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Why Battleships?

First post
Author
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#201 - 2016-11-16 15:54:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Starrakatt wrote:
[
That's a Megathron? Off a Stargate/Station where he can't de-agress, one long point t1 cruiser (with ranged weapons) and a couple of Tracking Disruptor can kill it. But then, everything has a counter. The thing is a brawler, ofc you going to lose **** if you get in scram/web range.


Fights don't happen in perfect conditions, it's hard to dictate range when warping around trying to catch a guy, and having to scan him down with probes. And we fought with what we had, not taking the time to reship into some perfect combo , if we'd waited he'd have escaped back into low sec. And we had to kill him quick because he had friends nearby, and we didn't know if he had an mjd so some of us balled into scram range. On top of that some of the guys who come to help had blaster fits also, had to get close (I didn't, I was using drones).
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2016-11-16 15:56:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Steffles
Starrakatt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Beast of Revelations wrote:

What a tragedy. I'm sure you think you should have gotten out with no losses, and should have been able to take him on with even less than a small gang.

As for me, my BS was attacked upon undocking from a station by two cruisers, one was Amarr, the other was Caldari. They attacked me completely without fear. At first I simply docked back up at the station (somehow the warp scrambler didn't scramble on one of the attempts). But then I said "waitaminute... I bought this thing to put it through trials, so let's put it through trials, losses be damned!" So I undocked again several minutes later. The two clowns were gone, but I just sat there outside the station and within a minute they warped right back and attacked me.

They won fairly easily. Then again, I'm no elite PvP'er, so take it with a grain of salt.


This is an example of someone who donesn't want to understand something.

It took NINE of us to kill that guy in one ship (a TECH 1 ship that was, btw , LESS EXPENSIVE than some of the ships it took to kill it),.

Even with a 9 to 1 advantage (in terms of players, something like 11 to 1 in terms of ship value) he still killed one of us and almost killed 2 others. 1 Less DPS ship on our part and the outcome would have been different.

Yet somehow you think these kinds of ships need to be even stronger. What you don't get is that if that happens people will jsut start flying battleships all the time, and in short order the gameplay will become stale and stagnant for all of us, but especially for people who don't like battleships.

I'm starting to understand that you aren't interested in good gameplay, but rather you just want the game to match your (real life based) expectations.

That's a Megathron? Off a Stargate/Station where he can't de-agress, one long point t1 cruiser (with ranged weapons) and a couple of Tracking Disruptor can kill it. But then, everything has a counter. The thing is a brawler, ofc you going to lose **** if you get in scram/web range.

Yup - people doing ******** shite around battleships and then whining because they died. Like the "proof" someone linked once that a Rokh with small pulse are effective ships - when I watched it I saw 8ish people getting slaughtered by a Rokh with small pulse, yet they're sitting at 5km or orbiting at 5km apparantly not having any clue the ships fitted with small pulse despite the damage indicator and look at being available.


Jenn aSide wrote:
Starrakatt wrote:
[
That's a Megathron? Off a Stargate/Station where he can't de-agress, one long point t1 cruiser (with ranged weapons) and a couple of Tracking Disruptor can kill it. But then, everything has a counter. The thing is a brawler, ofc you going to lose **** if you get in scram/web range.


Fights don't happen in perfect conditions, it's hard to dictate range when warping around trying to catch a guy, and having to scan him down with probes. And we fought with what we had, not taking the time to reship into some perfect combo , if we'd waited he'd have escaped back into low sec. And we had to kill him quick because he had friends nearby, and we didn't know if he had an mjd so some of us balled into scram range. On top of that some of the guys who come to help had blaster fits alos, had to get close (I didn't, I was using drones).

Lol hard to dictate range on a mega when you're in cruisers battlecruisers n hacs.....

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
Hell's Kitchen.
#203 - 2016-11-16 15:57:01 UTC
Starrakatt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

It took us a small gang to kill him, and he still killed one of our HACs, a Curse, before we could kill him.


What a tragedy. I'm sure you think you should have gotten out with no losses, and should have been able to take him on with even less than a small gang.

As for me, my BS was attacked upon undocking from a station by two cruisers, one was Amarr, the other was Caldari. They attacked me completely without fear. At first I simply docked back up at the station (somehow the warp scrambler didn't scramble on one of the attempts). But then I said "waitaminute... I bought this thing to put it through trials, so let's put it through trials, losses be damned!" So I undocked again several minutes later. The two clowns were gone, but I just sat there outside the station and within a minute they warped right back and attacked me.

They won fairly easily. Then again, I'm no elite PvP'er, so take it with a grain of salt.


This is an example of someone who donesn't want to understand something.

It took NINE of us to kill that guy in one ship (a TECH 1 ship that was, btw , LESS EXPENSIVE than some of the ships it took to kill it),.

Even with a 9 to 1 advantage (in terms of players, something like 11 to 1 in terms of ship value) he still killed one of us and almost killed 2 others. 1 Less DPS ship on our part and the outcome would have been different.

Yet somehow you think these kinds of ships need to be even stronger. What you don't get is that if that happens people will jsut start flying battleships all the time, and in short order the gameplay will become stale and stagnant for all of us, but especially for people who don't like battleships.

I'm starting to understand that you aren't interested in good gameplay, but rather you just want the game to match your (real life based) expectations.

That's a Megathron? Off a Stargate/Station where he can't de-agress, one long point t1 cruiser (with ranged weapons) and a couple of Tracking Disruptor can kill it. But then, everything has a counter. The thing is a brawler, ofc you going to lose **** if you get in scram/web range.


thats what mjd's are for :)

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#204 - 2016-11-16 16:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Lan Wang wrote:

thats what mjd's are for :)


Exactly. We'd lost the same guy twice in previous days because he was mjd fit. This time turns out he wasn't.
Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#205 - 2016-11-16 16:00:39 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Starrakatt wrote:
[
That's a Megathron? Off a Stargate/Station where he can't de-agress, one long point t1 cruiser (with ranged weapons) and a couple of Tracking Disruptor can kill it. But then, everything has a counter. The thing is a brawler, ofc you going to lose **** if you get in scram/web range.


Fights don't happen in perfect conditions, it's hard to dictate range when warping around trying to catch a guy, and having to scan him down with probes. And we fought with what we had, not taking the time to reship into some perfect combo , if we'd waited he'd have escaped back into low sec.

I get that.

I had a few fights with a leet Hyperion a while ago, killed quite a few ships before losing the thing.

Then I got a new one, and lost it immediately to a gang that refused to get in scram range.

That being said, I am a partisan of balancing T3C to a reasonable power level.

Once that is done, then I guess CCP could work on BLOPS and to finish re-balance Battleship to everything else.

I'd liek to see Battleships get role bonuses, like Battlecruisers: CBC got application role bonuses, ABC's role bonus is use of Large Turrets.
Beast of Revelations
Multiverse Trading
#206 - 2016-11-16 16:09:50 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Yet somehow you think these kinds of ships need to be even stronger. What you don't get is that if that happens people will jsut start flying battleships all the time


It isn't that I don't 'get' what you are saying, it's just that it's a dumb non-issue. Yeah, I know you hate real world analogies, but I'm gonna use one anyway. The US navy wasn't all 'just battleships' back when battleships were king. And it isn't all 'just carriers' now that carriers are king. So there's no particular reason that it would be 'just battleships' if battleships were where they should be in this game.

Quote:
I'm starting to understand that you aren't interested in good gameplay, but rather you just want the game to match your (real life based) expectations.


From my perspective, I'd say the same of you - you aren't interested in good gameplay, and you just want the game to match your own expectations, wants, preferences, whatever.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#207 - 2016-11-16 16:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Beast of Revelations wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Yet somehow you think these kinds of ships need to be even stronger. What you don't get is that if that happens people will jsut start flying battleships all the time


It isn't that I don't 'get' what you are saying, it's just that it's a dumb non-issue. Yeah, I know you hate real world analogies, but I'm gonna use one anyway. The US navy wasn't all 'just battleships' back when battleships were king. And it isn't all 'just carriers' now that carriers are king. So there's no particular reason that it would be 'just battleships' if battleships were where they should be in this game.


Sigh. This is not the real world. The United States Navy has nothing to do with internet spaceships. And we've seen overpowered ships dominate this game before. Nano hacs. Ishtars Online Drakes Online. Svipuls . the Mordus (ie "Balanced") Legion etc etc.

In your ignorance and lack of in-game historical context you are advocating "Battleships Online" without knowing it. Go and actually watch some of the many videos I have linked, Battleships are already powerful ships that can defeat groups of smaller ships. The thing is that right now you have to be a GOOD pilot to do that, not some novice (or Infinity Ziona, which is the same thing).

Here is another, click on this link and actually watch it. Unless, that is, you want to concede that you are not at all interested in the truth of the matter.



Quote:

From my perspective, I'd say the same of you - you aren't interested in good gameplay, and you just want the game to match your own expectations, wants, preferences, whatever.


This is just you projecting. I don't start this train wreck of a thread about a subject I have ZERO experience with. That was you, and you started because years ago you were on a real life Battleship, now you are playing a video game with spaceships called Battleships and somehow you want them to be like the real life things you remember.

That's beyond silly.
Othran
Route One
#208 - 2016-11-16 16:37:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
I think this is probably trolling from the OP now.

The last BS the USA built (USS Wisconsin) was 72 years ago & had a lifespan of just over 2 years before being decommissioned. It was reactivated for Korea/Vietnam for artillery purposes. Edit - also for Gulf War 1 apparently Ugh
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#209 - 2016-11-16 16:52:48 UTC
Othran wrote:
I think this is probably trolling from the OP now.

The last BS the USA built (USS Wisconsin) was 72 years ago & had a lifespan of just over 2 years before being decommissioned. It was reactivated for Korea/Vietnam for artillery purposes. Edit - also for Gulf War 1 apparently Ugh

Talking about real world battleships in a discussion about internet spaceships makes about as much sense as discussing oil-fired steam turbines in a discussion about fictional warp drives.

I'm a huge naval history buff, but seriously, it's time to let that dead horse lie.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#210 - 2016-11-16 17:05:31 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Othran wrote:
I think this is probably trolling from the OP now.

The last BS the USA built (USS Wisconsin) was 72 years ago & had a lifespan of just over 2 years before being decommissioned. It was reactivated for Korea/Vietnam for artillery purposes. Edit - also for Gulf War 1 apparently Ugh

Talking about real world battleships in a discussion about internet spaceships makes about as much sense as discussing oil-fired steam turbines in a discussion about fictional warp drives.

I'm a huge naval history buff, but seriously, it's time to let that dead horse lie.

That's not true I don't think. The line of EvE ships was based on naval ships. The original line up was frigates, cruisers, battleships, then destroyers, battlecruisers, carriers and dreadnoughts were added. They are all real world hulls reflecting relative size ratios to the original naval versions too.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#211 - 2016-11-16 17:06:08 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Here is another, click on this link and actually watch it. Unless, that is, you want to concede that you are not at all interested in the truth of the matter.

"Balls of Pure Amarrian Steel."

Priceless.

That video inspired me with my current levels of 'Geddon-love. I'm still convinced that it may be the single most versatile ship in the game.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#212 - 2016-11-16 17:17:57 UTC
Beast of Revelations wrote:

Perhaps you think a couple of frigs or cruisers should be able to take out a super-capital?



Given enough time and ammo they can, even NPCs have taken down a nyx.
Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#213 - 2016-11-16 17:19:23 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Here is another, click on this link and actually watch it. Unless, that is, you want to concede that you are not at all interested in the truth of the matter.

"Balls of Pure Amarrian Steel."

Priceless.

That video inspired me with my current levels of 'Geddon-love. I'm still convinced that it may be the single most versatile ship in the game.

We're talking battleships though.

The Geddon has bonuses to Nuets (a generic non-battleship weapon), Bonuses to drones (a generic non-battleship weappon) and can use RHML which shoots cruiser sized missiles.

Lets see that with a battleship that can't fit RHML, bonused nuets and bonused drones...

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#214 - 2016-11-16 17:24:04 UTC
Steffles wrote:
That's not true I don't think. The line of EvE ships was based on naval ships. The original line up was frigates, cruisers, battleships, then destroyers, battlecruisers, carriers and dreadnoughts were added. They are all real world hulls reflecting relative size ratios to the original naval versions too.

Relative hull size and name? Sure.

Actual mission and capability? Heck no. If that were the case, battleships in EvE would be faster than cruisers (and arguably destroyers and frigates), carry huge batteries of small-caliber, fast tracking guns, provide leadership bonuses, etc.

There's simply no comparison.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#215 - 2016-11-16 17:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Steffles
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Steffles wrote:
That's not true I don't think. The line of EvE ships was based on naval ships. The original line up was frigates, cruisers, battleships, then destroyers, battlecruisers, carriers and dreadnoughts were added. They are all real world hulls reflecting relative size ratios to the original naval versions too.

Relative hull size and name? Sure.

Actual mission and capability? Heck no. If that were the case, battleships in EvE would be faster than cruisers (and arguably destroyers and frigates), carry huge batteries of small-caliber, fast tracking guns, provide leadership bonuses, etc.

There's simply no comparison.

No because:

2003: All ships restricted to 8,8,8 slots max (still like this), they were around the same top speed, the differences were in align, accleration. There were no command boosts.

Most T1's including battleships were at release ships.

You do have a point though, they should have gun versions of the RHML.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#216 - 2016-11-16 17:39:28 UTC
Steffles wrote:
The Geddon has bonuses to Nuets (a generic non-battleship weapon), Bonuses to drones (a generic non-battleship weappon) and can use RHML which shoots cruiser sized missiles.

Lets see that with a battleship that can't fit RHML, bonused nuets and bonused drones....

The 'Geddon is, admittedly, in a very good place and probably more suited to solo work than gun battleships. But that doesn't mean it's the only one suited for it. A Domi or an RHML 'Phoon would arguably be better for soloing than a 'Geddon because of their bonuses to application.

But soloing isn't everything. A lone rail Eagle is a joke. A pack of them can be a nightmare. That doesn't mean it's broken and needs to be fixed, it just means you need to learn how to fly it.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#217 - 2016-11-16 17:44:36 UTC
Steffles wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Steffles wrote:
That's not true I don't think. The line of EvE ships was based on naval ships. The original line up was frigates, cruisers, battleships, then destroyers, battlecruisers, carriers and dreadnoughts were added. They are all real world hulls reflecting relative size ratios to the original naval versions too.

Relative hull size and name? Sure.

Actual mission and capability? Heck no. If that were the case, battleships in EvE would be faster than cruisers (and arguably destroyers and frigates), carry huge batteries of small-caliber, fast tracking guns, provide leadership bonuses, etc.

There's simply no comparison.

No because:

2003: All ships restricted to 8,8,8 slots max (still like this), they were around the same top speed, the differences were in align, accleration. There were no command boosts.

Most T1's including battleships were at release ships.

You do have a point though, they should have gun versions of the RHML.


I think you missed my point, and in doing so proved it.

IRL battleships typically were faster than IRL cruisers*. The reverse is true in EvE.

IRL battleships typically had far fewer constraints on how many, and how many types, of supporting weapons than any other ship. In EvE, everything is limited to 8,8,8.

IRL battleships provided significant command and control benefits to other ships in the fleet. EvE battleships provide nothing.

See where I'm going with this? In terms of capabilities, EvE battleships are nothing like IRL ones.



*This is largely a result of a neat little trick of physics that states that the speed of a displacement hull through water is goes up as the waterline length goes up. Therefore, all other things being equal, bigger ships go faster, to a point.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#218 - 2016-11-16 18:25:24 UTC
Steffles wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Here is another, click on this link and actually watch it. Unless, that is, you want to concede that you are not at all interested in the truth of the matter.

"Balls of Pure Amarrian Steel."

Priceless.

That video inspired me with my current levels of 'Geddon-love. I'm still convinced that it may be the single most versatile ship in the game.

We're talking battleships though.

The Geddon has bonuses to Nuets (a generic non-battleship weapon), Bonuses to drones (a generic non-battleship weappon) and can use RHML which shoots cruiser sized missiles.

Lets see that with a battleship that can't fit RHML, bonused nuets and bonused drones...



Pest and cruise phoon
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#219 - 2016-11-16 18:34:07 UTC
This is what you posted.

baltec1 wrote:


This is the reply you will get.


BUT BUT BUT!!
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#220 - 2016-11-16 19:08:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Honorpoint best point.

Heh. Love it.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs