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Thoughts on improving the game

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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#601 - 2016-11-15 02:18:20 UTC
Ilany wrote:


Just to be clear, this isn't about stopping players investing time and effort into HVT Hunting or piracy writ large, but rather, to stop CODE and the like from shooting no-value targets for no reason. The only people this would affect are those who are taking advantage of existing mechanics to grief other players. And losing them would really be no loss to the community whatsoever. They could go and play Space Invaders instead.


shooting no value targets for no reason.

well now, let's look at this.

value - each ship lost must be replaced, ships cost isk, i.e.: they have a value.

reason - player refuses to learn how to play the game, refuses to move system, refuses to engage in the game they clicked I agree to when they installed the game knowing well it was a PVP game with non censenual combat, refuse to accept how things are and instead of doing something about it,, oh like getting together and kicking the gankers faces in, nope jump on the forums and have a whine and claim the reason why numbers are down is solely down to ganking and griefing,. total and utter bullshite.

i think it's yourself that needs to go play space invaders.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#602 - 2016-11-15 08:44:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Ilany wrote:
If you had been playing long enough - say 12/13 years - then you would know that was quite the incorrect statement. You would remember that PVP was always possible, but that one could safely autopilot a shuttle from Keberz to Obe without incident.
That's the thing though, non-consensual PvP was always possible. You can quibble about how much safer an autopiloting shuttle was in 2004 vs. 2016, but nothing fundamental has changed. The rule set always allowed highsec criminal engagments and still does.

If CCP intended for Eve to be a nowhere-is-safe, 100% full-time PvP sandbox in 2003, they have not wavered from that grand vision even if many of the specifics of the game, and player behaviour, has. Asking them to throw that all out now and abandon their vision, so many years into development, in some sort of Trammel-esque appeal to a completely different class of players seems poorly thought out.

I mean, go ahead and ask for it if you think it would make you happy, but don't expect much enthusium for such a bad idea on the part of CCP.

Ilany wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
...This makes sense of course because that is the whole point of the game.
And what is the point of the game? If you click on "EVE Universe" at the top you'll land on a page entitled "Explore a universe of opportunities" which goes on to say "What is eve online: Player-created empires, player-driven markets, and endless ways to embark on your personal sci-fi adventure."

It doesn't look like CCP want to publicise their game in narrow way that some contributors to this thread seem to espouse - they have created options so everyone has choice, but some players seem to want to constrain that choice and force everyone to play the game in a way that they approve of... one which isn't actually listed in that chart, but seems to be a cross between suicide ganking and griefing.
Criminal gameplay (AKA "suicide ganking and griefing") has always been intended. Crimewatch, and its successor Crimewatch 2.0 represented a huge developer effort to bring player-driven risk and danger to Empire space. You are never intended to be safe, including in highsec. This is been confirmed many times by CCP developers, and is even spelled out in the official New Pilot FAQ (p.22).

No one is "forcing" anyone to play the game a certain way. Unless of course you mean CCP who is indeed at least making it possible for you to interact with anyone else by purposely designing the game such that you are always vulnerable to other players, even in the safest spaces of the game. It is a PvP sandbox after all, as it has always been since the beginning.
Ilany wrote:
Just to be clear, this isn't about stopping players investing time and effort into HVT Hunting or piracy writ large, but rather, to stop CODE and the like from shooting no-value targets for no reason. The only people this would affect are those who are taking advantage of existing mechanics to grief other players. And losing them would really be no loss to the community whatsoever. They could go and play Space Invaders instead.
Of course though this doesn't just do that. It also makes shooting targets of value that much more difficult. Highsec piracy has been nerfed year after year to the point where it is really a rare occurrence and there are only few dozen players who try to make a living at it. Do we really need to make highsec even safer and risk-free?

The converse side is that if you get shot by CODE. or the like while flying a "no-value target" you haven't lost anything of value right? But realistically there are good reasons to shoot "no-value targets" that sometimes contain valuable items like PLEXes and skill injectors, or the players who have expensive bounties which are paid out on the destruction of expensive pods.

The fundamental idea of Eve is still the same as it was in 2003 when the servers went online. I know it is hard, especially after all these years to admit that perhaps the game you are playing is not the one you think it is, or want it to be, but if you find yourself unhappy with your gaming experience you should look inward (and stop calling other gamers sociopaths), not at the developer who is developing, or the other players who are playing, the game as they want it to be.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Bubba Freedom
Doomheim
#603 - 2016-11-15 12:52:03 UTC
The only way to make them happy would be to lock safety green in high sec. Not going to happen.. Personally i rotate where i'm at and suck royally at pvp. Still i have been known to attempt it from time to time
Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
#604 - 2016-11-15 14:40:11 UTC
Ilany wrote:
...maybe they should change the name to SIS - Sociopaths in Space - at least we'd all be clear on their intent.



Now there's an idea! Big smile
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#605 - 2016-11-15 21:20:46 UTC
Ilany wrote:
So the mechanics might not have changed, but attitudes have. If that's what CCP really want then maybe they should change the name to SIS - Sociopaths in Space - at least we'd all be clear on their intent.


Well, Incompetent Ilany, have you read any of the lore articles. Yes, Sociopaths in Space would not be too far off. Roll

Like this one.


"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Kitsune Rei
Tastes Like Purple
#606 - 2016-11-15 21:26:05 UTC
All I can say to this entire thread is, "LOL".
Selene Dukat
Hideaway Hunters
The Hideaway.
#607 - 2016-11-15 21:31:14 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
Nice attitude Jagd. This is why this game's community has such a horrible (and well-deserved) reputation.


It doesn't have a horrible reputation. Just the opposite in fact.

It has the reputation of being one of the most engaged, active, collaborative communities in existence. It ALSO has a reputation for staunchly defending the things that make EVE unique from people who start advocating that 10+ years of game tradition be tossed out the window in favor of making EVE more like every other game out there.

Eve is harsh. It's an anarchist free for all with very few places where there are enforced rules and even in those places those rules can be broken - for a price.

That's the game. And the community doesn't react well to people coming in and trying to change that, especially when those changes make the game feel less unique.

There are plenty of places to go to have more secure, safer, less dangerous gameplay - like literally EVERY OTHER GAME OUT THERE.

Oh and by the way, I speak as a low skill player who has gotten my ass handed to me over and over and over again by pirates, thieves and brigands. The harshness and consequences of EVE are what make it difficult - but also great in a way that no other game is.
Selene Dukat
Hideaway Hunters
The Hideaway.
#608 - 2016-11-15 21:39:09 UTC
Quote:


Maybe its the fact that

  • Concurrent Play numbers keep falling
  • Huge numbers of PvE players have left the game
  • CCP Revenues are down year after year
  • CCP revenues only look reasonable after losing half their staff
  • There are a huge number of space games now compared to the past




So guess what? None of that is true.

I've had the fortune to come and and out of the Eve world all the way since 2004. And you know what? Concurrent players have stayed about the same, with some mild eb and flow, that entire time.

"Huge" number of plays have always left the game. And come back. And leave. And come back. This is not a crisis.

CCP revenues - I think you just threw this one in there because it sounded good. CCP posted 60000000 in profit last year.

CCP losing half their staff? - what are you even talking about? CCP currently employs something like 330 people.
Kitsune Rei
Tastes Like Purple
#609 - 2016-11-15 21:41:07 UTC
Xander Jade wrote:

ok, so take the aspect of governments, if you go outside, and torch a car in front of police, and get away, but they know who you are, they start impounding your stuff .. you flee the country so you won't be caught ... that is a consequence ... in eve you have no consequence because there is low to no standard, I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying there needs to be a consequence. it needs to be more difficult, not something that a day one noob toon can do, .. if i was an empire that owned systems with gates i would make it so i could stop people i did not like ... criminals ... from comping within my borders, the tech is there but unused,


Why do you feel entitled to tell a day one noob what they can and can't do? The draw of this game is that you can make an impact on day one. You seem to prefer they what? Pay their dues? Know their role? That seems a bit elitist to me.
Keno Skir
#610 - 2016-11-15 21:44:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
Galaxy Duck wrote:
Ilany wrote:
...maybe they should change the name to SIS - Sociopaths in Space - at least we'd all be clear on their intent.



Now there's an idea! Big smile


Yeah definitely, also anyone who has a fight on Tekken is also a dangerous criminal.

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
Kitsune Rei
Tastes Like Purple
#611 - 2016-11-15 21:46:02 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
If they continue down the same path as the last 5 years they have 3 years tops.


"EVE is dying"
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#612 - 2016-11-15 22:45:01 UTC
Kitsune Rei wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
If they continue down the same path as the last 5 years they have 3 years tops.


"EVE is dying"
Despite being a shambling corpse according to some, it lives on like the obnoxious uncle that nobody likes, just to aggravate the naysayers.

Added the obligatory graph for you P

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Ilany
Nightingale Enterprises
#613 - 2016-11-15 23:31:22 UTC
Selene Dukat wrote:
So guess what? None of that is true. I've had the fortune to come and and out of the Eve world all the way since 2004. And you know what? Concurrent players have stayed about the same, with some mild eb and flow, that entire time.

Shocked The current max PCU is about 30k. In 2004 we would have celebrated getting over 30k online... but that level wasn't reached until 2006. It rose to over 60k in 2013 and has dropped back to 30k since. That's not "mild ebb and flow" by any reasonable measure.

Teckos Pech wrote:
And incompetent at reading comprehension too it looks like. Might want to go re-read that description of the game. Note it is player driven--i.e. you cannot exempt yourself from interacting with other players. This is not a game like Homeworld that had a play alone option. It is a game where your only option is where players can interact with you and not necessarily in friendly and helpful ways...although that is also not precluded either. So yes, you do not have the option of playing the way you want to play if that entails not interacting at all with other players.

Hush. I don't think you're in a position to talk about reading comprehension. No one said anything about not interacting. Try your strawman arguments somewhere else.

Black Pedro wrote:
Ilany wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
...This makes sense of course because that is the whole point of the game.
It doesn't look like CCP want to publicise their game in narrow way that some contributors to this thread seem to espouse - they have created options so everyone has choice, but some players seem to want to constrain that choice and force everyone to play the game in a way that they approve of... one which isn't actually listed in that chart, but seems to be a cross between suicide ganking and griefing.


No one is "forcing" anyone to play the game a certain way.


If you'd read that properly you'd have seen that I said "seem to want to constrain that choice and force..." - this thread being evidence enough of that. The fact that it exists is evidence that they're not succeeding in actually forcing people to change or else no-one would be complaining.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#614 - 2016-11-15 23:37:09 UTC
Selene Dukat wrote:
Quote:


Maybe its the fact that

  • Concurrent Play numbers keep falling
  • Huge numbers of PvE players have left the game
  • CCP Revenues are down year after year
  • CCP revenues only look reasonable after losing half their staff
  • There are a huge number of space games now compared to the past




So guess what? None of that is true.

I've had the fortune to come and and out of the Eve world all the way since 2004. And you know what? Concurrent players have stayed about the same, with some mild eb and flow, that entire time.

"Huge" number of plays have always left the game. And come back. And leave. And come back. This is not a crisis.

CCP revenues - I think you just threw this one in there because it sounded good. CCP posted 60000000 in profit last year.

CCP losing half their staff? - what are you even talking about? CCP currently employs something like 330 people.

As you are so great at financial statements. Here is a simple question for you.

If I bought a plex in 2010 and its still in my cargo hold, where is that displayed on a balance sheet?

Also not exactly what I would call staying about the same

And CCP posted a 20.7m profit last year while this is up, revenue is down as is the account I mentioned earlier is down. And as I said they have halved their staff compared to CCPs peak.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#615 - 2016-11-16 06:31:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Ilany wrote:


If you'd read that properly you'd have seen that I said "seem to want to constrain that choice and force..." - this thread being evidence enough of that. The fact that it exists is evidence that they're not succeeding in actually forcing people to change or else no-one would be complaining.


No player can force you to do anything in the game. What they can do is punish you for making a mistake or not being as good as the other player or just having some dumb bad luck.

That is what CODE. does when they gank freighters. That is what Goons do when they gank freighters. The target has put too much isk value into their cargo hold. That is a mistake. It is no different that blind jumping your carrier to a beacon only to find a saber there and local spiking. Everything working as intended by the game designers.

So, if you want to play stupid...by all means do. But why you are surprised or upset when somebody comes along and takes advantage of your stupid risk taking is something most people are going to have a hard time understanding.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Black Pedro
Mine.
#616 - 2016-11-16 06:51:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Ilany wrote:
If you'd read that properly you'd have seen that I said "seem to want to constrain that choice and force..." - this thread being evidence enough of that. The fact that it exists is evidence that they're not succeeding in actually forcing people to change or else no-one would be complaining.
I see no evidence of anyone attempting to "constrain that choice and force" anyone to play the game in a certain way in this thread, other than perhaps you. The OP asked for immunity to freighter piracy by grinding standings, and then later you called for a massive increase in NPC-enforced restrictions of outlaws with the goal of eliminating a playstyle through tedium. Most of the rest of the posts are just asking to play the game as it is, was designed, and is intended to work without changes or even removal the fundamental PvP sandbox nature of the game.

This thread exists because selfish players exist who feel entitled to play Eve exactly as they want (I want to grind in peace! I want to watch Neflix while I haul! Make the game safe so I can "win" and get resources while I make a sandwich in the other room!) without consideration for the many other players who were attracted to the game and stay because of the competitive nature, the harshness and the grand vision of a virtual universe where losses and decisions matter.

True, both versions of Eve are not compatible. You cannot have a full-time, PvP sandbox and a happy, everyone-is-a-winner grind/buildfest where no one can lose. But CCP built the gritty, virtual universe version of Eve, not the fluffy, FarmVille-in-space and I-can-do-whatever-I-want playground you seem to want Eve to be. I think it only natural that the two views conflict so often of the forums and elsewhere, but there is a clear arbiter in this: CCP. It is CCP's game and they have said it is a nowhere-is-safe, 100% PvP sandbox game and it always has been. If you don't like that, you are literally playing the wrong game.

CCP has made freighter pilots prey items on purpose. By design. They, and everyone else for that matter, are not suppose to be able to secure safety. Again, by design. Other players are not attempting to "constrain that choice and force" players not to be haulers by trying to shoot them, they are just playing the game as intended as a pirate.

We are all each others' content. That is the basic conceit of the game. If the way you want to play the game is incompatible with that, well I am sorry, but agitating to have the game changed so you are safe makes you the one trying to "force" players to play the game in a different way. Do not be surprised if other players object to your 'ideas' or CCP flat-out ignores you like they apparently have for the last 13-years.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Aspira-dora Fuerte
No one can hear you scream
#617 - 2016-11-16 10:16:09 UTC
I am a little unsure about joining this thread as it's my first ever post to a forum of a game I have played since 2008.

If I had to classify myself. then I'm a solo player, a casual player and play in Hi sec. Don't ask me why I just enjoy it. I don't have the dedication others do for corporation play etc. I'm a supplier of minerals and planetary commodities to the "Big guys" I have a good cash base and run 4 characters on two accounts dual boxing level 4 missions and salvaging them with my dedicated character. I maintain my subs but come and go from the game as the mood takes me and when I can be arsed I play quite a bit. I'll still do that despite F2P as i enjoy running my characters together. I even imagine personalities for them (a hangover from RPG days)

I listen to all the arguments and yes i guess players leave because they get ganked regularly in Hi sec but then as it's been said maybe this wasn't their game anyway. You see I like the ganking. How boring would hi sec be without it. if we are honest ganking is good for the game. If I was asked if I wanted anything changing (which i haven't been ;) ) I think the 15 minute penalty is just way to short and the suspect cooldown too however I guess there's a greater risk on the looter as he has to fly to a base with a suspect tag. If only folks would shoot the damn suspects .

Now where was i? Oh yeah ganking is good . I don't do it as I see myself as an honest joe trying to make a living but I damn well learn from them and that's what folks should do rather than whinging. There are basic survival rules in the game that the NPE doesn't teach you , only gankers can really do that. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. If you must idle then be aligned. DO NOT GO AFK. If you know who the gankers and looters are then red dot them in standings then at least you can see them coming. Tank your miners and freighters Make them hard to scramble etc etc etc Above all learn from others read the online guides and learn to play what is for me the most boring and exciting game i ever played. even in Hi sec.

So what was the point of my post. thanks for a great game CCP I think you have it about right for most players. Tweak yes but don't change The new patch works for new players and old alike i think thank you.

BTW ignoring all the content, EvE has to be the most beautiful game graphically i have ever seen.
KuramaKitsune1
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#618 - 2016-11-16 13:06:38 UTC
I'm more casual of a player as well
i logged in and saw taht all my stuff required skills taht are alpha only

so i figured ok, what about my old mining ships?
nope
cant even hop in a retriever on the FTP model
so thats a bummer.

i would have thought that at least the FTP people could at least
sorta
work as an industrial backbone to the alpha players

get those ftp peeps out there crackin those rocks and lowering the prices of materials on the market
Jagd Wilde
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#619 - 2016-11-16 14:23:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jagd Wilde
KuramaKitsune1 wrote:
I'm more casual of a player as well
i logged in and saw taht all my stuff required skills taht are alpha only

so i figured ok, what about my old mining ships?
nope
cant even hop in a retriever on the FTP model
so thats a bummer.

i would have thought that at least the FTP people could at least
sorta
work as an industrial backbone to the alpha players

get those ftp peeps out there crackin those rocks and lowering the prices of materials on the market

Nope nope nope nope

And nope

You cannot give easy access to isk, to non-paying accounts. They don't deserve anything they have not paid for. That is what's best for EVE.

Every alt I own has a red safety, this has brought my friends much laughter.
Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
#620 - 2016-11-16 14:32:42 UTC
Ilany wrote:
The fact that it[this thread] exists is evidence that they're not succeeding in actually forcing people to change or else no-one would be complaining.


You heard it here first, folks.

The very fact that carebears are whining is proof that there's a problem.

I guess there always has been a problem and always will be, 'cause if there's one thing I know, it's that the whine of carebears is eternal.