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Maybe Alphas should have Cloaking I
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SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#21 - 2016-11-18 20:54:46 UTC
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:
Kojee wrote:
Dumbest idea ever. As a BitterVet©, I would routinely use a cloaked Alpha as a scout. Yes, it would benefit me, but it would make it way too easy for any and all players to essentially have a free, untouchable scout if they have a spare computer in the house. Not to mention how epicly ******* broken the whole cloak-align-warp trick is.

I, for one, am glad cloaks are disabled for Alphas.

Why is cloak warp broken?



Because people are entitled to catch things by just sitting on a gate with an overheated long point, and if that doesn't work it's not fair. Evil

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Neadayan Drakhon
Heuristic Industrial And Development
AddictClan
#22 - 2016-11-18 20:55:54 UTC
Alpha's aren't currently restricted enough imho, that's a big no to giving them cloaks.

Should also lock their safeties to green. If people want to gank, which is perfectly valid play, they should have to pay for the game (sub or plex, whatever).

Alpha state should just be a taste, to get people interested, not a fully functional method of long term play.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#23 - 2016-11-18 20:59:48 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha.

The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak.

With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance.

And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription.

Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak.

Anyway, what do you think?



How bout we give it a few weeks and see how the current skillset works out?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#24 - 2016-11-18 21:04:56 UTC
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:
Alpha's aren't currently restricted enough imho, that's a big no to giving them cloaks.

Should also lock their safeties to green. If people want to gank, which is perfectly valid play, they should have to pay for the game (sub or plex, whatever).

Alpha state should just be a taste, to get people interested, not a fully functional method of long term play.


That's why I'm arguing for Cloaking 1. You can't taste something without giving it a try. Completely locking out cloaking doesn't give them a chance to try it. Ergo, it defeats the concept of the alpha state. Also, prototype cloaks are hardly fully functional. Fully functional would be covops cloaks, and covops ships. Freeing cloaking one will give a taste of what this mechanic is like, while still maintaining the incentive to upgrade. Also, prototype cloaks don't add to ganking much, it adds to people escaping. The targeting delay gives any alert player time to warp out.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Rin Vocaloid2
DUST University
#25 - 2016-11-18 21:20:14 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:
Alpha's aren't currently restricted enough imho, that's a big no to giving them cloaks.

Should also lock their safeties to green. If people want to gank, which is perfectly valid play, they should have to pay for the game (sub or plex, whatever).

Alpha state should just be a taste, to get people interested, not a fully functional method of long term play.


That's why I'm arguing for Cloaking 1. You can't taste something without giving it a try. Completely locking out cloaking doesn't give them a chance to try it. Ergo, it defeats the concept of the alpha state. Also, prototype cloaks are hardly fully functional. Fully functional would be covops cloaks, and covops ships. Freeing cloaking one will give a taste of what this mechanic is like, while still maintaining the incentive to upgrade. Also, prototype cloaks don't add to ganking much, it adds to people escaping. The targeting delay gives any alert player time to warp out.


Like I said earlier, let's wait for CCP first. They have the raw data to know and only they can make the call.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2016-11-18 21:22:02 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Iria Ahrens wrote:
I've been thinking about this. Especially after talking to some older players returning to play the alpha.

The whole point of the Alpha program is to give people a taste as many different facets of eve play while still reserving enough to give incentives to subscribe. We want more people in null and ls right? The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak.

With a cloak standard ships have a chance, not a great one, but a viable chance of getting through gate camps, especially bubbles. An explorer, for example, doesn't only want to get their ship through a camp, but they want to bring the loot back as well. Which is important. Players generally need to feel like they have a worthwhile chance before they take a chance.

And back on the whole concept of giving players a taste of EVE. This is only a taste. The most common piece of advice given about the prototype cloak is "never use it. Use improved cloak only." Why? Because prototype sucks. But even a prototype cloak can be better than no cloak. Anyone that uses a prototype cloak will desire a better cloak, which provides incentives to pay. On the other hand, if a player has to base their gameplay on not having a cloak, then there is less incentive to pay for a subscription.

Denying cloak skill to 2 week or 30 day trial members is one thing, but now that it is basically infinite trial, trial players should be able to access intermediate gameplay. I don't think anyone can argue that prototype cloaks are OP, and slowboating around with a prototype cloak active will give lots of incentive to subscribe and use a better cloak.

Anyway, what do you think?



How bout we give it a few weeks and see how the current skillset works out?


Well if they had cloaking, they would fit even more in your rule.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2016-11-18 21:24:20 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:
Alpha's aren't currently restricted enough imho, that's a big no to giving them cloaks.

Should also lock their safeties to green. If people want to gank, which is perfectly valid play, they should have to pay for the game (sub or plex, whatever).

Alpha state should just be a taste, to get people interested, not a fully functional method of long term play.


That's why I'm arguing for Cloaking 1. You can't taste something without giving it a try. Completely locking out cloaking doesn't give them a chance to try it. Ergo, it defeats the concept of the alpha state. Also, prototype cloaks are hardly fully functional. Fully functional would be covops cloaks, and covops ships. Freeing cloaking one will give a taste of what this mechanic is like, while still maintaining the incentive to upgrade. Also, prototype cloaks don't add to ganking much, it adds to people escaping. The targeting delay gives any alert player time to warp out.


We should also give them cyno I then so they can try it right?

Then might as well give them battle ship I so they can try that too.

And carrier because they need to try it.

Might as well not limit them.

Oh and just so they can try it all in a somewhat decent time line, make it so they train faster than Omega because they have quite some catch up to to if they want to try titans to see if it's interesting enough to sub.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#28 - 2016-11-18 21:24:22 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Quote:
I think you're asking for a **** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes.

PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?"


Cloaky alpha alts is a valid argument. But I don't see an afk alpha cloaker as being any different than an omega afk cloaker. That's more of an "Is afk cloaking really griefing argument." Which I've never supported.

Considering that an alpha and omega account can't be active at the same time, this isn't enabling players to do anything different than they already are. It's not as if an omega could set up an alpha afk cloaker and play on their omega account at the same time.

Also, "How can i exploit this." is the right way to think. So bravo.

Even with the limit on logging in alphas, wormhole space would end up with multiple alphas in every hole as an Intel network. People would just log them on, check the hole, log the next one on, repeat.

Would provide too much Intel in my opinion.

At least without a cloak, there's a chance to remove them from a hole.
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#29 - 2016-11-18 21:31:58 UTC
The barrier to entry for an alpha AFK cloaky guy is "another computer capable of running EVE, if only just, preferably from a place with a lot of other players." If someone does this from a university or other building with a lot of people on the same IP address, they won't be able to figure out whose alpha AFK cloaker it is.

A signature :o
Francis Raven
GeoCorp.
The Initiative.
#30 - 2016-11-18 21:34:10 UTC
Rin Vocaloid2 wrote:
I think you're asking for a **** ton of AFK Cloaky Alpha Alts in null-sec space by account holder who are very likely to be Eve veterans who are looking for way to grief their null-sec foes.

PS: Pardon my response. When I see any idea presented by any player, my first thought is "how can I exploit this?"


Good way to think considering this is Eve.

ExDominion | Nullsec Corporation | Website | Forums | Established Nov. 2015 |

Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#31 - 2016-11-18 21:39:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
BEcause space would instantaniously be full of characters permanently cloaked, just to make the tears flow. Guarantee it.

Course then at complete random the accounts would go omega, online the cyno in space and mass carnage would occur. Which is great because "show info" doesn't tell you which state the clone is in so you must assume 100% of the time it's some fatguy staring you down 24/7 waiting for a shiny loot to drop a cyno.

You don't have to be able to use a module to fit it, the module just stays offline till you can use it.


I always figured the alpha accounts would creep into more modules with mass forum complaints anyways unless CCP decided to either not let alphas on the forums or not listen. I shall call it the "whine creep" instead of "power creep".

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
Engage You
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2016-11-18 21:46:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Engage You
Nana Skalski wrote:
And here I was thinking about a big ball of Alpha justice dealers rolling thru lowsec and null sec...

What a disappointment. 😭


maybe if alpha clones werent so limited and literally useless other than to gank pods in jita

make alpha clones great again and remove the racial skills limit, make it free training of up to 5mil sp and then maybe people can have some fun

other that that alpha clones are nothing but unlimited trial, I mean theyre even worse than trial because so limited on the skills you can train
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2016-11-18 21:48:34 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
I've been thinking about this....The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak.


The porosity of low/null territories is most affected by wormholes, then jump drives, then bubble immune interceptors and explo strategic cruisers. Gate to gate travel with a cloak is about the least efficient or threatening way to move into someone's space.
Hence the insta-lock svipul illness at choke points.
AFK cloaky alphas would be a pox on space, limiting it's use.



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#34 - 2016-11-18 21:50:29 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Iria Ahrens wrote:
I've been thinking about this....The problem here is that getting in-and-out of ls/null in standard racial ships is generally done with the aid of an prototype or improved cloak.


The porosity of low/null territories is most affected by wormholes, then jump drives, then bubble immune interceptors and explo strategic cruisers. Gate to gate travel with a cloak is about the least efficient or threatening way to move into someone's space.
Hence the insta-lock svipul illness at choke points.
AFK cloaky alphas would be a pox on space, limiting it's use.





Prototype cloaks can't warp cloaked.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#35 - 2016-11-18 21:52:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternus8lux8lucis
Honestly Im going to give you a big HELL NO!!


Then Ill make a suggestion....

This is the perfect point to make limited cloaking abilities. Either you have to spam the button, or you have only a short cloaking timer of a few minutes or a few seconds, you make it use fuel or some other sort of charge/ammo or any other combination that requires considerable work or only lasts a limited amount of time but at least lets you run and hide for a short time.

But to be able to sit in complete safety anywhere as an alpha while undocked is NOT something they need to "learn" or "experience."Roll

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#36 - 2016-11-18 21:55:02 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Honestly Im going to give you a big HELL NO!!


Then Ill make a suggestion....

This is the perfect point to make limited cloaking abilities. Either you have to spam the button, or you have only a short cloaking timer of a few minutes or a few seconds, you make it use fuel or some other sort of charge/ammo or any other combination that requires considerable work or only lasts a limited amount of time but at least lets you run and hide for a short time.

But to be able to sit in complete safety anywhere as an alpha while undocked is NOT something they need to "learn" or "experience."Roll


I like the idea of cloaks requiring fuel. An hour or two of cloaked time seems good if one can easily resupply.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#37 - 2016-11-18 22:25:56 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Prototype cloaks can't warp cloaked.

Yes, but they only need to be in d-scan range of something to be able to tell what is there. Don't really need to warp cloaked for that.

Additionally, with grids being so big now, it's possible to set up a bookmark a few thousand km away from a POS, etc. and then if you can cloak on grid, sit there and watch and gather intel. Nothing the locals can do even if they see you arrive on grid.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#38 - 2016-11-18 22:35:31 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Honestly Im going to give you a big HELL NO!!


Then Ill make a suggestion....

This is the perfect point to make limited cloaking abilities. Either you have to spam the button, or you have only a short cloaking timer of a few minutes or a few seconds, you make it use fuel or some other sort of charge/ammo or any other combination that requires considerable work or only lasts a limited amount of time but at least lets you run and hide for a short time.

But to be able to sit in complete safety anywhere as an alpha while undocked is NOT something they need to "learn" or "experience."Roll


I like the idea of cloaks requiring fuel. An hour or two of cloaked time seems good if one can easily resupply.

No! Far to long and far to efficient. What I am suggesting is max 15 mins more like 2-5mins or even a GTFO sort of option that burns your cloak for 1-2mins of usage like the PANIC or the capital DCU does but without the speed nerf or just a minimal one at best but it burns out after ONE usage and must be replaced in a station. Or even a long nanite paste repair option that leaves you unable to warp for the duration of the repair, say 5-10mins, like a siege or cyno cycle which also gives you a 15 min log off timer. Invulnerability must be balanced by vulnerability.

Anything burning fuel MUST be scannable by combat probes like hard to probe ships using the 1.08 formula as a base point for this but not necessarily seen on dscan. And that fuel must not last for longer than 10-30mins at MOST, maybe an hour and must consume considerable space in the cargo hold in order to do so. Think stront size or bigger actual fuel blocks or charges much like the new command bursts but larger in m3 size. In fact this would be a new way to use some of the other materials currently underused in production to give them some love.

In fact both of these ideas could make two new cloaks or one with the option to use the fuel and you get the second option and without, like an ancillary, burns it out like the first.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2016-11-18 22:43:39 UTC
I know CCP could add another class of clone. Lets call them Omegas, so you can cloak and all sort of other things and here is the really exciting part. CCP which is a business actually makes money.


TLDR; NO

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#40 - 2016-11-18 23:00:46 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
I know CCP could add another class of clone. Lets call them Omegas

Maybe you missed the memo.