the Amarr and to blood raiders? Cheaper than bullets.... Nauplius, if I tattoo their faces will you pay me money for some Amarr pows who "willingly" got tattoos?

Twisted
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#30 - 2016-11-22 06:07:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Aria Jenneth wrote:


(And you're definitely nothing as understated as a pistol, Veik.)


Of course I am, when it comes to putting a bullet to the back of someone's head there is nothing better and more efficient.

Deitra Vess wrote:
Selling Galante pows to sansha?????? Oh my THATS HORRIBLE! Why didn't I think of that for the Amarr and to blood raiders? Cheaper than bullets.... Nauplius, if I tattoo their faces will you pay me money for some Amarr pows who "willingly" got tattoos?

Twisted


Depending on how much you're willing to pay, I'll take care of those Amarrian prisoners for you. I start at 1 ISK per person, non-negotiable.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#31 - 2016-11-22 17:48:31 UTC
I, for one, am shocked, shocked, I say, to learn that elements of the Gallente Federation operate secret facilities with no Senate or other oversight, thereby allowing un-Gallentean activities to occur in a plausibly deniable fashion.

Truly, this is a revelatory piece of news unparalleled in all of New Eden's media, for it's unprecedented nature.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Tristan Valentina
Moira.
#32 - 2016-11-22 18:48:53 UTC
I dont see and Gallente prisoners of war in Caldari space. Oh wait Diana Kim kills them for the fact of there affiliation. Yes... Perhaps we Gallente Loyalists should start taking this approach.

But we are better people. So Prison Camps it is, and damn that is a sad thing to say.

Do better Kim, and stop aiming your guns with cameras it is getting sad.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#33 - 2016-11-22 19:30:16 UTC
Tristan Valentina wrote:
I dont see and Gallente prisoners of war in Caldari space. Oh wait Diana Kim kills them for the fact of there affiliation. Yes... Perhaps we Gallente Loyalists should start taking this approach.

But we are better people. So Prison Camps it is, and damn that is a sad thing to say.

Do better Kim, and stop aiming your guns with cameras it is getting sad.


Is that sad attempt the best you can do at spinning this? One Capsuleer murders Prisoners of War therefore our government is totes justified in torturing and mistreating ALL the prisoners that get handed over.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#34 - 2016-11-22 19:40:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
I don't have much to say on this, but a few points must be made.

Pilots, Diana Kim brought this same topic to the fore some months ago, but with less documentation. Her words were roundly dismissed and mocked, despite that she spoke the truth.

As much as we may think it reasonable to dismiss Ms. Kim's words without consideration, we should all realize that bias serves to cloud vision. When a capsuleer you dislike or distrust speaks, do not dismiss them out of hand. Knowledge can come even from unexpected quarters.

As to the matter at hand, I think we all agree that this inhumane activity should be addressed, just as we decry the senseless violence and bloodshed found in other places.

By failing to act, by dismissing the words of someone out of hand, you condone the actions of these jailors, and make light of efforts to address other such acts.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Tsao Aubbes
Tidal Lock
Vapor-Lock
#35 - 2016-11-22 19:50:01 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Tristan Valentina wrote:
I dont see and Gallente prisoners of war in Caldari space. Oh wait Diana Kim kills them for the fact of there affiliation. Yes... Perhaps we Gallente Loyalists should start taking this approach.

But we are better people. So Prison Camps it is, and damn that is a sad thing to say.

Do better Kim, and stop aiming your guns with cameras it is getting sad.


Is that sad attempt the best you can do at spinning this? One Capsuleer murders Prisoners of War therefore our government is totes justified in torturing and mistreating ALL the prisoners that get handed over.

While I don't want to get myself involved in these politics, I don't think Miss Valentina implied that at all, Sir.

Tressith Sefira > You don't understand. She IS the awkward.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#36 - 2016-11-22 21:38:41 UTC
Tsao Aubbes wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Tristan Valentina wrote:
I dont see and Gallente prisoners of war in Caldari space. Oh wait Diana Kim kills them for the fact of there affiliation. Yes... Perhaps we Gallente Loyalists should start taking this approach.

But we are better people. So Prison Camps it is, and damn that is a sad thing to say.

Do better Kim, and stop aiming your guns with cameras it is getting sad.


Is that sad attempt the best you can do at spinning this? One Capsuleer murders Prisoners of War therefore our government is totes justified in torturing and mistreating ALL the prisoners that get handed over.

While I don't want to get myself involved in these politics, I don't think Miss Valentina implied that at all, Sir.


She indicated that they were better people because they only allow their prisoners to be tortured, beaten, starved and murdered instead of just shooting them outright. Moreover the entity that is doing the above is actually the FDU itself and not a sole capsuleer.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#37 - 2016-11-24 05:03:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Diana Kim
Tsao Aubbes wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Tristan Valentina wrote:
I dont see and Gallente prisoners of war in Caldari space. Oh wait Diana Kim kills them for the fact of there affiliation. Yes... Perhaps we Gallente Loyalists should start taking this approach.

But we are better people. So Prison Camps it is, and damn that is a sad thing to say.

Do better Kim, and stop aiming your guns with cameras it is getting sad.


Is that sad attempt the best you can do at spinning this? One Capsuleer murders Prisoners of War therefore our government is totes justified in torturing and mistreating ALL the prisoners that get handed over.

While I don't want to get myself involved in these politics, I don't think Miss Valentina implied that at all, Sir.

Ma'am, I strongly recommend you to avoid believing obvious and outrageous Gallente propaganda. Those, who claim like I kill prisoners of war - are nothing, but propagandist and slanderers, their words shall not be trusted. They are just scum.

I have to give clarification, however, since I do kill Federals. But be wary about those, who stand in front of my guns - they aren't prisoners, they are enemies, who fight the State. Once they become Prisoners, I do not shoot them, I transfer them to authorities.

Exception is done only to sentenced convicts - those prisoners, who have been found to be guilty in crimes that earns them execution. And those I will execute only if their guilt will be found by a tribunal and their sentence will be execution.

I both executed convicts, and I both killed federals before they became prisoners, but I never shoot those, who were arrested and weren't sentenced to death according to the law.

Once again, I'll point out, that gallente propagandists love to claim counterwise, but their words are empty like their souls.

No sane person (especially those, who have eyes, ears and access to documents) should really believe them.


Be vigilant, point out gallente slandereres and shame them.
They are trying to blame us in what we haven't done to cover what they have committed. That's who they are.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Tsao Aubbes
Tidal Lock
Vapor-Lock
#38 - 2016-11-25 01:09:00 UTC
Miss Kim, you do realize I am Gallente right? Just because I live and work in the drone regions does not change my national allegiance. Frankly, I don't want to be kind to you at all, considering how you slander, insult and call for the death of my home daily. But I still try my best to be kind when I can, and be neutral as often as possible. But all of this is seriously tempting me to stop being kind and stoop to your level and insult supporters of the state in the same way you do to my countrymen. I honestly believe that this war is wasteful. Both the Federation and the State must admit their sins and work twords a better tomorrow in unity. Your hate of everything Gallente is one of the reasons there is no peace, and the same goes for Gallenteans that act the same way as you. That's really just my thoughts Miss.

I don't hate you Miss Kim. I don't want you to hate me.

Tressith Sefira > You don't understand. She IS the awkward.

Teinyhr
Ourumur
#39 - 2016-11-25 02:31:45 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
I don't have much to say on this, but a few points must be made.

Pilots, Diana Kim brought this same topic to the fore some months ago, but with less documentation. Her words were roundly dismissed and mocked, despite that she spoke the truth.

As much as we may think it reasonable to dismiss Ms. Kim's words without consideration, we should all realize that bias serves to cloud vision. When a capsuleer you dislike or distrust speaks, do not dismiss them out of hand. Knowledge can come even from unexpected quarters.

As to the matter at hand, I think we all agree that this inhumane activity should be addressed, just as we decry the senseless violence and bloodshed found in other places.

By failing to act, by dismissing the words of someone out of hand, you condone the actions of these jailors, and make light of efforts to address other such acts.



A raving lunatic who happens to make one valid point is still a raving lunatic after the fact. I wouldn't start stroking pilot Kim's ego too much just over this. Let us not forget she just recently said that "There is no such thing in existence as "fundamental rights of a human being". In light of this, according to her own words, these Caldari prisoners of war have no fundamental human rights, such as the right of not being subjected to torture.

Are these facilities an affront to human decency towards other humans? Yes. Do I personally think this is detestable? Yes. Am I going to pretend this is only perpetrated by the Gallente and be oh so shocked and dismayed o how wicked and o how vile the Gallente are? No. You know as well as I all empires run similar facilities but somehow the rest have managed to keep theirs a better secret.

Again, I do not condone the Black Rise facilities being discussed here, their existence or purpose. You can write that down as an official statement and send it to the Federation Senate. Mayhap they will then even act upon it and close the facilities, which, frankly is very plausible and believable from the Gallente to do, whereas I presume the other more totalitarian Empire governments would mutter something about not caving in to outside pressure.


Anyway, you all have fun with your anti-gallente circle-jerk, I doubt it's going to stop here.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#40 - 2016-11-25 04:11:05 UTC
Ms. Teinyhr, I'm not exactly one to stroke Ms. Kim's ego. I'm simply reminding pilots that information shouldn't be dismissed out of hand simply because of our own bias.

What's more, you'll notice that my statement basically boils down to this: if you also rail against Nauplius's latest slaughterhouse, or Cetes's casual torture, or anything of that sort, then you should also rail against these facilities.

We are not in disagreement.

So-- was that part of an anti-Gallente circle-jerk?

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