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Wormholle and claim

Author
CeNedra
Blood Angels Company
#1 - 2012-01-18 17:17:11 UTC
Hi,

I'm sorry for my English.
I think the coming changes wormhole, the claim and the possibility of opening should be created.
the claim should be able to give us as owning a nullsec with a system upgrade that improves the management of resources and npc.The possibility of mounting an outpost and blocking the system against possible intrusion of caps.
The opening of cyno wormhole between two systems known or neighbor should be possible also, under certain conditions. know the two systems and is connected between the supply eux.pour this would be a great advance.
aAnd then a final point, why can we not undermine the systems of moons in the wormholes?

again sorry for my poor English and thank you.
Borg Stoneson
SWARTA
#2 - 2012-01-18 18:05:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Borg Stoneson
I had originaly written a 3-4000 letter response to this, but the forums ate it. I can't be arsed to write it all again so I'll just give a few points.

1. WH moons were stripped bare by either the Sleepers or the Talocan, I can't remember which. It's not that you can't moon mine, it's that there's nothing of value left.

2. Claiming WH systems, good idea, many groups already have a TCU anchored.

3. Making them like nullsec, bad idea

4. Despite no.3 stations/outposts, good idea, infact I think they've become vital. As long as they're destroyable.

5. Infrastructure upgrades, yes, but NOT the same as in nullsec, if anything I think they should be deliberatly underpowered and have an element of randomness. Any upgrades like this need to be done very carefully.

6. Cynos, NO, no and nope. However I think there is room for a WH stabilisation structure, many WH'ers will disagree with me on this though and they may be right.
CeNedra
Blood Angels Company
#3 - 2012-01-18 19:39:36 UTC
Quote:
Infrastructure upgrades, yes, but NOT the same as in nullsec, if anything I think they should be deliberatly underpowered and have an element of randomness. Any upgrades like this need to be done very carefully.


signatures do not come back quite often and sometimes it's hard to return the structures in place, the idea of ​​the upgrade would be interesting

Quote:
Cynos, NO, no and nope. However I think there is room for a WH stabilisation structure, many WH'ers will disagree with me on this though and they may be right.


I was thinking more like a portal where the black ops jump freighter could only move
Borg Stoneson
SWARTA
#4 - 2012-01-18 20:57:21 UTC
Hadn't thought of covert ops cyno's, if not them then perhaps a dedicated WH cyno, all I know is capital ships shouldn't be allowed to use it.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#5 - 2012-01-18 21:19:00 UTC
Didn't CCP clearly state somewhere that they never intended for Wormhole space to be settled by anyone... and that they wanted to keep it that way so "nomadic players" had a place they could go to and/or enjoy... and that in order to encourage players not to settle certain areas they changed the spawn rates of the anomalies... so that if they were "overharvested" they would stay "depleted" for a good number of days... ?
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-01-18 21:22:47 UTC
Why would you want to change WH space into null? If you want to do the sov thing, move out into a null system.
Lucjan
Deutzer Freiheit
#7 - 2012-01-18 21:50:41 UTC
I would love to own W-space BUT so will large alliances. And that can't be allowed or you'll end up with the same garbage as in 0.0. Large alliances owning large parts of space without being penalized with significant maintenance leaving nothing for small corporations and lone wolves.

Goons have the right to own that space because of their numbers but some ridiculously small alliances should not.


XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#8 - 2012-01-18 22:11:02 UTC
Oh this stupid idea again, eh?
Borg Stoneson
SWARTA
#9 - 2012-01-19 07:27:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Borg Stoneson
ShahFluffers wrote:
Didn't CCP clearly state somewhere that they never intended for Wormhole space to be settled by anyone... and that they wanted to keep it that way so "nomadic players" had a place they could go to and/or enjoy... and that in order to encourage players not to settle certain areas they changed the spawn rates of the anomalies... so that if they were "overharvested" they would stay "depleted" for a good number of days... ?

That was the original plan, it's the main reason the moons have no resources and there are no ice fields, supposidly to make the logistics too hard and the ISK return too low for people to stay for any length of time. The playerbase that interacted with WH's said **** that and went ahead with it anyway. Now we're a thriving ingame culture of madness, probes, paranoia and directional scans.

Lucjan, you say that if you could claim some sort of sov in null then the nullsec alliances would dive all over it. Well, there's no moon mining in WH's so there's none of that yummy technetium 0.0 seems to revolve around, owning the system confers no fixed return and there's nothing in the mechanics to stop a powerfull entity "renting" a WH system to a less powerfull atm (Starbridge did a lot of this from what I've heard). So, if WH's had sov just how many nullsec alliances would make a huge rush into it, claim the sov and then keep a large force in every single system they claim in order to defend it? My guess would be not that many, not when those pilots would be far more usefull on the frontlines fighting over something that will give them a guaranteed income. And of the groups that would move in, what's stopping them from doing it right now?

The WH sov debate is about 2 things
1. We live in the system, it's our system, we want our name on it. Yes even though that's a bad thing, if you don't want your name to show up as soon as someone jumps in, don't claim sov when it comes around, nothing forcing you to.
2. We want to be able to invest in our systems, there's no concord in WH space, no NPC empire, no government save for ourselves. If we have the ISK we should be able to build whatever we like and can afford* we want places to dock, we want places with private hangers, hell I can see a place for an in-system market.
We don't want the infinite site generators of nullsec but we wouldn't say no to something that increases the site spawn rate, even if only by a little bit. If we're willing to pay for these things then we should be able to, if we put them up then our neighburs should be able to try and tear them down if they want to. We've made these systems our home, a number of people have lived in them for years now and only leave to buy skillbooks or if they get podded. We want to take it further, the potential of what WH's have to offer and can bring to the game has just been scratched but we've reached the limit of what can be done via the game mechanics.

In short, we don't want WH's to be nullsec, we want WH's to be WH's. We don't want more nullsec, we want something that can stand up alongside nullsec as a (much more) viable end goal for corporations and alliances. Keep your instant ISK payout, keep your moongoo, keep your +5/10% ore and icebelts, we don't need them, we never have. But we do need something more to aim for, we need to have something we can work towards and build.
Oh and Sleeper capitals. Think of the ribbons....
And more Tech3.

*except supercaps, that would unbalance it too much. Then again getting all the parts for a super into a WH would be a ******* pain so perhaps there is room.
CeNedra
Blood Angels Company
#10 - 2012-01-19 16:23:47 UTC
Hi,

I better understand this sentence and you have not saved, I have one hour to translate :p

Quote:
I had originaly written a 3-4000 letter response to this, but the forums ate it. I can't be arsed to write it all again so I'll just give a few points.


You have described very well the back of my mind, I think the opening of the portal through black ops for the transportation of T2 ump freighter or carrier would be a plus for us.if you have to go through the neighboring systems and we could protect our home with cyno jammer.could impose a limit on black ops portal to one jf.
The problem is the capacity of the jf which the egg would not accept the construction of the outpost and upgrade the system.
Borg Stoneson
SWARTA
#11 - 2012-01-20 21:22:56 UTC
CeNedra wrote:
Hi,

The problem is the capacity of the jf which the egg would not accept the construction of the outpost and upgrade the system.


I was thinking of a new egg for WH's (though I don't see a reason why it can't be used in null too) that deploys a smaller lower hp station than the ones currently in nullsec, small enough for an a cargo expanded Orca to move around, but perhaps requiring a lot of additional resources (maybe some WH salvage? It piles up) once it's been anchored so that it's not too easy.
I'm thinking 10-15bil ISK for the egg.

The other solution is to make regular station eggs able to be produced at a POS. This would mean that not only does the owning group have to aquire all the BPC's and materials themselves (PI woo!) but they would also need a freighter inside the WH to move it into position. C5-6 dwellers can just fly one in, C1-4 dwellers have to go an extra step and construct one inside the WH.
CeNedra
Blood Angels Company
#12 - 2012-01-20 23:09:50 UTC
Hi,

I thought of your second solution for the outpost which also made possible the production hub and other components of sovereignty.
I think you'll scream, I would also like it in place ccp modules to scan only for the wormhole, so that we prevent intrusion.
Borg Stoneson
SWARTA
#13 - 2012-01-21 12:22:25 UTC
(scream!)
hmm, no I can't see dedicated WH scanning modules being a good idea. Maybe something that just tells you how many WH's are in the system (and within range) at a given time and not where they are, but even that is overpowered imo.

The constant threat of a fleet of death coming out of nowhere while not pleasent is part of what makes WH's so fun and interesting, infact it's actually already possible to keep an eye out for new WHs while doing sites using a simple combat scan probe. Ignore everything in the system then do an occasional scan at max range and it'll pick up any new sigs when they spawn.
Between the new corporate bookmarks and the fact that hopefully you'll be running any sites that spawn faster than they can respawn it's actually pretty easy to locate and scan down a rogue WH in the home system, the only problem is how well defended it might be and a scanning module isn't going to help there.

The only use for it I can see is for trying to find ways to K-space, I have to admit it would have made it much easier to find the way through the 40+ sig system we had yesterday. But the effort required to scan down and go anywhere is part of what keeps WH's a distant oasis of weirdness to the rest of EVE, take that away and we'll be overrun!
CeNedra
Blood Angels Company
#14 - 2012-01-21 22:53:26 UTC
hi

I do not want a module to scan for me but to warn of an intrusion, by setting the module possible to our standing in this space must be claim.
my reflection revolves around the claim, because I also want caps.Les in to build the super super caps are limited to 0.0.
Chaotic Mind
Aurora Coalition
#15 - 2012-01-21 23:55:29 UTC
Aren't WH system supposed to be "hard to live in"?

Ouposts, Claiming and stuff would make it a confortable home... I doubt that was the plan
Borg Stoneson
SWARTA
#16 - 2012-01-22 08:06:35 UTC
Chaotic Mind wrote:
Aren't WH system supposed to be "hard to live in"?

Ouposts, Claiming and stuff would make it a confortable home... I doubt that was the plan

WH's haven't been that hard to live in for quite a while now.

Claiming the system wouldn't make it any easier, at its most basic level it would just put your corp/alliance name in the sovereignty box, more asthetic than anything practical. Idealy though it would tie in to new mechanics, like allowing the holders to build an outposts, some upgrades etc.
Outposts/upgrades are something for the more advanced WH dwellers, those who have long since overcome the challanges of living 2,147,483,647 jumps from Jita. Those who are capable of paying several billion ISK for something that is essentialy a giant pinyata.

Making it comfortable, yeah I suppose so, but if we're willing to spend the ISK on the infrastructure to make our homes more comfortable why shouldn't we? An outpost is more usefull for corperate and asset management than anything else, it doesn't make the sites easier, it doesn't make finding sites easier, it doesn't make finding k-space connects to sell loot in easier. And it does act as a pinyata (as long as it's destroyable), there's been talk lately of how we need stabilisation modules so that people can destroy the "invulnerable fortress systems" that have apparently become a huge problem all of a sudden. Well I say the problem is that unless you really really really want that particular WH or to cause the target corp/alliance pain it's just not worth the effort required to sneak the required ship assets into the system. Anything that's contained at the POS's can easily be self destructed or left in a can to decay by anyone with roles to deny both loot and killmails, an attacking force will be lucky to get a few POS modules, certainly not enough to warrent the force required (a force that's also no longer defending their own assets). An outpost on the other hand? All you need is for a few people to be on a break from the game and any ships, loot, etc they have in their hangers becomes a very realy bounty, people try to self destruct their ships? Blow them up on the undock. They just trash things? Well you can't stop them from doing that, but they wouldn't get the insurance ISK either (not much I know, but it's something). If it's you really think it's too much luxury, **** it, just make the outposts need refueling. We wouldn't mind.


@CeNedra, ah ok I get what your saying. Still, I think an intrusion detection system might make it too safe. I suppose it could be done but it would have to only be able to detect intrusions for a short range around it (12AU?), so it has a use but it's not infallible.
It could also/instead have a delay of a few min's, so that hostile forces have time to move in and potentialy cause havoc if they're are organised enough. It could also be something they can scan down and maybe hack (use for a codebreaker module in pvp woo!) to disable for a time, no warning when this happens so the WH owners will need to check on it every so often.
CeNedra
Blood Angels Company
#17 - 2012-01-22 16:23:13 UTC
Hi,

Quote:
Aren't WH system supposed to be "hard to live in"?

Ouposts, Claiming and stuff would make it a confortable home... I doubt that was the plan


tries to refuel four large POS with a vortex that allows only a occator. There is no belt, of ice, the moon, so no farming, our NPC are intelligent and harder to kill and have no bounty. The hostility may occur at any time without anyone knowing about it. The signatures fall very quickly and can be left without nothing to put in their mouths for our planets semaines.Seul keep us alive.
We just want to improve our home and not compete with your ..... of nullsec.
Jack Tronic
borkedLabs
#18 - 2012-01-22 17:52:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Tronic
Borg Stoneson wrote:
CeNedra wrote:
Hi,

The problem is the capacity of the jf which the egg would not accept the construction of the outpost and upgrade the system.


I was thinking of a new egg for WH's (though I don't see a reason why it can't be used in null too) that deploys a smaller lower hp station than the ones currently in nullsec, small enough for an a cargo expanded Orca to move around, but perhaps requiring a lot of additional resources (maybe some WH salvage? It piles up) once it's been anchored so that it's not too easy.
I'm thinking 10-15bil ISK for the egg.

The other solution is to make regular station eggs able to be produced at a POS. This would mean that not only does the owning group have to aquire all the BPC's and materials themselves (PI woo!) but they would also need a freighter inside the WH to move it into position. C5-6 dwellers can just fly one in, C1-4 dwellers have to go an extra step and construct one inside the WH.


1. Making stations in wspace would contribute to breaking wspace unless they are completely destroyable
2. A destroyable station will get reinforced and popped very very quickly by all the large groups
3. Stop trying to turn wspace into null.

CCP's goal stated everywhere is to disallow wspace colonization ala null and to foster the unknown. They are working on slowly iterating on wspace again by removing the API stats and other things they haven't mentioned. There were even talks of sleeper NPCs attacking POSes.
CeNedra
Blood Angels Company
#19 - 2012-01-23 09:12:32 UTC
Hi,

Quote:
CCP's goal stated everywhere is to disallow wspace colonization ala null and to foster the unknown. They are working on slowly iterating on wspace again by removing the API stats and other things they haven't mentioned. There were even talks of sleeper NPCs attacking POSes.


This I expect to see, so far no attack has npc structure then the player or extend sector nullsec NPC.
CCP wants to increase the storage capacity of POS, so it allows part of the settlement of the WH and if I remember correctly the dev blog, the claim of WH was already mentioned.

any way my stats API I do not care
Timbuck V
Breizh Punisher's
#20 - 2012-01-23 10:14:12 UTC
Jack Tronic wrote:

3. Stop trying to turn wspace into null.


There is no chances to turn a Wspace in nullsec even with an outpost/station and or sov claiming ...
There always be lots of ( sometimes )dangerous hauling for the stuff needed....
because unlike Nullsec in whspace there's no belts ice/ore, no moon mining, no market , and no "Local",no "friendly " NPC, so don't tell me that a bigger Pos or an outpost/station would transform a Whspace in a 0.0

The end of the Api (concerning the jump in the Wh ) doesn't change anything, who cares if there was 20/40 jumps within the last 48 hours or ten minute, we are already scannning local every few minutes or bubbling the entrance or cloacking near it ... and we still can get podded........

Anyway here's some quotes from the last CSM about the future ( or not ) of Wh


  • The CSM pointed out that living out of a POS is very difficult, due to the weak security system and
  • lack of real personal storage space. CCP is hoping that several small changes can be made to POS
    mechanics, and that at some point in the future the POS system will be re-written/re-design..

    CCP and some of the CSM members brought up the difficultly of invading a large established group
    in a wormhole as one of the biggest current issues with w-space...

    The idea was raised of having some
    sort of ship or module that would allow more mass to pass through a wormhole. One of the CSM
    members explained the defensive mechanic of leaving your static wormhole at critical mass and
    collapsing it when invaders were close to entering...

    CCP was worried that the introduction of some sort of wormhole stabilizer would remove
    some of the everyday safety that people have grown to expect....

    One CSM stated that "If you build a fortress in there it is impossible to invade". The mechanics of
    infiltrating capital ships into wormholes was discussed, as well as the "chain-collapsing" mechanics...

    Two Step's list of smaller wormhole fixes was presented to CCP, most of which are generally
    applicable to POS life. Some small scanning tweaks were also mentioned. It was also requested to
    allow Rorqual clone vats to be usable to allow players to switch clones (and implants) within the
    wormhole

    There was some final discussion about making sleeper (and Incursion) spawns more variable, which
    CCP agreed would be a good thing. Some CSMs suggested that Sleepers should attack POSes, and/or
    pod people...




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