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New Dev Blog: CSM December summit – meeting minutes are out

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#361 - 2012-01-18 21:46:56 UTC
Mara Villoso wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
resub stuff

I think 12 to 24 months would be a good measure. I don't know how much "space" all those characters and their belongings takes up, but it can't be that much. So, there doesn't appear to be any reason related to server space to wipe them off the server; however, there are a large number of character names, corp names, tickers, etc that are unavailable because the characters haven't logged on in years. It seems reasonable to approach the issue from that angle. Perhaps, if you haven't logged on in 18 months or more (roughly the length of a tour of duty plus a few months; many eve players are in the military), your character gets "consolidated." All your items are auto sold on the market for whatever the current highest Jita buy price is, the ISK is dropped into your wallet, then your character is transferred to an npc corp (perhaps one that exists solely for this reason), your pod/clone is moved to hisec (perhaps your starter corp system), and your character name becomes one of those [race name] Citizen 101 type names. If the player eventually returns, he's got a nest egg and is given the opportunity to change the name.


So you're asking to be able to take over the identity of e-famous Eve players after some relatively short period of time.

Make your own history.

Make your own way.

Make your own name.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kamuria
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#362 - 2012-01-18 21:47:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kamuria
Concerning the implants removal I think there's a place for a compromise.

Keep only +3, +4 and +5 implants and make the +5 worth 12 millions, +4 worth 8 millions and +3 worth 2 millions.

Introduce implant sets (snake and others) at +3, +4, +5 with their usual bonus and the economy will take care of their real value.

The idea behind this is that training time is the most precious asset in this game for many people and doing pvp with a set of +5 is way too risky. If the implants are cheaper you'll start to see carebears defending their high sec corp and doing a bit more pvp. On the other hand if people don't mind blowing off 1b of implants in pvp, they still have the option with the rare set of implants. You shouldn't have to spend that big of a fortune to train fast, especially not when you want to introduce many new players to this game with a 2 to 5 years gap, but you'll have to spend a lot more if you want fast training and ship bonuses.


Edit : By the way I support the idea of small incursions for new players staging in 1.0 rookie systems only. I remember doing blitz lvl 3 missions with newbies and they enjoyed it a lot. That could be a similar experience and i'm sure they'll like it.
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#363 - 2012-01-18 21:54:30 UTC
mkint wrote:
After all this time, after 4 years of treating FW like crap, after not showing up to their own GODDAMNED MEETING on the subject, what hippy loving HELL makes you think CCP gives even the slightest sh!t about FW or making it good?

Nothing, other than the fact that they said they gave a sh!t and would like to make it good.

I for one am looking forward to seeing the results of CCP's planning meetings. It will be interesting to see what is getting some love in the short and medium term (ie: summer and winter expansions).

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Cash Stalker
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#364 - 2012-01-18 21:56:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Cash Stalker
she got a point about the names stuff.
one or two years seems fair to me.
unless it really dont take much space.
the only thing i hate to lost is my player name.
good player names are hard to get.
i always try to use the same names in all the games i play.
and with just one server its vary hard to get one.
thats the only thing wow has going for it.
names are per server.
if one server is taken go to the next.
that i like.
i would love to change some of my toons names.
but all the names i like or taken.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#365 - 2012-01-18 21:57:23 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
mkint wrote:
After all this time, after 4 years of treating FW like crap, after not showing up to their own GODDAMNED MEETING on the subject, what hippy loving HELL makes you think CCP gives even the slightest sh!t about FW or making it good?

Nothing, other than the fact that they said they gave a sh!t and would like to make it good.

I for one am looking forward to seeing the results of CCP's planning meetings. It will be interesting to see what is getting some love in the short and medium term (ie: summer and winter expansions).


You know what says that they're gong to give a **** about FW?

CCP Unifex.

Seriously. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#366 - 2012-01-18 21:58:53 UTC
Just read Two-Step's blog-post.

Two step wrote:
A wormhole stabilizer would just allow groups like AHARM (and Narwhals, Starbridge and others) to further dominate high class wormhole space. Right now, we don't bother to invade small groups in C5s because it is a lot of effort for us to move capitals in and move them back out when we are done. If there was a way for us to move large numbers through a wormhole, we would easily be able to attack these groups. It would also allow large nullsec groups to rampage through w-space.


Emphasis mine, but I'm sure any such result from instituting a "wormhole stabiliser" would be purely co-incidental. [/cynicism]

You really need to stand for CSM 7.

And this just proves a certainty I've long had: Nullsec alliances are nothing but a ******* cancer on this game.

Like an actual cancer, they grow completely out of control, consuming the body's resources to feed themselves faster than the body can replenish, whilst corrupting the functionality of healthy systems, until the body can no longer support them, and dies. They consume, and give back nothing, only to consume some more.

And it would seem that soon, this now-metastasised cancer is going to spread to FW/losec.

Time for some radiation-therapy, here. Of an aggressive nature. Cancers can be beaten, but they need to be caught earlier, not later. And once caught, the patient needs to be closely watched to see that they don't return, or if they do, then they get caught early again, in their turn. Caught, and...excised.

Ni.
mkint
#367 - 2012-01-18 22:00:50 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
mkint wrote:
After all this time, after 4 years of treating FW like crap, after not showing up to their own GODDAMNED MEETING on the subject, what hippy loving HELL makes you think CCP gives even the slightest sh!t about FW or making it good?

Nothing, other than the fact that they said they gave a sh!t and would like to make it good.

I for one am looking forward to seeing the results of CCP's planning meetings. It will be interesting to see what is getting some love in the short and medium term (ie: summer and winter expansions).

So, even after the ONLY idea they propose (and appear to be pushing through in spite of only getting negative feedback) is 4 years out of date, was not asked for by FWers but by griefers, and not discussing ANYTHING with actual FWers, you still think they give a sh!t about the mechanic? Are you kidding me? They also said "incarna will be awsum" "in PI you will be able to be a benevolent ruler or dominate" and "supercaps will be rare." They words aren't worth the sh!t it's scrawled onto the bathroom floor with.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Di Mulle
#368 - 2012-01-18 22:02:30 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:


Inactive accounts should be deleted, along with all game assets, after a short grace period (to allow for resub mistakes).

For the 0.00000001% of inactive players who actually decide to resub, then, yes, they can have the fun of starting from scratch again. Give them a cerebral accelerator, 60 days of free game time, and 5,000 AUR as a resub bonus, if some sort of incentive is needed.



Not sure if serious.
<<Insert some waste of screen space here>>
Jita Alt666
#369 - 2012-01-18 22:07:19 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:

How so? Hard numbers, please.


Do you actually know anyone that has not been unsubbed for more than 3-6 months over the course of a few years playing Eve? I don't think I do.

-Liang

Ed: Also, I don't have the "hard numbers" - but CCP does. I only have the numbers for me and my friends - of which all of them have been unsubbed at various points for significant time periods. And I assure you that saying such silly things does nothing but marginalize every opinion you espouse.


Actually I don't, but anecdotal evidence =/= representative evidence.

For every "on-hiatus" player, how many inactive accounts are there that have been dark that have no intention of coming back? I suspect many, many more.

We need numbers on this, CCP, plx, kthxbai.


I have about 12 accounts. Currently 4 are inactive. One (an FC alt) has been inactive for about 14 months. When I am in a position to lead more fleets in a group that will benefit from that alt I will resub. I wonder how many other players are in a similar position with specific alts: Jump freighter, Trade hub back ups, Super cap production etc etc maybe useful for small periods of time over the course of a players interest in Eve Online.
Cash Stalker
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#370 - 2012-01-18 22:10:17 UTC
hmmm the man has a point there.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#371 - 2012-01-18 22:11:54 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:

Inactive accounts should be deleted, along with all game assets, after a short grace period (to allow for resub mistakes).

60 days from the account going dark should be enough, and 90 days would be plenty, by any reasonable definition. If after that, the person decides not to re-sub, then it's not un-reasonable to assume that they almost certainly never will.

Wat. This is provably wrong and is extremely short sighted.

Not really, Liang. And, if I had access to the CCP's account database server, I could probably prove it to your satisfaction.

Resubs are a very, very small percentage of any game's player base. Dedicating company resources to specifically support or attract resubs usually only occurs when new sub numbers are way down, and typically indicate a failure on the part of the sales and marketing dept to come up with any better ideas to increase new sub rates (funny thing is that most resubs actually occur due to being attracted by marketing directed towards new subs, and rarely to any resub-specific incentives). But, in any case, It certainly isn't the smart way to grow a game business, since you can never substantially replenish player attrition via resubs.

Also, remember that, in Eve, older resubs are going to be typically far, far behind the curve in terms of SP and you can't make that up. Who really wants to have a 4 year old PVP toon with less than 5M SP? Looks pretty stupid on the killboards when you get popped by a 6 month old. And, many folks don't want to bother chasing down a bunch of assets, located in forgotten places, which may or may not have any value under the current game mechanics. There are many dis-incentives to resubbing an old account, and often folks prefer to start fresh with a new account. Sure, there are some well-heeled and high SP resubs (such as Letrange), but, out of an active subscriber base of 300K (or whatever it is today), I'd be comfortable arguing that they are the exceptions, and not the norm.

So, why not just leave the inactive account data on the computers? What's the big deal, right? Well...

Inactive accounts - in any large database - consume a great deal of resources. Database tables become excessively large, and search times scale up quickly. Performance drops. The options at this point are limited to (a) buying a bigger and more powerful database server, or (b) pruning the database of inactive accounts. Solution (a) is bad because it cost a lot more money and is only a temporary fix - you run into the same problem again and again as the database continues to grow with inactive accounts. Solution (b) is simply far more economical and practical.

But, let's go back to the *real* issue....

Do you really want new game features to be restricted or veto'ed simply because such features might negatively impact folks who are no longer playing the game? I don't.
Cash Stalker
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#372 - 2012-01-18 22:13:03 UTC
to bad email changes a lot or i say just email the accoint and ask if they plan on comeing back.
but email changes to much.
Mara Villoso
Long Jump.
#373 - 2012-01-18 22:14:52 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
So you're asking to be able to take over the identity of e-famous Eve players after some relatively short period of time.

Make your own history.

Make your own way.

Make your own name.

-Liang

No I'm not asking that. But thanks for putting words in my mouth. My PERSONAL main interest is corp names and tickers. As for character names, so what if a character name gets retaken? I can't remember who it is that has a signature with this quote (or paraphrase), but it applies to this as well: If you can't defend what you have in EVE, you don't deserve it. If they aren't around for 2 years, **** them and their name. Besides, the majority of names aren't "famous" by any stretch of the imagination and a simple look at employment history would show it wasn't the original.

On another note, allow me to put some words into your mouth: Are you defending this so vehemently because you've created cells of scam/spy alts who are skilled up for a purpose, used and subsequently burned them, and then allowed them to lie dormant for ages before you resub them and bring them back out for another op? I can see why someone would want to protect that.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#374 - 2012-01-18 22:18:37 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:

Liang Nuren wrote:
Wat. This is provably wrong and is extremely short sighted.

Not really, Liang. And, if I had access to the CCP's account database server, I could probably prove it to your satisfaction.


I very seriously doubt you could do that. For instance, take a look at Eve's historical subscriber graph and note the large uptick in subscriptions every time they release a new patch. That uptick would almost entirely disappear and all we would be left with would be the constant and slow decay of the subscriber base.

Quote:

So, why not just leave the inactive account data on the computers? What's the big deal, right? Well...

Inactive accounts - in any large database - consume a great deal of resources. Database tables become excessively large, and search times scale up quickly. Performance drops. The options at this point are limited to (a) buying a bigger and more powerful database server, or (b) pruning the database of inactive accounts. Solution (a) is bad because it cost a lot more money and is only a temporary fix - you run into the same problem again and again as the database continues to grow with inactive accounts. Solution (b) is simply far more economical and practical.


This just goes to show how terrible you are at data warehousing and database design really. I'd be glad to address this issue as a sr datawarehouse architect, but lets do it in another venue. :)

Quote:

But, let's go back to the *real* issue....

Do you really want new game features to be restricted or veto'ed simply because such features might negatively impact folks who are no longer playing the game? I don't.


Yes, I would like some thought put into the persistent nature of the game and preserving the history that came before it. I'd like to keep legendary characters legendary, and I'd like to tempt my friends to come back to the game and fly that fancy Megathron that just got boosted.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#375 - 2012-01-18 22:19:14 UTC
Make all 0.0 space NPC space, now that would make things interesting again.

Let peope still deploy outposts if they wish but they will be open like any other NPC station. Also make them all destructible, including existing NPC stations.

How to win EVE
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#376 - 2012-01-18 22:23:34 UTC
Mara Villoso wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
So you're asking to be able to take over the identity of e-famous Eve players after some relatively short period of time.

Make your own history.

Make your own way.

Make your own name.

-Liang

No I'm not asking that. But thanks for putting words in my mouth. My PERSONAL main interest is corp names and tickers. As for character names, so what if a character name gets retaken? I can't remember who it is that has a signature with this quote (or paraphrase), but it applies to this as well: If you can't defend what you have in EVE, you don't deserve it. If they aren't around for 2 years, **** them and their name. Besides, the majority of names aren't "famous" by any stretch of the imagination and a simple look at employment history would show it wasn't the original.

On another note, allow me to put some words into your mouth: Are you defending this so vehemently because you've created cells of scam/spy alts who are skilled up for a purpose, used and subsequently burned them, and then allowed them to lie dormant for ages before you resub them and bring them back out for another op? I can see why someone would want to protect that.


No, I'm attempting to preserve the history of the game. One of the major defining features of Eve is that someone can leave a mark on the game - you can literally become legendary... or infamous. And there have been many such people and corps that have become legendary.

If you want to steal that name and history and make it your own... no. There will only ever be one DarkElf, one Ginger Magician, one m0o. Make your own history.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cash Stalker
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#377 - 2012-01-18 22:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Cash Stalker
one thing that would help is to have the now pvp server we have and a nonpvp server for people like me that like to build and only have to fight npc's.

hmmm... i said this already...lol Ugh
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#378 - 2012-01-18 22:32:53 UTC
mkint wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
mkint wrote:
After all this time, after 4 years of treating FW like crap, after not showing up to their own GODDAMNED MEETING on the subject, what hippy loving HELL makes you think CCP gives even the slightest sh!t about FW or making it good?

Nothing, other than the fact that they said they gave a sh!t and would like to make it good.

I for one am looking forward to seeing the results of CCP's planning meetings. It will be interesting to see what is getting some love in the short and medium term (ie: summer and winter expansions).

So, even after the ONLY idea they propose (and appear to be pushing through in spite of only getting negative feedback) is 4 years out of date, was not asked for by FWers but by griefers, and not discussing ANYTHING with actual FWers, you still think they give a sh!t about the mechanic? Are you kidding me? They also said "incarna will be awsum" "in PI you will be able to be a benevolent ruler or dominate" and "supercaps will be rare." They words aren't worth the sh!t it's scrawled onto the bathroom floor with.


They don't give a flying **** about anything but nullsec alliances, and doing everything they can to force people into same. It's so screamingly obvious, and has been for years.

Hey, mutual masturbation feels good, after all, so why wouldn't they keep the circle-jerk going?

Sand-box, my arse!

Said it before, I'll say it again:

Sov-dullsec alliances and their white-knight fluffers--some of whom work/have worked at CCP, quelle surprise!--are the metastasised cancer of EVE.

As of these minutes, TwoStep, and maybe Trebor is/are the only CSM/s for whom I have any respect at all.

The rest of them--and their alliances, and their legions of pathetically eager blinkered little serfs, and their pet devs at CCP, and their hilariously obvious-from-the-off corrupt election-rigging plus whatever parties make that possible--can just go **** themselves.

Yeah, that's right, I said it.

What are you ******* entitled nabob insignifi-CUNTS going to ******* do about it? Yeah, tell me what, you laughable little *****-ass small-minded soul-dead punks?

Pixel-gank my pixel-spaceship/pod so I have to spend pixel-money to replace them in a video-game to make me haz a sadface?

Trollolololololol, Internet spaceships = SRS BZNS, indeed!

To see who suffers from this most, most of the CSM and their legions of botter-serfs can start by looking in a mirror...Idea

Ni.
Cash Stalker
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#379 - 2012-01-18 22:37:06 UTC
she needs a bar of soap.... Shocked
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#380 - 2012-01-18 22:39:24 UTC
Cash Stalker wrote:
one thing that would help is to have the now pvp server we have and a nonpvp server for people like me that like to build and only have to fight npc's.

hmmm... i said this already...lol Ugh


This is never going to happen, and should never be allowed to happen.

Mate, seriously:

Un-sub already, and save your money, because from your posts it's clear that EVE is not the game for you.

And that's fine, it's most definitely not for everyone.

That quality is what makes EVE, EVE, and makes it great, usually despite CCP, not because of it.

Ni.