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XL missiles
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Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#1 - 2016-11-13 19:18:40 UTC
XL missiles are once again, the laughing stock of capital weapons.

Even with damage application mods fitted to a Phoenix or leviathan, if their CAPITAL target is moving more than 26m/s, the missiles fail to hit for full damage. this is before you take into count the explosion radius of the missiles too.


you standard carrier without prop mod, can shed 70% of xl missile damage just by aligning. then its signature will then also reduce the damage by another 10 to 30%

resulting in XL missiles being a joke.

Even ignoring their worse than bad damage application. they are minimum of 25% behind the other races for dps.

the Moros with LR ammo can match the damage of the Phoenix with SR ammo, and vastly out damages it with SR ammo.


So please For all XL missiles

Either increase the base damage by 25%, or reduce the re-fire by 15%

Decrease the Explosion radius by 20%
Increase the explosion velocity by 40%

This will bring the Phoenix and Leviathan closer to other Dreads / Titans for dps and application and make them useful again.
MatthewMN
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#2 - 2016-11-13 20:30:03 UTC
+1 Make Phoenix Great Again!
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#3 - 2016-11-14 00:20:22 UTC
This is not just a problem with XL missiles but most classes of missile.

This is because they set missiles to need Painters & Webs to get 100% application on an unfitted hull of the correct target size.
When they should get 100% application before painters & webs on an unfitted hull of the correct size.

This is what needs fixing, they will probably need to increase the hidden attribute of DRF on missiles to balance it so outside their target class they apply worse than they do currently, but it's where all the base problems start from.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#4 - 2016-11-14 00:24:50 UTC
MatthewMN wrote:
+1 Make Phoenix Great Again!


Not an empty quote.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Furion118
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2016-11-14 00:31:33 UTC
Really needs to be looked at.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2016-11-14 00:31:54 UTC
To further compound the problem, XL cruise and XL torpedos are tied to 2 separate skills, meaning that they take twice as long to train for than capital hybrids, capital projectiles, or capital lasers.

It's long overdue that the incredibly shortcomings of gimped XL missiles are fixed, so that they are at least on par with the other 3 capital turret systems
Unit562
Blood Tide
#7 - 2016-11-14 00:46:08 UTC
There is so much wrong with XL missile systems.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#8 - 2016-11-14 01:57:26 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
This is not just a problem with XL missiles but most classes of missile.

This is because they set missiles to need Painters & Webs to get 100% application on an unfitted hull of the correct target size.
When they should get 100% application before painters & webs on an unfitted hull of the correct size.

This is what needs fixing, they will probably need to increase the hidden attribute of DRF on missiles to balance it so outside their target class they apply worse than they do currently, but it's where all the base problems start from.



that is pretty summary of issue on missile overall
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#9 - 2016-11-14 03:33:47 UTC
came to expect some reference to the lords servant phoenix (big in some circles 1 or years ago iirc)as a counter statement and not seeing one. Did xl's change again or is this too niche to run for general use.

Personally I was and still am in the just make this a gun boat crowd. Did wonders for nag overnight. Almost literally....as I recall this was mentioned short fused on pending patch note.

In 2 days this will be the patch

yada yadda,
blah blah
nag will have launchers removed, gun bonus adjusted
yada yada about some really minor change..


huh...where'd the guns come from? And uncharacteristic of eve player base...many did not complain about this. New feature not sisi tested extensively, hell they wouldn't even return missile sp's.....and yet many users were genuinely happy. Magic could strike twice lol....
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#10 - 2016-11-14 05:28:49 UTC  |  Edited by: unidenify
Zan Shiro wrote:
came to expect some reference to the lords servant phoenix (big in some circles 1 or years ago iirc)as a counter statement and not seeing one. Did xl's change again or is this too niche to run for general use.


when CCP bring HAW/RTML for capital ship, they nerf all existing XL weapon's damage application

so, Faction XL Torp went from 3,000m to 10,000m explosive radius

so, it is issue when you try to do Poco bash wtih phoenix

personal, I think it is entire dumb that Poco can reduce phoenix's rage XL torp into almost 33% of its original damage sheer due to have 4.5k m sig rad

there are a issue with POS, but see that they will be gone, they are irrelevant
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2016-11-14 07:19:40 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
came to expect some reference to the lords servant phoenix (big in some circles 1 or years ago iirc)as a counter statement and not seeing one. Did xl's change again or is this too niche to run for general use.

Personally I was and still am in the just make this a gun boat crowd. Did wonders for nag overnight. Almost literally....as I recall this was mentioned short fused on pending patch note.

In 2 days this will be the patch

yada yadda,
blah blah
nag will have launchers removed, gun bonus adjusted
yada yada about some really minor change..


huh...where'd the guns come from? And uncharacteristic of eve player base...many did not complain about this. New feature not sisi tested extensively, hell they wouldn't even return missile sp's.....and yet many users were genuinely happy. Magic could strike twice lol....



Different situation entirely. Nag was two guns one launcher, and they'd been steadily killing off the awful split weapon systems of old. Phoneix has always been a missile boat.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#12 - 2016-11-14 08:26:01 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
[quote=Zan Shiro]


Different situation entirely. Nag was two guns one launcher, and they'd been steadily killing off the awful split weapon systems of old. Phoneix has always been a missile boat.


Nag used to be 2 of each.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#13 - 2016-11-14 10:40:19 UTC
Ncc 1709 wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
[quote=Zan Shiro]


Different situation entirely. Nag was two guns one launcher, and they'd been steadily killing off the awful split weapon systems of old. Phoneix has always been a missile boat.


Nag used to be 2 of each.



Yep. Half of its damage in theory.

CCP opted to go all guns, they could have opted to go all missiles just as they did in quite a few rebalance passes minmatar side. Skills in place already for pilots at the time, could have gone either way.


They wisely chose guns...probably because option B would have meant 2 dreads that would have sucked ass at the time.


As phoenix has always been a pita for ccp to do anything with guns could just make life easier. Seems they played with the missile stats again. And have issues...again. The right recipe of explosion stats seems to evade them here to keep balance with them always hitting. Get a weapon system that can miss...so that it can hit for something when it does. Much better choice imo.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2016-11-14 19:13:22 UTC
Ncc 1709 wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
[quote=Zan Shiro]


Different situation entirely. Nag was two guns one launcher, and they'd been steadily killing off the awful split weapon systems of old. Phoneix has always been a missile boat.


Nag used to be 2 of each.


my bad, the old fits I have saved have broken over time. Either way, it was terrible, same as every other split weapon boat.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#15 - 2016-11-14 19:34:24 UTC
Unit562 wrote:
There is so much wrong with XL missile systems.


That doesn't even get into the cost of the BPO's needed to invent T2 XL missiles - many times more expensive than the XL turret charges.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#16 - 2016-11-14 19:36:42 UTC
Ncc 1709 wrote:
XL missiles are once again, the laughing stock of capital weapons.

Even with damage application mods fitted to a Phoenix or leviathan, if their CAPITAL target is moving more than 26m/s, the missiles fail to hit for full damage. this is before you take into count the explosion radius of the missiles too.


you standard carrier without prop mod, can shed 70% of xl missile damage just by aligning. then its signature will then also reduce the damage by another 10 to 30%

resulting in XL missiles being a joke.

Even ignoring their worse than bad damage application. they are minimum of 25% behind the other races for dps.

the Moros with LR ammo can match the damage of the Phoenix with SR ammo, and vastly out damages it with SR ammo.


So please For all XL missiles

Either increase the base damage by 25%, or reduce the re-fire by 15%

Decrease the Explosion radius by 20%
Increase the explosion velocity by 40%

This will bring the Phoenix and Leviathan closer to other Dreads / Titans for dps and application and make them useful again.


I agree.

They finally have it so that the Revelation is not terrible again (thanks to Amarr's one saving grace, Scorch). Now they just need to fix the XL missiles so the Phoenix is a more viable option.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#17 - 2016-11-15 11:34:24 UTC
I would love it if we could get a devs opinion on this :)
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#18 - 2016-11-15 14:18:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Ncc 1709 wrote:
I would love it if we could get a devs opinion on this :)


Just google the old threads in the archived board really lol. They would rehash the same from there. \

Issue with XL was/is doing again it shows the a weakness of how missile damage is worked out. Issues is, imo, it doesn't scale well. It chokes on the higher values. We start knocking on the door with torps and cruise....xl kicks that door wide open.

CCP said You thought needing paint and rigor to shoot a structure in a level 4 for any damage was kind of idiotic....wait till you see what we do for follow up to that in caps.

Its, imo, the heavy reliance on sig radius. Contentious at times but workable on the sub cap weapons.


XL's scaling issue is if used as design...its shooting really huge frigging things. Case of its role as a structure shooter.....huge frigging things not even moving. So you go wtf is this?


Cruise raven not blapping cruisers at 100kms....I'll bite that line for sig based damage. XL cruise phoenix shooting a huge structure not moving and its sig tanking like a champ....something is awry. Same with a cap speed tanking as well. But but the moros can miss a cap. If fit like ass and no web/paint support, yes. Also not even applicable when dreads in siege and not moving. Now its the moros shooting yet another stationary target full force.

Imo, and been one for a while, its the missile calc needs a redo. Missile guidance was not the savior CCP or some people thought it would be. Personally I think we are worse off for it.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2016-11-15 18:18:54 UTC
Being small should only help you avoid some of the damage when moving.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#20 - 2016-11-15 23:14:57 UTC
I would like to keep this alive so dev's have a chance to see it.
for people who think 40% is a large boost. its 40% of 40 which becomes 56. still not enough to hit most moving ships. but it helps
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