Test Server Feedback

hi ok so I have spotted something that is rely bugging me on sis Citadels and engineering complex's First of looks nice but I do not under stand why the basic complex one needs 9 hours ven time over citadel basic 3 hours? Both can do the same thing slimier size so why longer ven times. would be great if they wear on par to citadels or slight over so small 5 hours med 10 hours large 15h e.g.

Second this will tick a lot of corps and alliances off big style why is it each citadel or E complex to safe time is only allowed one of each module type in industry? So 1 lab 1 building array and so on when for example a large researching corps can have a large tower with about 5-6 labs why would you are asking players now in November to have a state of the art E complex or citadel x5

to do this will be less cost effective for small and larger corps as most corps alliances have 1-50 jobs running on a daily basis.

next could you guys on each industrial service module put a note for example this lab service module does 4 to 5 jobs per service module, and now we come to building freighters witch service module do I build them in. In high sec citadel it is not clear as no capital building in high sec so do we need a new class for them? and my tower say get a bonus to building for the module applied does the complex citadel on each tire get any base bonus? to labs to building or could the rigs not buff it up so t1 rig +5 to all lab slots per t1 rig t2 +slots to all innervation e.c.t?. I would be very great full if there is just a little more info added as stated why chose citadels or E complex to build in over towers witch is more cost effective right than the new citadels E complex's witch are not going to be cost effective to run.

Hi,

I have feedback about the Citadel Industry Facility Tax:

As it stands right now, the percentage you setup in your Structure Browser window, and that you will get for each job, is a percentage based off of the NPC tax applied to that job before the player tax, and that is then added to the final tax.

So, to take a concrete example:

• I have an item worth 10 000 000 isk that I want to build. The System Cost Multiplier is at 1.00%.
• That makes the base NPC tax at 100 000 isk.
• The Citadel has a bonus of 5% to the tax rate so that's now 95 000 isk.
• Now let's imagine that I have my industry fee tax setup at 25% in my citadel. That's an added 95 000isk x 0.25 = 23 750 isk tax.
• So the final tax on the item will be 118 750 isk. 95k for the NPC and 23k for the corporation owning the Citadel.

Side-node: Please everyone take note that the maximum tax I could get in that situation, for my corp wallet, is 47500isk for a 10mil item. Again, that's the MAXIMUM in that situation. But let's come back to that later.

This is very weird. Your tax income is dependant of the System Cost multiplier of the system. Which means that as soon as it starts rising, the rise is even more important if you are in a citadel. Penalizing citadel producers more, and making quite the unstable revenue stream for the citadel owner.

Worse, to get a competitive tax rate while still making a profit, public industry citadel owners will have to calculate precisely the expected System Cost Multiplier, and micromanage it. Keep in mind that a low activity system at 0.1% System Cost Multiplier, can get taxed at 1400% by the citadel owner, and that's still only equal to a System Cost Multiplier of 1.5% for the producer.

BUT, should the System Cost Multiplier ever rise to a whooping, say, 0.4%, because the citadel is attracting some people, then suddenly your effective final Tax for the producer goes from 1.5% to 6%! For a 0.3% System Cost Multiplier. That's just insane! Imagine the required micromanagement.

Of course, all of that is only there for the purpose of demonstrating the holes in the current Citadel Owner Industry Tax calculation method, as said tax is anyway capped at 50%. Meaning that all hopes of profit for a public Industry Citadel owner in a low System Cost Multiplier system are lost anyway.

And even at that low 50% cap rate, if the System Cost Multiplier were to go from 3% to 5%, then your share relative to the total value of the item would go from 1.5% to 2.5%. So you'd need to manually adjust it down if you wanted to keep it flat and easy to understand for your customers. And forget about using same Structure Profile for citadels in different systems, at it may not be the same multiplier at all. (So the way it currently works on Sisi also defeats the point of Structure Profiles)
Again, that's bad day-to-day micromanaging on a per-structure basis.

What could be done instead:

• The Citadel Tax Reduction should be a flat percentage reduction of the current System Cost Multiplier. Currently, going from -3% to -5% of tax reduction is COMPLETELY negligible as that's basically taxing the value of an item 0.1% less, in a 10% System Cost Multiplier system (which is almost as high as it gets and pretty rare). If, instead, it took the System Cost Multiplier percentage, and removed a flat percentage, then:
--- For a XL Engineering Complex, a 10% System Cost Multiplier would become a 5% System Cost Multiplier. (because minus 5%)
--- For a Medium, a 7% System Cost Multiplier would become a 4% System Cost Multiplier (because -3%)
--- For all Engineering Complexes, a 1% System Cost Multiplier would become a 0% System Cost Multiplier. Which makes more sense than taking a few isks off the top of the tax.


• The Citadel Industry Facility Tax (aka the tax that goes to the player corporation) should be a flat value of the item. So, if I have a 1% tax, then it's like adding +1% to the System Cost Multiplier, after all Citadel Reductions have been applied of course (assuming the proposition above is applied too)
--- Example: Regardless of the System Cost Multiplier, if I have a 1% player tax, then I get 1% of the isk value of the item being produced. So if someone is producing a 10 000 000 isk Item in my citadel, I get 100 000 isk. PERIOD. No need to worry about wild changes in the System Cost Multiplier. EVER.

I believe this system would be more logical, easier to manage for everyone, would give more benefit to having a citadel in a low cost multiplier system, while providing tax incentives for everyone to use an engineering complex. Of course, if a flat percentage reduction of the System Cost Multiplier is too strong with -3/-4/-5, then maybe going to -1/-2/-3 could be an option.

Thanks for your attention.

The corporation set tax is relative to the Structure Browser, which is a player only, Upwell Structures only thing. NPC stations wouldn't be included.

Of course, in a way, the System Cost Multiplier works exactly like the corporation set tax could work in Citadels: It's a flat % of the total value of the item. Right now, that's exactly what it is.

For that specific suggestion, I'm basically just asking that the corporation set tax work the same way.

My brain hurts.

More accurately if you want to define my use case: I'm interested in manufacturing, and offer public manufacturing services, but I don't want to have to go in a high System Cost Multiplier system (which is nonsense, it would be going against the very logic behind the SCM) to be able to tax people high-enough that it is at least paying for the fuel.

Frankly, we don't need more citadels near Jita & co, it doesn't provide much services. The system should be balanced in such a way that the best profits are to be made in remote areas, just like the System Cost Multiplier was made to push people away from agglomerating too much.

I'm not against complexity (thankfully!) or fluctuating costs, and certainly not fluctuating profits (that'd be insane). But I think that it's really kinda dumb to have a player tax that is arbitrarily tied to the System Cost Multiplier.

In addition to all the reasons about micromanagement, lack of profit, unstability, etc... It's also very confusing. The UI basically says "Industry Tax - Public - 10%" and you end up getting like 0.05% of the item's value in tax... What?

But to be honest I didn't think about my use case when writing the initial post. I was gathering information in order to write my Engineering Complexes ultimate guide and thought: "Wait a minute, this is completely stupid" xD

I want Engineering Complexes, and Upwell structures in general to be useful, not niche.

Didn't try yet on SiSi, but I not fully understand your claims. I'm familiar with industry in NPC stations and there it works like that. You pay a fee (not tax) for jobs which is the higher the more jobs of that type are active in the system, it's also tied to the base value of the item to manufacture, research etc. That's the production cost. On top of that comes a simple 10% NPC tax from the cost value. Usually the tax is a neglectable value, it's a tax factor on top of the production fee.

So here comes my knowledge gap, will the NPC tax factor in an EC be replaced by the owner's tax factor or will the owner's tax factor be additive to the 10% NPC tax factor similar to highsec POCOS?

Anyway it's a simple and straight forward system every industrialist understands. Of course in low index systems the cost and therefore the income from the tax factor will be small ... for a couple of days, before the index spikes because of the attractive location at first. The income is tied to the activity in your citadel, fair? Also because the index does not scale linear, there is a zone of cost stability for average systems.

But there remains a principle incompatibility of industry with cooperation. If you want to get a better deal, you must change the whole system how production works ...

Weapon Accuracy Score
turns (sorta back) into
Turret Tracking.

Value shown appears to remain that of WAS.

At first glance it seems as though this will be self-regulating. As the system cost index rises, tax amounts increase. As taxes increase, less players choose to use the system. Less job hours in the system (eventually) result in a lower system cost index. So I figured an EC owner can set a tax rate and let market forces control structure use.

But with further thought, I realize it really is somewhat broken. While players can, without too much difficulty, see the structure industry tax rate, and the system cost index, there is not an easy way to see the overall effect of the two without actually getting to the point of installing a job. For instance, how many players comparing two systems, one with a system cost index of 2% and an EC with 5% industry tax rate, and the other with a system cost index of 3% and an EC with 1% industry tax rate, will conclude the job cost will be lower in the first system? And it isn't enough for one EC owner to micromanage the tax rate when competing with other structures that do not.

It will be interesting to see how many ECs pop up with 0% industry tax. There are valid reasons for offering 0% broker fees in a market citadel, but given the fact that the more an EC is used, the more it costs to use it, I can't see any benefit to reducing the tax rate.