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Maybe Alphas should have Cloaking I
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Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#61 - 2016-11-19 15:06:27 UTC
Thank you to everyone that participated in this discussion. I was afraid posting this kind of topic in GD would get me only troll responses, but there were several thoughtful replies. I appreciate it.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
DSpite Culhach
#62 - 2016-11-19 17:21:36 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Thank you to everyone that participated in this discussion. I was afraid posting this kind of topic in GD would get me only troll responses, but there were several thoughtful replies. I appreciate it.


It is really unfortunate that this is the kind of game that makes players think "how can I take advantage of this new thing and not get in trouble", and making a ton of Alphas and looking for those ways was one of the things older players thought of.

If that had not been the case, the whole idea of giving Alphas a clocking skill - or a bunch of other skills - would not really have been an issue.

It's kind of a shame really.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Salvos Rhoska
#63 - 2016-11-19 18:28:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
OP, I completely agree with your impetus of spreading Alphas out of HS.
Great goal.

We will have to see, but a preponderance of Alpha accounts in HS may have pronounced wide-reaching negative effects.

But cloaking for Alphas, as it is now, as others have explained, is not the solution.

Donr feel disheartened by players vocalizing their concern about how it could be exploited.
Its far more valuable that they point those out, than if they sneakily remained silent inorder to exploit it.

EVE has the most expertly conniving minds of the gaming world.
You wanted discussion, and you got it. And good discussion too.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Keno Skir
#64 - 2016-11-19 18:45:34 UTC
Loads of people operate in lowsec without ever fitting a cloak.

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#65 - 2016-11-19 19:03:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Pahrdi
Make it a "limited prototype cloaking device" and provide it without skills. It has a maximum of 10 minutes of total activation time and can only be activated thrice before burning out for good. When burning out it damages the hull and gets a timer before it can be replaced by another module. Only fits in utility slots

Remove standings and insurance.
Salvos Rhoska
#66 - 2016-11-19 19:32:09 UTC
Cloaking is just about the most powerful advantage to players EVE has ever implemented.

The benefit this might give to Alpha characters is counter-intuitive, makes all space safer for a non-subbed account, and is a hotbed for unthinkable exploitation (cos free).

Yes, there may result compounding problems from Alphas proliferating in HS and methods/means to encourage their dispersal to other space may be necessary, but cloaking (even as a consumable/short effect) are not really constructive towards this end as weighed against the enormous advantage this gives a free account.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#67 - 2016-11-19 19:56:46 UTC
I could get behind a cycle-timed alpha cloak that turns off after x minutes. But you would need to be able to cancel the effect immediately mid cycle and modules don't work that way.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Bagatur I
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#68 - 2016-11-19 20:00:19 UTC
Lol
Valkyrie Harkonnen
Doomheim
#69 - 2016-11-19 20:33:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkyrie Harkonnen
I'm eager to see the retention rate of alpha clones after 1-2 months.

Try EVE Online for FREE with 250.000 extra skill points here!
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#70 - 2016-11-19 20:35:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Valkyrie Harkonnen wrote:
Don't think alphas were intended to be in low/null sec. Or CCP would give them some sort of cloaking.

Rubbish. The more that get out of highsec the better in terms of player retention. Joining a decent corp and getting out of highsec are important.

But a cloak is not a pre-requisite for this.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2016-11-19 20:54:37 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha.

The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak.

With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance.

And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription.

Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak.

Anyway, what do you think?

--

edit,
Well, we are 3 pages in and I thought I had a good point, but even in light of that the response is overwhelmingly negative. So let me modify the argument.

If prototype cloaks were modified so they consumed fuel and limited the duration an alpha could cloak, which would eliminate afk cloaking. Would you accept alpha cloaking then? If so what kind of limit on the cloak would be appropriate.

I think it should definitely be long enough to slowboat out of a bubble get far enough away to decloak and warpout from a standing camp.

Can alphas use probes? If so its a simple case of jumping into a travel frigate with a probe launcher and back scanning to high via wormhole. Say you want to go to Fade, you travel out in a frig, scan a wh back to highsec and you're done, can bring in whatever ship you like now. Leave your scanning char or chars (all alphas out in whatever regions you like and your all set for the safest null travel possible)

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#72 - 2016-11-19 21:34:32 UTC
Steffles wrote:
Iria Ahrens wrote:
I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha.

The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak.

With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance.

And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription.

Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak.

Anyway, what do you think?

--

edit,
Well, we are 3 pages in and I thought I had a good point, but even in light of that the response is overwhelmingly negative. So let me modify the argument.

If prototype cloaks were modified so they consumed fuel and limited the duration an alpha could cloak, which would eliminate afk cloaking. Would you accept alpha cloaking then? If so what kind of limit on the cloak would be appropriate.

I think it should definitely be long enough to slowboat out of a bubble get far enough away to decloak and warpout from a standing camp.

Can alphas use probes? If so its a simple case of jumping into a travel frigate with a probe launcher and back scanning to high via wormhole. Say you want to go to Fade, you travel out in a frig, scan a wh back to highsec and you're done, can bring in whatever ship you like now. Leave your scanning char or chars (all alphas out in whatever regions you like and your all set for the safest null travel possible)

There's an easier way to get to Fade. Just join Pandemic Horde and remote your medical clone to 7RM. We have a jump bridge into Fade. You should try it. NPC corps are the worst.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#73 - 2016-11-20 02:33:02 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:

Does not stop a family with 2-3 kids to have mommy or daddy teach them just enough to play that part though, as having a separate human being at the keyboard just long enough to fly somewhere, cloak up and go AFK is perfectly fine, then mommy/daddy can easily just "look over" at the other screen for instant intel, which would be skirting the rules but not breaking them.



Well it isn't automation but then there's the possibility that the "Self destruct" gets pressed because it's either just funny, or it's funny to see you freak out.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2016-11-20 03:25:53 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Steffles wrote:
Iria Ahrens wrote:
I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha.

The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak.

With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance.

And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription.

Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak.

Anyway, what do you think?

--

edit,
Well, we are 3 pages in and I thought I had a good point, but even in light of that the response is overwhelmingly negative. So let me modify the argument.

If prototype cloaks were modified so they consumed fuel and limited the duration an alpha could cloak, which would eliminate afk cloaking. Would you accept alpha cloaking then? If so what kind of limit on the cloak would be appropriate.

I think it should definitely be long enough to slowboat out of a bubble get far enough away to decloak and warpout from a standing camp.

Can alphas use probes? If so its a simple case of jumping into a travel frigate with a probe launcher and back scanning to high via wormhole. Say you want to go to Fade, you travel out in a frig, scan a wh back to highsec and you're done, can bring in whatever ship you like now. Leave your scanning char or chars (all alphas out in whatever regions you like and your all set for the safest null travel possible)

There's an easier way to get to Fade. Just join Pandemic Horde and remote your medical clone to 7RM. We have a jump bridge into Fade. You should try it. NPC corps are the worst.

Already there :) Infinity Ziona alt, not playing EvE atm though playing a necro on p1999 - EQ classic server - rediculously difficult but fun.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
#75 - 2016-11-20 03:57:41 UTC
I know of pilots who can scan down your location within the time it takes to safe log off, when I logged in an hour later I found a bubble and a small fleet waiting at my safe spot.

There are counters to cloaking, you have to be skilled enough to execute them.

Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#76 - 2016-11-20 06:47:22 UTC
Aaron wrote:
I know of pilots who can scan down your location within the time it takes to safe log off, when I logged in an hour later I found a bubble and a small fleet waiting at my safe spot.

There are counters to cloaking, you have to be skilled enough to execute them.

You can dscan for probes while safe logging btw.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#77 - 2016-11-20 07:13:34 UTC
Ok, so after a post by Cagali in twitter, I'm sort of agreeing with the need for some sort of cloak capability.

Since alphas can't use any of the better haulers (eg. blockade runner), having access to MWD/Cloak trick isn't a bad idea.

Something that is a much weaker cloak, maybe with a 1 minutes cooldown timer so they could be probed if used tactically for intel, but still something that lets them move stuff past gate camps, particularly in lowsec.

I think having read that point, it has merit.
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2016-11-20 07:40:27 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Ok, so after a post by Cagali in twitter, I'm sort of agreeing with the need for some sort of cloak capability.

Since alphas can't use any of the better haulers (eg. blockade runner), having access to MWD/Cloak trick isn't a bad idea.

Something that is a much weaker cloak, maybe with a 1 minutes cooldown timer so they could be probed if used tactically for intel, but still something that lets them move stuff past gate camps, particularly in lowsec.

I think having read that point, it has merit.

Isn't the whole point to get people playing and then subscribing so they can get these benefits? I see that as a good reason to subscribe for an Omega, not a reason to make it more viable for staying an alpha.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#79 - 2016-11-20 07:46:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Steffles wrote:
Isn't the whole point to get people playing and then subscribing so they can get these benefits? I see that as a good reason to subscribe for an Omega, not a reason to make it more viable for staying an alpha.

I don't remember CCP declaring that as the only point, no.

If memory serves me correct (and it might not), they have stated that alphas should be a viable way for someone to play the game, regardless of subscription. I suspect that means there will be additional purchasable content coming to encourage people to spend money, even if they are not subscribed.

CCP Seagull's interview on Crossing Zebras seems to support my recollection rather than a more limited point (around the 5 minutes mark onwards and specifically at the 10:18 mark onwards):

http://crossingzebras.com/the-alpha-and-omega-executive-producer-ccp-seagull-interview/

CCP Seagull in CZ audio wrote:
...because we want it to be possible to play Eve Online as an alpha forever...
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#80 - 2016-11-20 08:34:11 UTC
You need only two features. "Get Outta Dodge" which lasts 10-30seconds tops and a lil longer I need to sit and wait this out which is 10-30mins max. Any longer and you can either log off or run away and if you are caught that badly then yeah its just your time to die.

The ability to move, faster than the normal cloak, but for a much more limited time frame can be both used offensively(limited really due to recalibration) and defensively much more so. Fuel usage to limit the time able to stay cloaked limits duration of usage so you cant sit and cloak and camp. Couple that with the ability for high end 1.08 formula probing to find your safe even if your cloaked. Much like if your moving cloaked you leave a "wake" in space that can be found so the faster you move the easier it is to probe you.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.