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This is just flawed logic. They're different hulls with different roles and different requirements. That something is about the size of a BC doesn't mean it should automatically fit BC class tank, deal BC class DPS, have BC level speed, or anything else, because size is not a determining parameter for anything except how easy a ship is to hit relative to its transversal.

If this were the case the Skiff wouldn't tank half as well as it does, just as an example.

So no, Mining Ships != Combat Ships of the same hull size. You're trading the ability to fight for the ability to mine ore, hold tons of the stuff, and do whatever else is specific to that hull, just like a Combat BC trades it's ability to mine well for moar dakka.



I never said industrial ships were or should be "segregated". If CCP want to introduce a combat-miner then great, but there should be trade-offs for that.

As for the "ability to face combat" thing, that's entirely a matter of ship choice, fitting, and tactics as it is with anything else. It also doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the Porpoise should get a range bonus on its Command Bursts. Mining ships aren't expected to move much, and they won't willingly be spread out to the same extent that you'll find in a combat engagement. The exception is extremely large belts, but simply making all Command Bursts big enough to cover the entire belt removes that as a consideration on where to mine and what boosting ship to bring. In effect it makes the game simpler and easier, by removing a potential problem a player might have to think there way around.

In short, how much ships can i boost with the Porpoise and how much Cycle Time and Mining Yield Boost do i get maxxed out? Thx!

Thanks :)

Im curious what the packaged and unpackaged m3 will be on the porpoise? Will it be in the BC m3 range, noctis m3 range?

I am more concerned what sound a Porpoise will make when it explodes in a brilliant flash of light...

So comparing a T2 Ship designed to be tanked heavily (Skiff) to a T2 ship that is designed to be tanked heavily (HIC) is wrong?
Uh what. They are equivalent heavy tank designs, and the Skiff doesn't even come close to out tanking a battleship.
So thank you for making the opposite point than you intended.

Tyberious nicely framed the rest of my point, and at no point have I ever advocated for any change to the ships bonuses, just for a change in the fitting capabilities and some unbonused slots for turrets or launchers. & yes, just because it's BC sized doesn't mean it 'needs' BC stats, but those should be the default starting point and then modify slightly from there.
For example ABC's don't magically lose half their slots just because they fit large guns.

As much as I like the idea of a mini-Orca, I don't see much of a role for this ship. The Orca is far superior in every way except for the price-tag, but nowadays everyone can just insert 20€ to get enough money for an Orca + fitting in no time, so that is just another incentive to buy a Plex. Essentially this leaves the Porpoise with no Purpose (haha, the pun!), similar to what the old T1 frigates were like: you use them if you lack the (RL-)money.

This ship needs a more defined role if you want to see people flying it, and there are enough roles still open. My favorite would be to reduce the dps and give it a covert ops instead, which would be just the perfect addition for the cloaky miner ships we got earlier. Or at least some bonus to cloaking like the black ops get, but then I wouldn't know how to maneuver this thing through 0.0 with that align time. Also upping the cargo to 1000m³ would be a good thing to have, so that the player has at least the option to fit in some expanded cargo holds.

Essentially the ship as it is right now is a nice first try, but it won't find much use.

If the best thing about it is that it's explosion isn't so expensive, then it is not that much of a good ship. Yes you can push that into a C1 WH, but that's hardly worth the risk considering the low amount of ore you can find there. As soon as ore gets into reasonable levels of quantity you can already push an Orca through. Since the Porpoise can only hold the content of 2 retrievers, while the orca can hold about 10 retrievers worth of cargo, you in all cases want the Orca for most mining missions. Otherwise you will have to have a ship hauling ore back and forth, and then things get annoying and complicated. Also the Orca can store combat ships in case you get attacked, while the Portoise cannot.

Aside from WH space however the use-case of the Porpoise once again boils down to "cheap enough to loose it", which is barely a reason to use it. Now add a CovOps into that and suddenly this ship becomes a lot more useful, because once reds warp in, you can instantly hit the cloak button and then warp away to safety. If you don't have any cloak bonus the reds know where you are, trying to crawl away at 20 m/s, and the ship becomes a guaranteed loss.

If I had to plan a mining ops and would have to choose between a guaranteed 50m isk loss in case of an attack, that can't even hold enough ore to cover that loss on it's own, or a ship that is a lot more expensive but also durable and allows my miners to switch to combat ships and comes with 5 times the cargo... Well chances are good that I pick the Orca.

A Marauder is not a tank oriented ship in the same way that a Skiff or a HIC is, it doesn't have the resists or brick-for-its-size tank that the Skiff or a HIC has. They get something like that with the Bastion module but that's at a significant trade off. You would also need to brick tank a Battleship to hit the same levels of tank you get on a HIC fit.

In general it's going to tank about as well as a HIC, which proves my point about size not dictating performance.



I recommend you go back and read the chain of discussion you jumped into then. Start here or scroll up a bit if you want to read Goati's original post instead of my quote of it for some reason.



Possibly, but that's its own topic and well outside the scope of the introduction of this new hull or the general changes to Mining Support vessels. That would be an entire rework of all mining hulls and would introduce some pretty significant balance issues. If a ship has slots it should have the fitting to reasonably use them. Even discounting the high slots on a BC or Cruiser if you gave all mining ships mid and low slots to roughly match a Combat BC that's an extra 2 slots each. That's pretty much a straight buff to max mining yield, tank, and basically the ships in every way.

I believe part of the reason for the original limited slot layout was that it effectively constrains how high mining yields can get and how tanky you can be while mining. Even if you, somehow, only give these ships enough CPU and PG to add tank in those extra slots you're still giving them a pretty significant buff and I just don't see a good reason for that right now.

For a BS a marauder is actually about as close as you get in raw HP, former tier 3 BSs coming shortly behind (or ahead in the case of the pair with resist bonuses). BSs don't actually have a true equivalent class, but in terms of HP their still the subcap kings.

As a side note, the skiff trails the onyx at around ~125k vs 150k EHP fully bricked. Rokh got just over 200k, Raven ~176k, Golem 195k (without bastion). Fully bricked vs fully bricked gives ~10%-50% raw HP benefit to the BSs. That's on top of the advantages of their inherent module use granting them greater DPS and range per their role. As stated prior, both the HICs and the Skiff are designed to tank outside of their class, and so so in the same size envelope with similar results. That means there's nothing to reign in (save the base HP in exchange for room to fir it decently), nor is there any idea that class conventions for balancing around size AND role are not being applied.

Sure, lets do that looking for the relevant bits being discussed:

If you want to suggest the ONLY point here is about the bonus and not any comment about how industrial ships are balanced vs similarly sized combat ships then please present your reasoning. As it stands I'm not aware of any good reason not to address the content of the post and your counterclaim.

How is the introduction of a ship that has all of the limitations and failings of industrial ships not relevant to the limitations and failings of industrial ships? This is just as good a place to bring it up as any because the philosophy directly affects the hull in question.

Yes, it's a greater issue than just this hull, but it applies to this hull so here we are.

As a aide note regarding the idea of a pure buff, you're making a bit of an assumption there. The complaint has 2 parts: 1) The limited slots and fitting pigeonhole the ships too much, which 2) Necessitates baking too much of their ideal function into the stats to make them work. A 6 mid/4 low skiff with room to fit could (and should) easily be a 15k unfitted EHP ship instead of 35K. Adding 2 lows does potentially increase yields, but again, stats baked into mods because the ships using the can't stack them deeply.