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[November] Rorqual Changes

First post First post First post
Author
Olmeca Gold
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#421 - 2016-11-05 03:37:34 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Olmeca Gold wrote:


I say organized people will never lose a Rorqual. For example there will never be a Rorq loss in Delve.


You must not know Goons very well.

I admit that they are very well-organized, but they also have their window-lickers who will find a way to lose an invulnerable ship.


The only group that has killed ratting carriers in their space in past 5 months is us (Bombers Bar). So I know them very well, and they are the most organized group when it comes to protecting their ratters.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

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Olmeca Gold
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#422 - 2016-11-05 04:00:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Olmeca Gold
TigerXtrm wrote:
Olmeca Gold wrote:
I say organized people will never lose a Rorqual. For example there will never be a Rorq loss in Delve.


If you know null so well you should know one of our dumbfuck members is probably the first to lose a Rorqual Lol (it might even be me, knock on wood).

With the current state of affairs (on SISI) only fairly large (and noticeable) fleets will be capable of taking down a Rorqual (not including hot drops). Any decent Rorq pilot will see them coming 10 jumps away and prepare accordingly. However a lot can happen in the (worst case) 5 minutes it takes for an indy core to wind down. Should the fleet reach the Rorq first and tackle it, a decent fit Rorq will be able to hold out for roughly 2 to 10 minutes before hitting the PANIC button is even needed depending on how hard the fleet is hitting. Lighting a cyno under those circumstances would bring in reinforcements, but would also force the Rorq to stay on the field for another 10 minutes, only 7,5 of which are covered by the PANIC button at most.

Hitting the PANIC button would be the very very very last thing I would do because it doesn't prevent you from being pointed and it prevents you from helping in the defense.

Ultimately I think we'll see plenty of Rorquals die, even in deep 0.0 where reinforcements are on standby.



Well it looks funny how your paragraph progresses but your conclusion is totally unexpected. When you guys were in Deklein we relied on not dropping in your staging titan range. Delve range covers much more. II have tested your defenses a little bit and it looks like you have sufficient supers / titans and fatigue to drop at any given time to deter any battleship sized fleet or smaller. We get those who were not smart enough to light a cyno.

Now with the initial tank, plus 7 minutes (after which the Rorq will recharge a lot of shield too) even those people who didn't fit a cyno have a guarantee to bring in a cyno ship and cyno up. They can even afk from their Rorqual toon if need be. Cyno inhibitors will not change that fact too as the ship can just cyno offgrid and the supers can just warp in as there is enough time.

At this rate frankly I would be very very surprised if we ever kill a Rorq in your space, and even if we did the risk that you take to mine that much won't be at the level of what it needs to be.

You have your local, you have your intel network, your ship is tanky/dpsy enough to not die to a solo/duo blops group, and you still want people from 15 jumps to be able to come save you when tackled if it comes to that. That's just greedy imho.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.

Jonathon Silence
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#423 - 2016-11-05 04:59:06 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Jonathon Silence wrote:
I have been trying out things on the test server and have noticed something which has me a bit worried.

5 Run Excavator Mining Drone BPC's are available from the ORE LP store. Generally when this kind of thing happens BPO's for the item will not be seeded.

That has me very concerned. The 'Excavator' type drones are designed for the Rorqual, they are how it mines. Having this function of the Rorqual 'nerfed' so that they can only be got by running ORE missions (or running Incursions and converting LP).

Can CCP please confirm if this is going to the ONLY way to get Excavator Drones (via the LP BPC's) or if this is an additional way of getting them if you do not want a BPO?

If this is an additional way then all good and PLEASE ignore the rest of the Post, but this this is the only way then that is, well to put it mildly, B******t. To force players to run out to 0.0 (ORE space) to get a 5 Run BPC for a required Piece of equipment is not on.

You do not force Carrier pilots to run missions to get BPC's for fighters and for the fighters to be racially limited, why are you doing this for the Rorqual?

The risk reward of having a Rorqual in the belt is based round the amount they can mine, if they can not mine this amount except by running missions/incursions to get a special piece of equipment then the risk/reward calculation fails, and people will use Orca's instead as the risk/reward from the boosts still works out.


You mean like how the BPO for every ORE ship ever is only initially available in Outer Ring? Yeah that's such a big problem in the availability of mining barges Roll


I would have no problem if it was the BPO in ORE space, that is fine.

What I am saying is it looks like there will be NO BPO's only BPC's from the ORE LP store.
Jonathon Silence
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#424 - 2016-11-05 05:01:22 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Jonathon Silence wrote:
I have been trying out things on the test server and have noticed something which has me a bit worried.

5 Run Excavator Mining Drone BPC's are available from the ORE LP store. Generally when this kind of thing happens BPO's for the item will not be seeded.

That has me very concerned. The 'Excavator' type drones are designed for the Rorqual, they are how it mines. Having this function of the Rorqual 'nerfed' so that they can only be got by running ORE missions (or running Incursions and converting LP).

Can CCP please confirm if this is going to the ONLY way to get Excavator Drones (via the LP BPC's) or if this is an additional way of getting them if you do not want a BPO?

If this is an additional way then all good and PLEASE ignore the rest of the Post, but this this is the only way then that is, well to put it mildly, B******t. To force players to run out to 0.0 (ORE space) to get a 5 Run BPC for a required Piece of equipment is not on.

You do not force Carrier pilots to run missions to get BPC's for fighters and for the fighters to be racially limited, why are you doing this for the Rorqual?

The risk reward of having a Rorqual in the belt is based round the amount they can mine, if they can not mine this amount except by running missions/incursions to get a special piece of equipment then the risk/reward calculation fails, and people will use Orca's instead as the risk/reward from the boosts still works out.

Buy them from someone who does that sort of thing. I don't see any carrier pilots complaining about having to build their own fighters, because they don't.


I bet carrier Pilots would complain if there was no BPO's for the fighters only BPC's available from the 4 NPC state LP stores in 5 run copies.
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#425 - 2016-11-05 12:28:49 UTC
Olmeca Gold wrote:

You have your local, you have your intel network, your ship is tanky/dpsy enough to not die to a solo/duo blops group, and you still want people from 15 jumps to be able to come save you when tackled if it comes to that. That's just greedy imho.


It's not greedy, it's just good organisation and cooperation. I'm not going to let my multi billion ISK ship die to honor the illusion of a fair fight when there's 10 dudes standing by to jump in and save my ass, and give them something to shoot at in the process. No-one would, including you.

That said, plenty of Rorquals will die in Delve due to utter stupidity and miscommunication. Hunting Rorquals in Delve is going to be like playing on hard difficulty, absolutely. Plenty of other places with easier kills to score. But that's not to say that it's impossible.

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COMMANDER KATMAN
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#426 - 2016-11-07 01:30:31 UTC
Just wanted to post the numbers on the very max u can mine in here:

With Max all Level 5 skills, T2Core, x2 T2 Mining drone rigs & 1x T1... the Very best you can Yield =


8,768m3 per Excavator Drone // 45,024m3 per set of 5 Drones, Per 90 Seconds cycle.

Ice Excavator Drones = 10sec cycle time... So 5 units of ice per 10sec, per set of 5 drones.


If you are mining the right stuff and have level 4-5 mining anoms or better on tap... you can easy pull over 10m per min,

MWD on to mining spot, flash green for a few cycles then move to next spot keeping your drones mining within 0-10km.

Also you can get them up and past 650m/s with 3 drone navs if you wanted.


Thanks

Kat

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Olmeca Gold
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#427 - 2016-11-08 01:10:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Olmeca Gold
TigerXtrm wrote:
Olmeca Gold wrote:

You have your local, you have your intel network, your ship is tanky/dpsy enough to not die to a solo/duo blops group, and you still want people from 15 jumps to be able to come save you when tackled if it comes to that. That's just greedy imho.


It's not greedy, it's just good organisation and cooperation. I'm not going to let my multi billion ISK ship die to honor the illusion of a fair fight when there's 10 dudes standing by to jump in and save my ass, and give them something to shoot at in the process. No-one would, including you.

That said, plenty of Rorquals will die in Delve due to utter stupidity and miscommunication. Hunting Rorquals in Delve is going to be like playing on hard difficulty, absolutely. Plenty of other places with easier kills to score. But that's not to say that it's impossible.



Have you ever checked how many carriers you (Goonswarm Federation) have lost since you moved in Delve? I did. 10. 4 of them died to us (Bombers Bar) in two separate occasions. And all those carriers that were killed didn't have or light a cyno. Imagine giving them a PANIC button. Entire 10 minutes to burn a cyno or a support fleet to the system. Meanwhile there has been at least one or two occasions per month where you smartbombed entire ganking fleets to nonexistence. Other people seems to have given up coming to your space. Given the enormous PvE activity in your space I would say statistically this is already about %100 safe PvE capability. If you lose one carrier a month you will lose Rorquals at an even slower rate. Perhaps once every 6 months? That's not plenty.

PvE in this game is about risk/reward. You are supposed to be taking more risk when you are moving your PvE activity from more secure to less secure space, whilst increasing the reward to be worth it. And the gankers are supposed to be the biggest risk you take, and hotdrop groups are supposed to be the epitome of this risk for their ability to infiltrate behind enemy lines and snatch a kill before help arrives.

You talk about how your ship costs multi billions but you ignore the reward side of it. You are getting 300m/hr mining machines. They make up their cost in 10 hours of activity. A ratting carrier might be 20 hours. Given these rates a healthy risk/reward balance I think is around losing a ship every 70-100 hours of ratting. Given the risk you are supposed to take, 1/10th of your earnings is a fair amount to lose to the risk factors.

Now being from a highly organized alliance I think you are under this illusion that you are somehow entitled to above-described approximately %100 safe ratting statistics just because you are organized, but you are not. Organization should at best improve your statistics greatly. Say maybe a death 150 or 200 hours of PvE. Given hundreds of carrier accounts ratting in Delve and NPC killing stats we see on Dotlan every day, it is safe to say that the stats are nowhere even closely near this balance. And for Rorquals it is even going to be less risk and more reward.

The whole PvE-ganking mechanics of nullsec should be designed with the above mentioned balance factors in mind and tuned until the desired statistics (mine was an example, there can be more talk on these numbers) are reached. The fine tuning might include rethinking local, mobile cyno inhibs, PANIC buttons, and other factors, and definitely increasing reward in less secure space (for which the Rorq changes are appropriate) as well. This is not because I am a ganker and I want more targets. This is because a proper risk/reward balance makes a more meaningful game for all of us. For example, you will now have a huge competitive advantage vs. unorganized, small group Rorquals/miners. You should have some due to your organization needing to be rewarded, but not this much.

PS: I won't even get into the discussion regarding a fair fights. I'm sure you are not new to Eve.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#428 - 2016-11-08 02:01:26 UTC
I didn't realize that Goons had only lost four ratting Carriers in the last five months. That's pretty impressive.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Olmeca Gold
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#429 - 2016-11-08 06:30:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Olmeca Gold
FT Diomedes wrote:
I didn't realize that Goons had only lost four ratting Carriers in the last five months. That's pretty impressive.


EDIT: I just realized you can actually filter zkill to see carrier kills per corp so I checked again. The actual number is 11 since they established in Delve (August). Still very low.

They look like they lost more ratter ISK to NPCs than gankers.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.

Caldari Superiority
State War Academy
Caldari State
#430 - 2016-11-08 21:57:23 UTC
Currently Rorqual on sisi have bugged dps, maximum what i could get with officer ddas, industrial core II and geckos was ~1300 dps.

More over nothing of ewar modifiers seem to work on npcs, they will shoot rorqual's drones regardless of any ewar (even combat drones).
Maybe i'm just bad at testing but i doubt this will be the old carrier afk ratting like some people think.

Unless it is a bug?
Vickers Secretary
Weyland Inc.
#431 - 2016-11-09 11:15:19 UTC
I'm not really sure what to think of these changes.
All of the follwing only if my math is correct:
You can get up to 1,78million m3 per hour and rorqual (assuming perfect skills and no drone travel time).
Even with travel time, can easily get more than a million m3 per hour.
This means, a single player in a single ship can mine his own supercapital in under a day.

This is just madness and has the potential to crash the whole market! Imagine those null miners with 20+ accounts at once in combination with the new engineering complexes - they can easily outproduce the whole highsec with just a bit of coordination and turn the import market into an export market. Mineral prices probably will fall into the abyss.

In the current state, it really looks way tol overpowered to me.
With just a few accounts and rorquals you can build your own citadel empire in a few weeks...
Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues
Hookers N' Blow
#432 - 2016-11-09 16:11:44 UTC
I apologize if this question has been asked.

If you are in a Rorqual, drones deployed, and you hit your panic/invuln modules can your drones still be recalled or are they blocked out by the invulnerability module?

Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues
Hookers N' Blow
#433 - 2016-11-09 21:15:41 UTC
Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues wrote:
I apologize if this question has been asked.

If you are in a Rorqual, drones deployed, and you hit your panic/invuln modules can your drones still be recalled or are they blocked out by the invulnerability module?



It would be nice if you gave them some kind of achilles heel like not being able to pull in their drones while they are invuln.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
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#434 - 2016-11-10 02:08:18 UTC
Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues wrote:
I apologize if this question has been asked.

If you are in a Rorqual, drones deployed, and you hit your panic/invuln modules can your drones still be recalled or are they blocked out by the invulnerability module?




Yes, they can be recalled.

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Cade Windstalker
#435 - 2016-11-10 20:17:39 UTC
Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues wrote:
Eye-Luv-Girls wDaddyIssues wrote:
I apologize if this question has been asked.

If you are in a Rorqual, drones deployed, and you hit your panic/invuln modules can your drones still be recalled or are they blocked out by the invulnerability module?



It would be nice if you gave them some kind of achilles heel like not being able to pull in their drones while they are invuln.


I'm pretty sure the Achilles heel of the Rorqual is "being a mining ship". Lol
Feng Yotosashi
Yamato Inc.
#436 - 2016-11-12 19:22:04 UTC
I bet most people complaining about the P.A.N.I.C button in fact just wanted to say: "I don't want to loose my Rorqual. I want to use it but I don't want to loose it". And I'm saying that because that was the first thought I had while reading this thread.

Took me a lot of time and hard work to get a Rorqual, so personally I wish I had at least a chance of getting away from the belt. That's from my personal point of view (as a solo/micro corp guy) I'd rather it be an escape mechanism.

On the other hand, it sounds good for people who play in medium/large corps/alliances with lots of active players on the system or nearby. In that sense it makes using the Rorqual something that requires everyone to be paying attention, just like PVP and PVE fleets, rather than just having an alt slumbering inside a POS's shield. "OK, lets fire up the Rorqual, everybody stay tunned for possible hotdrops". It definetivelty ain't as "convenient" as before, but it has the potential to generate content.

Thing is, solo/small corp players are also "content". There's a cool thing to a guy able to run of a band of bloodthirsty pirates in a big fat old Rorqual. For those guys, the PANIC button the way it is is simply put useless.

Bottomline about the PANIC button, almost completely useless for me as a solo/small-corp guy, but certainly fun for active groups.

About making the Rorqual an uber-mining ship, I don't know... I kinda like the idea of having the mining output of 5 ships into one, but the risk is so high that I think most people will never do it AND there's the abusive multiboxing thing people pointed out.



"The carp and the cutting board" - 忍者産業

Feng Yotosashi
Yamato Inc.
#437 - 2016-11-12 19:23:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Feng Yotosashi
Sry for double post

"The carp and the cutting board" - 忍者産業

Olmeca Gold
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#438 - 2016-11-13 05:18:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Olmeca Gold
Feng Yotosashi wrote:

Bottomline about the PANIC button, almost completely useless for me as a solo/small-corp guy, but certainly fun for active groups.

About making the Rorqual an uber-mining ship, I don't know... I kinda like the idea of having the mining output of 5 ships into one, but the risk is so high that I think most people will never do it AND there's the abusive multiboxing thing people pointed out




Yeah I wish it was something like a button that instantly teleports you to somewhere random at current system, leaving you unable to move/cloak for some balanced amount of time (20 to 40 seconds perhaps). Then it would rely on the hunters' skill to find/tackle you with combat probes, rather than your corporation's ability to muster numbers at a given time. If your corp can muster a response it does it with a cyno/bridge anyway, like big corps do.

Currently it gives so much unfair competitive advantage to people like NC or Goons, over people like you. Solo Rorq will not be profitable due to losses, but organized Rorq will be profitable to the extent of 30 multiboxing alts per system.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.

Feng Yotosashi
Yamato Inc.
#439 - 2016-11-13 06:15:40 UTC
Olmeca Gold wrote:
Feng Yotosashi wrote:

Bottomline about the PANIC button, almost completely useless for me as a solo/small-corp guy, but certainly fun for active groups.

About making the Rorqual an uber-mining ship, I don't know... I kinda like the idea of having the mining output of 5 ships into one, but the risk is so high that I think most people will never do it AND there's the abusive multiboxing thing people pointed out




Yeah I wish it was something like a button that instantly teleports you to somewhere random at current system, leaving you unable to move/cloak for some balanced amount of time (20 to 40 seconds perhaps). Then it would rely on the hunters' skill to find/tackle you with combat probes, rather than your corporation's ability to muster numbers at a given time.


That's certainly more in line with an escape mechanism concept, but I'm not sure about the "unable to move" part, IDK... Rorqual already takes forever to align – but then again, if the idea is teleporting instantly instead of a "forced warp", it would be fair. About the Rorqual being unable to cloak, it would be totally fair.

In that scenario, gankers/whalers would always bring combat probes (as they actually already do), and they'd just wait for the Rorqual to "teleport" somewhere, scan it down and warp in for the kill. In the meantime, the Rorqual pilot is hammering warp key, spamming friendly channels and praying for his beloved ship. You'd have to take into account the time it takes for a Rorqual to align, warp, the time it takes for a combat probe to lock it and the gankers to arrive or at least point it. Anyway, sounds like fun for both sides.

"The carp and the cutting board" - 忍者産業

Olmeca Gold
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#440 - 2016-11-13 08:09:12 UTC
Feng Yotosashi wrote:
Olmeca Gold wrote:
Feng Yotosashi wrote:

Bottomline about the PANIC button, almost completely useless for me as a solo/small-corp guy, but certainly fun for active groups.

About making the Rorqual an uber-mining ship, I don't know... I kinda like the idea of having the mining output of 5 ships into one, but the risk is so high that I think most people will never do it AND there's the abusive multiboxing thing people pointed out




Yeah I wish it was something like a button that instantly teleports you to somewhere random at current system, leaving you unable to move/cloak for some balanced amount of time (20 to 40 seconds perhaps). Then it would rely on the hunters' skill to find/tackle you with combat probes, rather than your corporation's ability to muster numbers at a given time.


That's certainly more in line with an escape mechanism concept, but I'm not sure about the "unable to move" part, IDK... Rorqual already takes forever to align – but then again, if the idea is teleporting instantly instead of a "forced warp", it would be fair. About the Rorqual being unable to cloak, it would be totally fair.

In that scenario, gankers/whalers would always bring combat probes (as they actually already do), and they'd just wait for the Rorqual to "teleport" somewhere, scan it down and warp in for the kill. In the meantime, the Rorqual pilot is hammering warp key, spamming friendly channels and praying for his beloved ship. You'd have to take into account the time it takes for a Rorqual to align, warp, the time it takes for a combat probe to lock it and the gankers to arrive or at least point it. Anyway, sounds like fun for both sides.



Even though the Rorq is a slow aligner it would be impossible for anyone to probe you down, warp to you, land on grid and tackle you before you warp off without a unable to move timer. As long as the timer is balanced this would create the desired variation depending on hunter probing skill, how big the system is, where did you teleport etc.

I rather the chances of Rorq dying depend on the hunter skill than the miner capability. Miners are not PvPers and they shouldn't have to show off PvP skill to avoid unwanted fights. In current PANIC button those who can muster people will, and those who cannot will not. Thus people will hunt Rorqs in the same regions and avoid others, and those regions won't use Rorqs much to begin with. That is not an interesting mechanic.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.