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[Ascension] Clone States and Corp Standings

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CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2016-11-11 16:13:21 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Hello

With the release of Ascension just around the corner, we realized that one implication of the Clone States has not been discussed yet, and we wanted to make sure and bring it up as it may affect your corporations.

Because Clone States allows anyone to login and play as an Alpha, our old account status system has undergone changes. One of them is that from now on, there will be no expired state associated with accounts, they will all be considered 'active'. Before Clone Status, disabled or expired accounts were not counted when calculating Corporation standings. This means that after the release of Ascension, your Corp standings may change if you have characters in the Corp that had been inactive or expired.

This may mean some extra admin work at release if inactive characters are having an undesired affect on standings. Unfortunately, we can't avoid that without making major changes to standings calculations which we don't have time to take on as part of this release.

Sorry for any inconvenience, the good news is that you can tell those players with expired accounts that they have no reason not to log in and play :)

@ccp_rise

Yarosara Ruil
#2 - 2016-11-11 17:18:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Yarosara Ruil
CCP Rise wrote:
This may mean some extra admin work at release if inactive characters are having an undesired affect on standings. Unfortunately, we can't avoid that without making major changes to standings calculations which we A: don't want to do and B: would be out of scope for this release anyway.


You think you don't want that, but you should reconsider.

The way standings are calculated is rubbish. Players and NPC standings work on two different wavelengths, for the sake of convenience player standings are set to -10, -5, 0, +5 and +10 values, because setting specific values to a player is impossible since the standing slider has the precision of a surgeon wearing oven mittens. And don't get me started on the fact that NPC standings work in an asymptote function, that gets stupidly harder to raise the higher the value gets, while no such distinction is given when standing penalties are involved. Why on earth are standings calculated based on percentages instead of a flat value? And why is it that each standing rank is a flat 100% and the maximum being 1000%? Wait, that's wrong, because a "maxed" 10 NPC standing is actually a 999,999999% rounded up with CCP_round magic.

Also, there's the fact that even with positive Guristas corporation and faction standings, Guristas still shoot players on sight and unprovoked, making it exceedingly hard to sustain those standings when resorting to self-defense. Plus, you've been removing the advantages of high NPC standings with each passing year, to the point they just make up for a poor roleplaying tool and a gatekeeper for missions.

My opinion might be worth less than spit, but I'd like that you guys give some thought to reviewing the standing system down the line, even if it takes years to make it a reality. Just saying.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#3 - 2016-11-11 17:23:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
With factional warfare being one of the most likely places to receive new alpha players, and (if I recall correctly) stated CCP intent to redirect players toward FW at the end of the new tutorial, it would be a big mistake to consider the standing system as "out of the scope of this release".

People taking faction standing hits without realizing it, and then quitting when they realize what they have to do to bring them back up, will definitely be a thing.

Similarly, the idea of being able to help newbies get access to higher level missions due to their presence in a player corporation could be a nice advantage given to player corporations in high-sec, which suffer from so many disadvantages due to the war dec system, it's not even funny... Instead, we have this system, which makes it counterproductive to recruit newbies if you want high corp standings.

Another wasted opportunity X

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Shalmon Aliatus
Bluestar Enterprises
The Craftsmen
#4 - 2016-11-11 17:52:18 UTC
What about war decs ?
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#5 - 2016-11-11 17:54:32 UTC
"Out of scope"

I'm confused... account time vs last login time... is there really that much of a difference?
Yarosara Ruil
#6 - 2016-11-11 18:15:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Yarosara Ruil
Sentient Blade wrote:
"Out of scope"

I'm confused... account time vs last login time... is there really that much of a difference?


Way back when jump clones required standings to install, an active player could contribute their standings to their corporation to allow everyone to install jump clones in stations belonging to any NPC corp that met the standing requirements. Their standing contribution,however, would be turned off if they didn't had an active subscription. The same way ghost training (training skills without a subscription) is also disabled.

What happens now is that every account will have a "subscription" come 15th of November, and what we will be playing is for the Omega status, as opposed to the freemium Alpha status. When that happens, players that didn't have a subscription paid account will count as subscribed, activating their login privileges, their skill training, and corporation standing contribution.

What this means for Faction Warfare corporations is that suddenly their Faction standings might drop thanks to inactive players becoming active. If those faction standings drop bellow 0 for their main faction, they will be kicked out of FW. Same is true for alliances.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#7 - 2016-11-11 19:02:40 UTC
Quote:
You think you don't want that, but you should reconsider.


Sorry, to be more clear, my team doesn't want to take on standings system changes as part of the Clone States work. You are likely correct that the system definitely warrants improvement and hopefully we (the dev team) get an opportunity to do that. I'm just saying that we (Team Size Matters) aren't interested or able to try and take that on right now.

Hope that makes more sense.

@ccp_rise

Demolishar
United Aggression
#8 - 2016-11-11 19:16:28 UTC
So basically, kick your inactive members with bad standings before the 15th.
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#9 - 2016-11-11 19:19:57 UTC
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
What happens now is that every account will have a "subscription" come 15th of November, and what we will be playing is for the Omega status, as opposed to the freemium Alpha status.


I get that, my question was more of a technical one.

If standings were calculated based on account status (I assume account status is a database index) why would it not be a (comparatively) simple change to have standings based on last login time (presumably another index).

This is assuming that there's a single process which calculates them at downtime. I seem to remember that being the case.

I think that would be better than a rather-poor "We don't want to deal with it" even when it falls under the effects of alpha clones in every way, shape and form.

Disclosure: I do not expect to be hit by this adjustment. I just have an interest in CCP teams not being allowed to cut corners.
Velarra
#10 - 2016-11-11 19:35:05 UTC
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
This may mean some extra admin work at release if inactive characters are having an undesired affect on standings. Unfortunately, we can't avoid that without making major changes to standings calculations which we A: don't want to do and B: would be out of scope for this release anyway.


You think you don't want that, but you should reconsider.

The way standings are calculated is rubbish. Players and NPC standings work on two different wavelengths, for the sake of convenience player standings are set to -10, -5, 0, +5 and +10 values, because setting specific values to a player is impossible since the standing slider has the precision of a surgeon wearing oven mittens. And don't get me started on the fact that NPC standings work in an asymptote function, that gets stupidly harder to raise the higher the value gets, while no such distinction is given when standing penalties are involved. Why on earth are standings calculated based on percentages instead of a flat value? And why is it that each standing rank is a flat 100% and the maximum being 1000%? Wait, that's wrong, because a "maxed" 10 NPC standing is actually a 999,999999% rounded up with CCP_round magic.

Also, there's the fact that even with positive Guristas corporation and faction standings, Guristas still shoot players on sight and unprovoked, making it exceedingly hard to sustain those standings when resorting to self-defense. Plus, you've been removing the advantages of high NPC standings with each passing year, to the point they just make up for a poor roleplaying tool and a gatekeeper for missions.

My opinion might be worth less than spit, but I'd like that you guys give some thought to reviewing the standing system down the line, even if it takes years to make it a reality. Just saying.


While you may be one of the Guri, ... in league with Nation and the Blood Raiders... You are certainly not alone in your valuing of Standings and how important they are to some of New Eden's Pilots.
Flextra Aurilen
Kriegsmarinewerft
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2016-11-11 20:48:52 UTC
I assume the "paidUntil" field in XML API's AccountStatus doesn't change, right? So we can still see how long their Omega is active?
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#12 - 2016-11-11 21:47:44 UTC
Shalmon Aliatus wrote:
What about war decs ?

Yes, IIRC war dec cost are also related to the number of active players in a corporation. Will war dec cost go up now?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#13 - 2016-11-11 23:54:17 UTC
El 1974 wrote:
Shalmon Aliatus wrote:
What about war decs ?

Yes, IIRC war dec cost are also related to the number of active players in a corporation. Will war dec cost go up now?

Pretty sure they're going to stay the same.
It's tied to the membership, I don't ever remember seeing anything about active members through.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#14 - 2016-11-12 01:54:28 UTC
CCP Rise, how much work would it be to tie the standings calculation to the Omega members only?

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Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2016-11-12 02:02:59 UTC
Petrified wrote:
CCP Rise, how much work would it be to tie the standings calculation to the Omega members only?



According to his above post, a lot more than they are able or willing to do for now. To quantify it into an actual man-hours count is likely impossible.
DJB16
DJB Alpha
#16 - 2016-11-13 15:52:13 UTC
ive asked on twitter to several CCP members but no one has said yet

can your transfer Characters from alpha clone status or do you need to be Omega to do so
char bazaar rule 11 and 13 need to be updated to reflect this also
please also make a public post about it
Feed Syndication
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2016-11-14 06:13:50 UTC
Isn't "number of active accounts" also used in calculating war costs?
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
#18 - 2016-11-14 08:52:12 UTC
Quote:
The formula for calculating wardec cost is (log2.05831 N)^2 * 300000 * N^0.27, where N is the number of members in the target corp/alliance.


http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/War_Declaration
Sarus Gailen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2016-12-02 02:47:06 UTC
Reminder, this is just speculation and is only brought up because of the Gnosis.

Is there a possibility that battlecruisers (except for the ones that can use BB guns) be made available to Alpha clones in the future? I mean this is only me wondering because I can fly a Gnosis. And despite it being an ugly ship I can fit it out quite nicely even with only using T1 weaponry.

The battlecruiser is still a medium-sized ship and can only use medium weapons (except the so-called 'T3' ones that can use battleship turrets. I know, wrong way of calling them but the name stuck to many other people).

Federal Navy Academy

Stay here... and be an idiot forever. We're just that awesome.

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Energizer Hashem
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2016-12-02 17:00:24 UTC
About racial restrictions, than one can only access ships and weapon systems of his empire,
iam amarrian but chose the caldari playing style so iam skilled on it
so it sucks to return to the game to find that i completely lost my playing style
Why that racial restrictions?
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