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Should missions pay for the ships for next-level missions? Do they?
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2016-11-11 02:28:43 UTC
Joong Ma wrote:

  • By "progression" I mean the key advancement in EVE: a predictable income that allows you to buy "normally-priced" ships. For the sake of discussion I'm setting that somewhere in the range of "T1 hull, T1-fit" Battle Cruisers and T1/T1 Battleships. Say 150 million to 300 million ISK
    • To me this still expresses some inherent "progression" in Eve which I don't believe exists. Yes as you learn more about the game you will likely make more isk. Yes this game is ruled largely by it's economy. However there are players who play this game for years staying in cheap small ships the entire time.

    If you would like to some day fly battleships and / or run level 4 missions that is fine and there is nothing wrong with that. However there is no inherent game mechanic which requires you to "progress" in ship size or tech or even income.

    "Predictable income" is something that will be low in this game that, by intended design, pushes "risk vs. reward" as a marketing slogan. "normally-priced ships" is a very very subjective phrase. What is "normal" to you and 'normal" to someone else may or may not be even remotely related.
    Joong Ma wrote:

  • With the exception of charity from other players, my current average income (measured by when I'm spending time dedicated to making ISK) is approximately 10 million / hour. That's not my best hour ever of course, but it's what I average
  • I believe I've included all the different ways of making income from L3's (for example that number includes the approximate value of "monitized" LPs, loot, and salvage
    • 10 Million isk / hour sounds a little low to me for running level 3's in high sec. It's been a while since I've run missions but I seem to recall level 3's paying better than that. Your looting and salvaging of them is probably why you are not making so much.

    Read mission reports at http://eve-survival.org/. Learn the missions and figure out how to run them fast for max LP, and only loot special items that are often noted in the comments. Some level 3 missions have a somewhat high chance of dropping items that can be in the double digit Millions ( like skill books etc.. ) so only pause to look for those items otherwise speed run and go for max LP if isk / hour is your goal. Also try fitting more gank and less tank if you think that you can get away with it. Sometimes a little extra dps can go a long way.



    Joong Ma wrote:

    What I tried to highlight in the OP is that while enough L3's will of course cover a Battleship eventually, it will take a lot of time to buy and fit a ship with a hull cost in the order of 200 million, and fitting on top of that. I think it's a bit out of balance.
    Not too much perhaps, and possibly it's must a result of prices drifting (it can't be easy to balance up the total income from missions with the cost of ships) ...

    ... but I still think it's out of balance for genuine rookies. Perhaps this isn't a bad thing, in CCP's eyes, but for me it's a serious issue.

    Again these is no reason for you to get into a battleship right away, or ever. This is not a progression game. Your ability to earn isk has more to do with knowledge of the game than it does skills. The only way for CCP to reduce the knowledge gap for new players is to dumb the game down and I have no interest in seeing that happen and I hope the CCP devs don't either.


    Joong Ma wrote:

    IMO there should be natural paths towards (among other things) a reliable income in the game for new players. They should not require a large in-game contact net of experienced player, charity, deep specialist knowledge, or trusting other players or organizations (**). These aren't rookie characteristics. There should not be any "obvious" paths that lead to dead-ends. And IMO there should not be any paths that force rookies to expose themselves to the kind of "asymmetric risk" highlighted in the paragraph above.

    Banning ganking (the primary risk) obviously isn't a practical solution. But "smoothing out" the suggested rookie activities so they can afford the standard activities even if they lose a few context-necessary ships would do it.


    **
    A short P.S. about trust:
    There may well be easy paths into the game through joining up with established players, but I think some of the responses here assume a level of trust in strangers which I've been advised against. As I learn the game I'm sure I'll figure out ways to separate the predators from the potentially helpful players, but right now I haven't even figured out how standings actually work :)
    A new player has to accept the inherent risks of EVE. It doesn't seem reasonable to be told that to get started you have to ignore them.

    Eve is a deep and complex game that takes time and effort to master. I've been playing for years and still very much feel like a rookie in many ways. This game is a sandbox so "natural paths" towards anything are kind of against the stated goals of the devs. "reliable income" for new players kind of goes against the whole risk versus reward motto. Making games that facilitate solo play to me go against the whole idea of being in an MMO. Regardless of my feelings on the matter Eve is a game about networking and making friends. You can be good with that or not but that does not change the fact that the game is intentionally designed to push group play over solo play. So if you are not interested in making friends and doing things with other players and putting your self out there or taking a chance on someone with making a potential friend as a reward is not your thing then maybe Eve is not your game.

    Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
    Alaric Faelen
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #22 - 2016-11-11 02:53:26 UTC
    OP, that 10mil isk an hour isn't really too bad for a low SP character running L3 missions in high sec. That of course could also be affected by looting/salvage but when I ran missions I never bothered with anything below L4.

    Putting time into core skills now will pay dividends and allow you to fly smaller ships better than jumping up a class as soon as you get the skill to 1.
    A properly fitted BC can run many (most?) of the L4 missions. It would be MUCH better to concentrate on core skills and maxing gunnery/missile support and tank resist skills rather than chasing Large size weapons to slap on a BS. If you run missions, you should have a network of agents so you can decline missions without much trouble until you get ones you can run in your upgraded L3 ship.

    As you progress in ship class in Eve, often there is less room for low SP in decent fits. T1 frigates are quite forgiving in how you fit them...but fitting space gets tighter as you move up the ship tree. To really get the most out of a given ship, you will most likely be walking a tightrope of PG/CPU or looking to faction modules/implants to get the fitting you want. So having those core skills at V really will matter.
    (as an aside, most fittings you will see theorycrafted simply assume 'all V' character skills- so if a fitting seems amazing, remember that you probably need amazing skills trained up to fit it)

    Like I said in my earlier post- try doing anoms/sigs for a bit in a cruiser/BC and work on core skills. Exploration is a solid career in Eve, and you might even find you prefer hacking or even ninja gas mining W-space. The probe scanner is the key to a ton of content in Eve.



    Piugattuk
    Litla Sundlaugin
    #23 - 2016-11-11 06:04:01 UTC
    Joong Ma wrote:
    As the title suggests, I can't make enough from my current missions (Level 3) to pay for the recommended ships for L4.

    Are missions supposed to generate enough cash to pay for a next-level-capable ship in say 20 hours of missions?

    Neither L2's nor L3's have come close to that for me. L2 -> L3 I covered with Venture mining. The step from L3 to L4 looks impossible.


    I use both a drake and a brutix to run lvl 3/4, if you can mine you can buy a bpc and build a battlecruiser, best way to get the cash rolling, find a system with lots of stations that have a mix of 1,2,3's security missions, take as many missions from all the agent's in that system and blitz them all, you will get story line missions, this will give pretty good payouts, also make sure to train skills like negotiations, and security connections, etc.
    ShahFluffers
    Ice Fire Warriors
    #24 - 2016-11-11 08:26:13 UTC
    Memphis Bass wrote:
    4. This game does not guarantee that you will succeed / become the hero / reach level 80 / get enough money to afford your ships, just because you're paying a subscription. Making money in this game is entirely dependent on taking it / stealing it / tricking it / trading it from other players; missions are just the basic activity that's there to get you started, but if you want to make REAL money, you'll likely have to take it from others, who will remain poor as a result and maybe even leave the game because of it.

    I quoted this and underlined / bolded the bit that I think should be emphasized.


    You are no more guaranteed to make more ISK than I am just because you live in high-sec / low-sec / null-sec / wormhole space and I do not. The same is true in reverse.
    Other factors besides your own character and players abilities can make you more or less efficient.

    You are no more guaranteed to avoid non-consensual PvP than I am to impose it.
    There are a plethora of mechanics that allow you to avoid other players blowing you up... and there are a plethora of mechanics that allow me to do so.


    In EVE, the onus is on the player to learn and utilize the mechanics accordingly to succeed... even against other players.

    How did you Veterans start?
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