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927 Combat Roam, Ships & Ordnance Supplied!
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Matar Ronin
#401 - 2016-11-15 04:19:26 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Okay, let me try it then.

1. Caldari Prime was coerced into joining the Federation.
Nice to see you publicly admit that everything that follows number one happened because Caldari leadership was weak and foolish enough to be coerced into joining the Federation. The old garbage in garbage out theory comes into play when unelected corp leaders who might have been skilled at making money tried to play the role of interplanetary cultural experts/diplomats. If only the Caldari had had qualified people answerable to the general public making those initial key decisions, how many lives would have been saved?


I guess you've never been part of a board meeting that elected a CEO. Also, guess who's ancestors weren't rescued by a foreign power?

That's right. My ancestors.
Pilot Tuulinen I'd rather have my ancestors rescued by a foreign power than duped by a foreign power. Based on the Caldari Amarr Alliance it is clearly a lesson your people have yet to learn.

But I take that back, it's not entirely true, the Amarr aren't duping the Caldari this time, they clearly have told you that their slavery based reclaiming will include you when they are strong enough to accomplish it. Looks like your Caldari leadership brokered a deal to give them time to gather that strength,brilliant!

The old garbage in garbage out theory comes into play when non-publicly elected corp leaders who might have been quite skilled at making money try to play the role of interplanetary military & cultural experts/diplomats. So again if only the Caldari had qualified people answerable to the general public making those key decisions, how many lives would be saved?

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#402 - 2016-11-15 04:27:38 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
He started it.

We gained aid from a foreign power to fight one of their enemies. Lets be honest here, our own blood was spilled for our freedom. Whether the tools were marked with an eagle, a couple arches, or simply rust and blood is irrelevant to us carving our own destinies out of what once was. Someone should remember who's fight is closer to its end goal. I'm sure our ancestors can be proud either way.

If you even remember who your ancestors are. Nobody took our culture from us. While we're at it, I didn't start it.

Human beings, not a tube. Same question back at you. And your absolutely right, we have more bonds than back then though we still hold parts of our own unique tribes. Ask Kim how that's going for her people under the state. I'm dropping the you started it thing since ya that was a miss call calling it on you.
Matar Ronin
#403 - 2016-11-15 04:33:16 UTC
So before this gets out of hand I will state for the record again in public, there is much I admire and respect about the Caldari people. I think they need a better class of ally. I do not wish the experience of my people on anyone else, certainly not the Caldari who bring and give so much to the entire New Eden Cluster.

I worry for your future because of our past.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#404 - 2016-11-15 04:33:55 UTC
Probably I should be going and getting a bowl of popcorn about now.

Somehow I don't really feel like it, though.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#405 - 2016-11-15 05:17:15 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
So before this gets out of hand I will state for the record again in public, there is much I admire and respect about the Caldari people. I think they need a better class of ally. I do not wish the experience of my people on anyone else, certainly not the Caldari who bring and give so much to the entire New Eden Cluster.

I worry for your future because of our past.

I agree that there's cause for concern - like your people, though, we maintain an uncomfortable situation out of need. If the Gallente situation continues to calm down, perhaps unnatural alliances can be a thing of the past. I'd rather have four peaces than two alliances.

Ms Vess, you do know the tube isn't really my mother, right? If I chose, I could unseal my records and get that information. The Hall of Records has my full legacy on file, the Company knows precisely who I am.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#406 - 2016-11-15 05:51:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Deitra Vess
Yes I did know that. Though the fact you have to unseal your records and look proves my point...
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#407 - 2016-11-15 06:30:00 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Yes I did know that. Though the fact you have to unseal your records and look proves my point...

I respect the privacy of my progenitors. I may not know their names but the fact that their genes were used in so many batches tells you a lot. Besides, as a natural born friend of mine once said, it's a wise child that knows their own father.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#408 - 2016-11-15 07:48:39 UTC
I do have to admit, that was a good answer.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#409 - 2016-11-16 06:54:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Matar Ronin wrote:
If only the Caldari had had qualified people answerable to the general public making those initial key decisions, how many lives would have been saved?


Corporate citizens are issued voting stocks based on position and length of service to the company. At quarterly or annual General Meetings they can vote on matters presented to them by the Executive Board. Dependent on corporate charter a measure presented that attracts significant, "No," vote usually set at 30% is considered as a, "Strike," against that Board. With three strikes against a board triggering a No Confidence leadership spill which dissolves the current Board and causes a shareholder election for a new Board.

A No Confidence motion against an Executive Board may also be put forward to vote by the owners of more than 30% of total shares to set in motion a general vote to dissolve a Board and re-elect a new one.

The most recent occurrence of such an act at a Megacorporate level was when the Executive Board of Kaalakiota placed the motion for a vote of No Confidence in Tibus Heth as CEO before the citizen-shareholders of Kaalakiota in YC 115 which was passed by the voting citizenry of Kaalakiota. [1]

Before implying political disenfranchisement in the State you might want to inform yourself on how corporate governance actually works among Caldari businesses, Mr. Ronin.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Matar Ronin
#410 - 2016-11-16 10:08:03 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
If only the Caldari had had qualified people answerable to the general public making those initial key decisions, how many lives would have been saved?


Corporate citizens are issued voting stocks based on position and length of service to the company. At quarterly or annual General Meetings they can vote on matters presented to them by the Executive Board. Dependent on corporate charter a measure presented that attracts significant, "No," vote usually set at 30% is considered as a, "Strike," against that Board. With three strikes against a board triggering a No Confidence leadership spill which dissolves the current Board and causes a shareholder election for a new Board.

A No Confidence motion against an Executive Board may also be put forward to vote by the owners of more than 30% of total shares to set in motion a general vote to dissolve a Board and re-elect a new one.

The most recent occurrence of such an act at a Megacorporate level was when the Executive Board of Kaalakiota placed the motion for a vote of No Confidence in Tibus Heth as CEO before the citizen-shareholders of Kaalakiota in YC 115 which was passed by the voting citizenry of Kaalakiota. [1]

Before implying political disenfranchisement in the State you might want to inform yourself on how corporate governance actually works among Caldari businesses, Mr. Ronin.
Before you climb too high upon your self deluding high horse you might want to consider how many citizens of the Caldari State actually own voting stocks in any of the megacorps. Then you'd have to consider that the last time they elected officers were the pressing issues of war versus peace the issues that elevated the candidates towards the board? Since no two corps are ran the exact same way what were/are the specific terms upon which issues are presented to and then perhaps subsequently voted on by the board? I would venture that the vast majority of Caldari State citizens, who suffer in crushing poverty like tibus heth and the great Otro Gariushi did before climbing to power do not own voting stocks in all the megacorps so if you are lucky enough to own one stock from the big eight it has a diluted power compared to the other seven. That doesn't even take into consideration the mega stockholders who own large numbers of voting stocks who disenfranchise your vote in the corp you do have stock in.

So before you start shooting off your mouth about how corps operate consider the fact that I am a corp CEO and a small alliance CEO so I am well versed in how corps operate. That is not knowledge held secretly by the Caldari.

So you can either kindly present documented proof of what percentage of the Caldari population owns voting stocks in all the megacorps or be honest and admit you have no real idea and are only guessing and saying what sounds nice albeit a possible total fantasy Pilot Gesakaarin. Until you can do that my question is valid and still stands unanswered,
Quote:
If only the Caldari had had qualified people answerable to the general public making those initial key decisions, how many lives would have been saved?

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#411 - 2016-11-16 11:50:52 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:

So you can either kindly present documented proof of what percentage of the Caldari population owns voting stocks in all the megacorps or be honest and admit you have no real idea and are only guessing and saying what sounds nice albeit a possible total fantasy Pilot Gesakaarin. Until you can do that my question is valid and still stands unanswered,
Quote:
If only the Caldari had had qualified people answerable to the general public making those initial key decisions, how many lives would have been saved?



As an example, when Mens Reppola was voted into CEO of Ishukone he sought to:

"...call for the Ishukone board to encourage employee investment in the corporation, suggesting that they make two-thirds of the Ishukone shares in their hands (roughly 20% of the company's total shares) available for purchase by Ishukone employees. [1]

My point stands. Voting stocks are made available to corporate citizens, the manner in which they are made available varies between Megacorporations, and if citizens choose not to invest in their own company then by rights they should not have a say in choosing its direction.

Although I would say your mistake is in thinking that for the Caldari there exists a wildly held notion that political rights are inherent or universal -- they are not. They are earned in the State at an individual level through work and ability, if they wish involvement in corporate governance and affairs.

Besides, why should the general public as a whole ever have a say in favour of leaders who instead rise up through the ranks on their own merits?

The general public chose Tibus Heth five years ago, and he proved to be an idiot who almost bankrupted Kaalakiota because he had no experience or training in actually managing a company on the scale he was swept into. That's the kind of lunacy that occurs when populist mobs have power and not strong institutions -- forklift drivers become CEO's and nearly destroy a company that has existed for centuries.

So again, educate yourself you stooge.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Matar Ronin
#412 - 2016-11-16 16:02:39 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:

So you can either kindly present documented proof of what percentage of the Caldari population owns voting stocks in all the megacorps or be honest and admit you have no real idea and are only guessing and saying what sounds nice albeit a possible total fantasy Pilot Gesakaarin. Until you can do that my question is valid and still stands unanswered,
Quote:
If only the Caldari had had qualified people answerable to the general public making those initial key decisions, how many lives would have been saved?



As an example, when Mens Reppola was voted into CEO of Ishukone he sought to:

"...call for the Ishukone board to encourage employee investment in the corporation, suggesting that they make two-thirds of the Ishukone shares in their hands (roughly 20% of the company's total shares) available for purchase by Ishukone employees. [1]

My point stands. Voting stocks are made available to corporate citizens, the manner in which they are made available varies between Megacorporations, and if citizens choose not to invest in their own company then by rights they should not have a say in choosing its direction.

Although I would say your mistake is in thinking that for the Caldari there exists a wildly held notion that political rights are inherent or universal -- they are not. They are earned in the State at an individual level through work and ability, if they wish involvement in corporate governance and affairs.

Besides, why should the general public as a whole ever have a say in favour of leaders who instead rise up through the ranks on their own merits?

The general public chose Tibus Heth five years ago, and he proved to be an idiot who almost bankrupted Kaalakiota because he had no experience or training in actually managing a company on the scale he was swept into. That's the kind of lunacy that occurs when populist mobs have power and not strong institutions -- forklift drivers become CEO's and nearly destroy a company that has existed for centuries.

So again, educate yourself you stooge.
You are a poor example of a debater. You can't answer one basic question so you quickly resort to name calling. You have chosen to not try and win the discussion on merit and instead only put forth entertaining inaccurate posturing positions to reassure the status quo.

Honestly the facts are stacked against you so you had no real chance to prevail even if your intellectual skills had been more refined.

The question never was what Caldari citizens believe is a legitimate political process but what other process might have actually served their interests better! You missed the point and charged straight for the juvenile name calling instead.

When ever a person has a shut down in their ability to consider other possibilities beyond the historical record they impede their ability to see what might have been or even what could still come to be.

It seems you seek to argue that history is replete with Caldari State leadership making all the right choices because their system is perfect and as such can only produce perfect results. The monkey wrench of reality is that tibus heth rose to power via that Caldari System. There was no general election of all Caldari citizens that brought him to power. Thuggish power plays in the streets moved comfortably into Caldari boardrooms and tibus heth used the fundamental weakness of the Corp system to enact a violent hostile take over that cost countless lives and could have plunged the entire New Eden Cluster into open warfare.

You might feel comfortable skirting the facts you don't know but there absence nonetheless is very obvious.

What percentage of the general Caldari population own voting stocks in the eight megacorps?

What percentage of the general Caldari population own voting stocks in all eight megacorps?

How many other corps exist in the Caldari State that are way smaller then the megacorps and how do they make their corp voices heard in deciding issues that impact the entire state?

What percentage of voting stocks are held by a small number of wealthy investors giving them mega-voting power?

What percentage of the general Caldari population can afford to invest in voting stocks from corps other then where they work?

These are just a few of the questions you can't answer while making a feeble defense of what you clearly don't understand. Perhaps you might look up the definition of a "stooge" and then take a long hard look in the nearest mirror.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#413 - 2016-11-16 16:14:23 UTC
... *sigh*

So, Mr. Ronin? I know you don't normally listen to me when I say such things, but Veiki Gesakaarin is maybe another one of those people you don't want to successfully annoy.

She might be looking for a hobby. Just saying.

(Also, her comments about the competence of a population to rule itself are actually widespread sentiment in the State, and I'm not sure there's a compelling counter-argument. Why would anyone expect a bunch of laborers and technicians to be suited to deciding, or even choosing leaders to decide, questions of macroeconomics and foreign policy? It's amazing to me that the Federation's worked as well as it has for as long as it has.)
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#414 - 2016-11-16 16:17:44 UTC
Is this thread going to cover every cluster**** in the universe before it dies?

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#415 - 2016-11-16 16:19:30 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Is this thread going to cover every cluster**** in the universe before it dies?


I kind of hope so. It'd be better than watching it devolve into an endless insult match.

Soooo ... Intaki separatism, anyone?
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#416 - 2016-11-16 16:21:40 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Is this thread going to cover every cluster**** in the universe before it dies?


I kind of hope so. It'd be better than watching it devolve into an endless insult match.

Soooo ... Intaki separatism, anyone?

I was thinking of something along the lines of Aura's new voice....

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#417 - 2016-11-16 16:49:32 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Is this thread going to cover every cluster**** in the universe before it dies?


I kind of hope so. It'd be better than watching it devolve into an endless insult match.

Soooo ... Intaki separatism, anyone?

I was thinking of something along the lines of Aura's new voice....

That just comes down to taste and aesthetics, though.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#418 - 2016-11-16 17:08:17 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Is this thread going to cover every cluster**** in the universe before it dies?

This is a reasonable discussion with some good points being made, not every thread on the IGS should be about how other people need to be blocked, mad ravings of druggies and slapstick comedy.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#419 - 2016-11-16 18:20:42 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

Soooo ... Intaki separatism, anyone?

Do they wish to get their independence? Do they have the means to survive on their own with little to no help? Why not? They should be given that option, they should also fight for it if that's their wish. Not saying I believe they can take on the Federation alone so let's hope cooler heads prevail.
Merchant Rova
Tidal Lock
Vapor-Lock
#420 - 2016-11-16 18:37:15 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:

Soooo ... Intaki separatism, anyone?

Do they wish to get their independence? Do they have the means to survive on their own with little to no help? Why not? They should be given that option, they should also fight for it if that's their wish. Not saying I believe they can take on the Federation alone so let's hope cooler heads prevail.

Give them their vote. They they can see that they need the Federation.

RIP Merchant Rova's cheekbones, YC118-YC119. Forever in our hearts.