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Maybe Alphas should have Cloaking I
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PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#41 - 2016-11-18 23:09:28 UTC  |  Edited by: PopeUrban
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Quote:
I think you're asking for a **** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes.

PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?"


Cloaky alpha alts is a valid argument. But I don't see an afk alpha cloaker as being any different than an omega afk cloaker. That's more of an "Is afk cloaking really griefing argument." Which I've never supported.

Considering that an alpha and omega account can't be active at the same time, this isn't enabling players to do anything different than they already are. It's not as if an omega could set up an alpha afk cloaker and play on their omega account at the same time.

Also, "How can i exploit this." is the right way to think. So bravo.

Even with the limit on logging in alphas, wormhole space would end up with multiple alphas in every hole as an Intel network. People would just log them on, check the hole, log the next one on, repeat.

Would provide too much Intel in my opinion.

At least without a cloak, there's a chance to remove them from a hole.


This.

I've already started two alpha accounts specifically for hole babysitting, and they are only balanced by the fact that they're totally probable and killable while probing out chains, so I have to basically log them out if anything suspect appears on dscan to avoit getting ganked ,and a good prober still has a decent chance to catch me about half of the time due to my own laziness with dscan or the 30 second logout timer.

Letting me have t1 cloaks for these accounts would remove everything that currently limits me from simplly tracking every wormhole I have even a passing interest in. Even at alpha training speed I could take a basic t1 cloaky wormhole sitting alt from new character to fully capable of scanning down chains in a week, and they're flying a ship that costs like 8 million ISK, most of that being faction probes.

Currently I have six "soft trackers" from the alpha clone system, and two "hard trackers" on my omega accounts, so I can really only keep track of two occupied holes reliably, while the other ones are only useful when nobody is home. And I mostly just use them to keep track of lightly defended wormhole industry corps for occasional ganking.

You do not want ME to have the power to park infinite cloaky scan alts, and there are a lot of people with far more friends and money and far less fucks than me.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2016-11-18 23:31:27 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha.

The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak.

With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance.

And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription.

Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak.

Anyway, what do you think?


If they created a new cloaking module with a long cooldown and timed activation, id be in favor of it. Maybe like a "Sub-standard prototype cloaking device" that lasts for like 2 minutes and has a 5 minute cooldown?
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#43 - 2016-11-18 23:34:04 UTC
Of course new alphas should be able to use cloaks. The problem is that alpha alts should not be able to use them.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#44 - 2016-11-19 00:09:21 UTC
proto cloaks would be a false sense of security and would fit right in to the EVE line of thought. I'd still vote no but truth be told, they would be impotent.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2016-11-19 01:24:00 UTC
I have logged in just so I can say,


NO.

If they want to use the a in alpha for afk, they're going to pay for all the forms to be redone as afk cloaker and off of alpha clone.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2016-11-19 01:27:48 UTC
I say yes, let's do it. Give alpha's one month of access to cloaking, of any kind, and let people see what kind of damage it would cause first hand.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
#47 - 2016-11-19 01:29:31 UTC
I am in full agreement with the OP.

It will be difficult for solo alphas to operate in low/npc null sec without the ability to cloak. I suppose an alpha players home will be high sec and possibly sov space.

I think it's great that Eve is now FTP and its possible for people to get a good taste of Eve at no charge, it might be a little bit cheeky asking for cloaking to be added to alpha clones. If you don't ask you don't get.

Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie
Rin Vocaloid2
DUST University
#48 - 2016-11-19 02:31:25 UTC
It seems to me that the majority of the people here replying have a valid argument that allowing Alpha Clones to use even the most rudimentary of cloak modules could cause some problems as already described above in multiple posts by different players who have experience in wormholes and null-sec.

At first my initial reply was more like 'No, don't allow cloaks on Alphas' but then when the OP explained the argument I was like 'Ok, that doesn't sound like a bad idea'. Then came the rest of you guys who put forth a stronger counter-argument and I was like 'Oh ****, nevermind'.
Rin Vocaloid2
DUST University
#49 - 2016-11-19 02:35:44 UTC
Aaron wrote:
I am in full agreement with the OP.

It will be difficult for solo alphas to operate in low/npc null sec without the ability to cloak. I suppose an alpha players home will be high sec and possibly sov space.

I think it's great that Eve is now FTP and its possible for people to get a good taste of Eve at no charge, it might be a little bit cheeky asking for cloaking to be added to alpha clones. If you don't ask you don't get.


Now that hindsight has kicked me straight in the groin, I have to say that Alphas at the stage they are currently in are not likely to be that invested in going into null-sec alone. If they are going into null-sec or even wormhole space, they are more likely to do it with a group of friends which is probably why there are so many corporations recruiting them right now near or at the starter systems. Honestly, I don't think an Alpha needs access to cloaking if they have safety in numbers due to the corps they are likely to join such as Brave Newbies, Pandemic Horde, Eve University, etc.
David Grogan
NerdHerd
#50 - 2016-11-19 03:38:51 UTC  |  Edited by: David Grogan
Iria Ahrens wrote:
I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha.

The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak.

With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance.

And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription.

Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak.

Anyway, what do you think?


no the players objected to alphas having cloak and cyno ability

the reason is obvious

1. afk cloaky would be incredibly abused
2. hotdrops would be incredibly abused


1+2 or 1 or 2 would mean pl or nc or goons would own every system in low/null and eve would die as noone else would bother go to null
ccp was right to restrict it

dont like the restriction buy a plex or sub

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#51 - 2016-11-19 04:43:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Iria Ahrens
David Grogan wrote:


no the players objected to alphas having cloak and cyno ability

the reason is obvious

1. afk cloaky would be incredibly abused
2. hotdrops would be incredibly abused


1+2 or 1 or 2 would mean pl or nc or goons would own every system in low/null and eve would die as noone else would bother go to null
ccp was right to restrict it

dont like the restriction buy a plex or sub


Ok, I'm not arguing in any way shape or form for cyno ability, so I don't see why you would use it as a counter argument. Second, I'm omega, this isn't about me whining for something I don't have. Covops is essential for maintaining a trade network in null.

I still don't buy the afk cloaker argument in whole. It sounds like it could be fixed with a fuel requirement for the prototype cloak.

Neadayan Drakhon wrote:
Alpha's aren't currently restricted enough imho, that's a big no to giving them cloaks.

Should also lock their safeties to green. If people want to gank, which is perfectly valid play, they should have to pay for the game (sub or plex, whatever).

Alpha state should just be a taste, to get people interested, not a fully functional method of long term play.


Safety green means no LS or Nulle, not sure if green blocks wh access too. Doesn't that sound a bit much? How can people taste LS or Null lifestyle if they can't get there?

Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:


Now that hindsight has kicked me straight in the groin, I have to say that Alphas at the stage they are currently in are not likely to be that invested in going into null-sec alone. If they are going into null-sec or even wormhole space, they are more likely to do it with a group of friends which is probably why there are so many corporations recruiting them right now near or at the starter systems. Honestly, I don't think an Alpha needs access to cloaking if they have safety in numbers due to the corps they are likely to join such as Brave Newbies, Pandemic Horde, Eve University, etc.


While there is of course safety in numbers why is having alpha swarms the only option for alphas to explore a good thing?

Like I said in the beginning. If people can taste something then they will want more. So they can mine with crappy skills, so an alpha will want more. If players have to base their gameplay around not having an ability, as opposed to have an impaired ability, then they will not feel the incentive for more.

Frostys Virpio wrote:


We should also give them cyno I then so they can try it right?

Then might as well give them battle ship I so they can try that too.

And carrier because they need to try it.

Might as well not limit them.

Oh and just so they can try it all in a somewhat decent time line, make it so they train faster than Omega because they have quite some catch up to to if they want to try titans to see if it's interesting enough to sub.


Ok, this is a straw man argument. It is not a counter argument to my argument, it is you arguing with yourself. Congratulations, you won.

---

Well, we are 3 pages in and I thought I had a good point, but even in light of that the response is overwhelmingly negative. So let me change the argument,

If prototype cloaks were modified so they consumed fuel and limited the duration an alpha could cloak, which would eliminate afk cloaking. Would that change your mind? If so what kind of duration do you think they should be limited to?

I think it should definitely be long enough to slowboat out of a bubble get far enough away to decloak and warpout from a standing camp.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Rin Vocaloid2
DUST University
#52 - 2016-11-19 05:58:01 UTC
@OP

That would require a brand new module that has to undergo internal play testing, Singularity testing, rebalancing, more testing and then deploying it in a separate release or update. Even if CCP starting doing that today for a very-limited-cloaky module that needs fuel, it will be a while before we see any progress made. Again, this is CCP's call as they have the raw numbers.
DSpite Culhach
#53 - 2016-11-19 07:48:17 UTC
Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:
Kojee wrote:
Dumbest idea ever. As a BitterVet©, I would routinely use a cloaked Alpha as a scout. Yes, it would benefit me, but it would make it way too easy for any and all players to essentially have a free, untouchable scout if they have a spare computer in the house. Not to mention how epicly ******* broken the whole cloak-align-warp trick is.

I, for one, am glad cloaks are disabled for Alphas.


A spare computer is one way to get around it but that's assuming enough players have a spare computer at home. Maybe a potato laptop where you can fly Drakes on a plane. But even then, that has to be a limited number of players.


I'm not saying you are wrong - because you are not - but that is breaking the EULA.

You should not have an Alpha and an Omega logged in at the same time "helping" each other, as that would put at risk the Omega account.

Does not stop a family with 2-3 kids to have mommy or daddy teach them just enough to play that part though, as having a separate human being at the keyboard just long enough to fly somewhere, cloak up and go AFK is perfectly fine, then mommy/daddy can easily just "look over" at the other screen for instant intel, which would be skirting the rules but not breaking them.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Sitting Bull Lakota
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#54 - 2016-11-19 07:52:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Sitting Bull Lakota
Scipio Artelius wrote:

Even with the limit on logging in alphas, wormhole space would end up with multiple alphas in every hole as an Intel network. People would just log them on, check the hole, log the next one on, repeat.

Would provide too much Intel in my opinion.

At least without a cloak, there's a chance to remove them from a hole.

We can safely assume that wspace is quickly saturating with alphas, and this method you describe is being used. The chances of catching an alpha who's in and out within 3 minutes will be pretty low. Most scanning will probably be done in warp between safes, and adding a cloak won't make them noticably harder to catch.
I could be completely wrong, though.

I think the restriction on multiple logins is the restraint against afk cloaky alphas. The mwd warp trick needs to be seen as an issue independent of whether alphas are allowed to use cloaks.

As long as Cloaking I doesn't push them over 5m sp, I'm up for it.
DSpite Culhach
#55 - 2016-11-19 08:26:05 UTC
First off, I agree with "it will be abused" and have read a lot of the "ideas to fix cloaks" and how the ideas so far probably don't fix anything, I'm simply proposing new ideas towards a Cloaking 1 skill for Alphas to use the Prototype cloak, and personally, I'm still in two minds about what consequences that might bring that I simply can't think of right now.


For the record, it's kind of pointless to simply say things like "it will be abused" when the reality is the "abuse" is a player side effect, same as ganking is a side effect and can-flipping WAS a side effect, etc etc.

If you want to stop the so called abuse, then change the Module.

The only way Alphas should be using the Prototype ones is in a fully active way, as in, they must to be at the computer watching the damn game and interacting, so just make the cloaks "interactive" to start with.

An active cloak is a space warping phenomenon. There is no reason that manual tweaking by the player should not be required on a regular basis to maintain what is essentialy a "cheap cloak" from Walmart EvEMart.

When the cloak becomes "unstable", you need to actively do something to fix the problem, or you uncloak and can't simply just hit the module again until "list of ideas", and that "fixing the problem" can't simply be automated. I'm not saying add a Hacking Minigame or a Captcha, but at least get players ideas on stopping it being able to be automated.

If this kind of idea breaks AFK cloaky games then simply make it that the higher level cloaks either have extremely long "stable" cycles, like 12+ hours, or no limits at all.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#56 - 2016-11-19 08:31:52 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak.


So the answer to getting new players out to Null is to give them cloaks?

What about the people in Null recruit Alphas, the alphas set their home station, and they pod jump to their new home?

Then there's another option of sending out an escort, where a group will move together and provide safety in numbers.

But since your question is actually about extending the skill set of Alpha clones, I have these thoughts immediately:

  1. We do not know that not having a cloak is preventing Alphas from enjoying the game
  2. We do know that cloaking devices on Omega accounts are routinely used as denial of resource attacks (aka "AFK" cloaking)
  3. Many things we do in-game using multiple accounts are restricted in exploitability due to the need for a subscription. Alpha accounts do not require subscription, therefore the exploitability is only restricted by available compute power


So here we are, a few days in to Ascension, and people are already complaining that they can't mine enough or cloak enough with Alpha clones. I think people are missing the point of Alpha clones, which is to provide a taster plate of the EVE experience, not a free lunch.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#57 - 2016-11-19 09:00:02 UTC
While I get the OPs point..... I really do.

Malcanis' Law will kick in hard, especially for J-Space dwellers. A personal army of 50, free Astero flying, probing alts?

The hard line between Alpha and Omega had to be drawn somewhere. I think Cloaks and Cynos is a pretty good place to draw it.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#58 - 2016-11-19 09:30:37 UTC
Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:
I think you're asking for a **** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes.

PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?"


As it should be.

Also Op about the fuel thing you cant just cloak and burn out of a bubble as ive has some pretty massive bubbles, only option would be burn back to the gate which may have gotten camped on the other side or the guy your running you from follows you.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Pendra Tahyan
Doomheim
#59 - 2016-11-19 09:46:49 UTC
I agree with the OP. Not being able to use any cloaking is esentially robbing the Alpha from the chance to try out Exploration which in my opinion is one of the least boring types of PvE in EVE. Not being able to try exploration esentially means we will get alot of new alpha players trying either mission running or mining and then quitting out of boredom.
Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2016-11-19 10:15:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Geronimo McVain
Iria Ahrens wrote:

edit,
Well, we are 3 pages in and I thought I had a good point, but even in light of that the response is overwhelmingly negative. So let me modify the argument.

If prototype cloaks were modified so they consumed fuel and limited the duration an alpha could cloak, which would eliminate afk cloaking. Would you accept alpha cloaking then? If so what kind of limit on the cloak would be appropriate.

I think it should definitely be long enough to slowboat out of a bubble get far enough away to decloak and warpout from a standing camp.

The problem is, you can seed whole regions with alphas. When you need them, you activate them when not log them out. If you put them in a save spot, it would be easy to avoid problems and still spy on your enemies for free.
Cloaking should be limited to Omegas, because you pay for them so the amount of spys is limited by your RL wallet. Alphas don't have this limitation.