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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

First post First post
Author
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7361 - 2016-11-08 23:41:18 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Jerghul wrote:
I am not particularly concerned with balance.


This part is obvious.

Undocked ships mean nothing if there is no way to actually hunt them (other than letting excessive PvE tank the market)


Look a statement we can all agree on!!

With that statement Jerghul will never be taken seriously again.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7362 - 2016-11-09 03:03:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerghul
post above this one reported.

And indeed, if undocking did not involve risk, then it would not matter if ships are docked or undocked.

Undocking always involves risk. Everywhere in Eve.

==========

My point has incidentally been to find a "least intrusive" way to temper afk cloaky camping. A list of very intrusive suggestions could always be compiled, but such a list would only serve to highlight the merit of my suggestion.

A 5 hour timer on cloaking modules (which is what my suggestion boils down to) is hardly worthy of high drama.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1

Leena Turos
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7363 - 2016-11-09 08:51:11 UTC
Current situation cloaked campers in system making game-play very non fun and making me very close to unsubbing several accounts. Combat scanners don't work. There should be a Tech 2 variant of combat scanner probes that take a long time and don't exactly pinpoint but give a rough idea for the area for you start searching in. they should take a long train just like with anything T2 not used by alpha clones and cost a huge amount. Possibly even limiting the amount of these probes you can have to out at anyone time with shorter time spans that they can be active. Everything should have a counter. Sure local in k-space means you know they are in system. If not using probe to be able to find them then at least make it so that their d-scan can't be used while cloaked, can't target target cloaked why should your d-scan work while cloak?

I know I am not the only that feels this way, browning old posts from 2013 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=221196&p=4. these suggestions have been made before. EvE is a game and should be balanced. As much as CCP likes to think of it as a sandbox there are still rules that apply. Otheriwse if it was a true sandbox then we would be fitting strip miners to all our battleships, putting lazors on drakes etc.

Please CCP, make cloaking more balanced oh and let Rorquals dock at large industry structures if they can dock at Fortizar they should be able to dock at the Azbels. Consistancy is important.

Thank you.

Kind regards
From a returning player
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7364 - 2016-11-09 09:28:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerghul
Two ideas:

1. Probe down afk cloaky camping ships, abeit with a significant entry barrier.
2. Decouple d-scan while cloaked.

Both ideas collide with implicit threat (what fozzy called "pretty big pscycological effect").

1. The potential to probe down afk cloaky campers, no matter how difficult it is and how much skill points and isk you need to invest to do so, will destroy afk cloaky camping.

People cannot go afk if there is a chance - no matter how small - that their afk cloaked ship might get scanned down and caught.

Destorying afk cloaky camping is a bit of an overkill in my opinion. I just want it tempered somewhat.

2. It does not matter if d-scan is inactive while cloaked. Sites can still be inspected manually while cloaked. So it does nothing to foster a perception that undocking is safer.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1

Black Pedro
Mine.
#7365 - 2016-11-09 11:50:39 UTC
Leena Turos wrote:
Current situation cloaked campers in system making game-play very non fun and making me very close to unsubbing several accounts.
I'm sorry, but CCP is not going to let you have "fun" by allowing you to completely secure your nullsec space. Did you look at CCP Quant's latest numbers? Nullsec ratting is out of control and probably will see a nerf in the coming months unless something dramatic changes. CCP is definitely not going to give you a module to remove the last bit of risk from what is suppose to be the riskiest space in the game.

Eventually you might get some system to find cloaked ships, but it will not come without other changes that put nullsec ratters at some additional risk. If defending your space is not "fun" for you, then you might as well unsub now and save yourself the pain of dealing with AFK cloakers in a game you will not be playing much longer, or maybe better yet, find some other way to make a living that you find more fun than defending your sovereign space.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7366 - 2016-11-09 13:29:56 UTC
Post reported for abusive tone and adhom

Point of order:

Goonspace is up to something. Import numbers and rats killed/hr in some areas are...shall we say...outstanding.

Ratting in general may be just fine. We don't know. CCP does know.

Though rat AI is no doubt due an overhaul soon enough in any event.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1

Raw Matters
Brilliant Starfire
#7367 - 2016-11-09 13:36:29 UTC
Repeating my idea from a few years ago:

Main problem with cloakers are the AFK guys imo, because you can just terrorize an entire system even while not being in front of the screen. If there was a system that would make cloakers force to at least frequently check their screen, the entire cloaking problem would become less of a menace without destroying cloaking. And if you cannot afk-cloak, there will be a lot less afk-cloakers out there.

My idea would be to add a sovereignty feature that is capable of disabling all currently active cloaking systems for a short time (imagine it like a cloaking-EMP), like 5-10 minutes every once in a while (like 4h recharge time). This will not be much of a problem for the active cloaker, because he can just jump around safespots and won't be affected much by it. This will be deadly for afk cloakers. And the people that own the system can at least do something actively against cloakers, even though it is still tough to actually kill them. Random cloakers won't be affected, because a corp will hardly use a 4h recharge device just to get that one guy at the gate.

Effectively such a system would add gameplay value to all players and reduce the AFK cloaker issue by giving players the feeling that they can actually do something against him. Imagine the corp bringing out their finest scanner ships and players, and the hero that finally finds and tackles him. That's a lot more fun that "Oh there is a cloaker".
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7368 - 2016-11-09 13:45:49 UTC
Being prepared to fight off a potential fleet is part of life in null sec. If an AFK Cloaker can preven you from even undocking then there is no way you are prepared to fight for your space.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Black Pedro
Mine.
#7369 - 2016-11-09 14:07:03 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Ratting in general may be just fine. We don't know. CCP does know.
We do know since they said at Eve Vegas that they are unhappy with the "ease" of nullsec ratting. And the problem is only getting worse. A quick look at Quant's numbers indeed shows that ISK released into the economy by ratting is up almost 50% since the end of the last major war in May.

If that doesn't change, expect a straight-out cut to bounty payments in the near future, not changes that make nullsec ratting safer like the ones proposed in this thread. I mean, feel free to continue to whine here for CCP to make the AFK campers go away, but facts are fact and the current problems with the game are more in the direction of too much safety and too much ISK generation, so a buff to this activity (without a corresponding bigger nerf) seems unlikely at best.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7370 - 2016-11-09 14:19:34 UTC
Null-sec sov is designed around the concept of peak time.

afk cloaky camping is an off-peak issue. Null-sec players have better things to do in their corporation's peak times than rat.

Though obviously, afk cloaky camping can dramatically impact on player abilities to fund pvp.

=========

We know that a huge chunk of the bounties are being given to very specific areas.

Where indeed ratting is way too easy.

Its a granular problem. You need data we do not have to see where in null-sec bounty payments are too high. Luckily, CCP has that data.

I am actually in favour of tweaking bounties somewhat along with introducing a 5 hour cloak timer (which my suggestion boils down to). Though technically, I wager I favour better rat AI that would in turn translate to lower bounties.

Nothing in null-sec is safer than remaining docked up. With the exception of afk cloaky camping.

Any change that causes players to undock more is by definition making them less safe.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1

Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7371 - 2016-11-09 14:27:55 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
post above this one reported.

And indeed, if undocking did not involve risk, then it would not matter if ships are docked or undocked.

Undocking always involves risk. Everywhere in Eve.


It involves no risk in the sov null blue doughnut with intel channels out 15 systems and 100% perfect intel with local chat.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#7372 - 2016-11-09 14:43:39 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Jerghul wrote:
post above this one reported.

And indeed, if undocking did not involve risk, then it would not matter if ships are docked or undocked.

Undocking always involves risk. Everywhere in Eve.


It involves no risk in the sov null blue doughnut with intel channels out 15 systems and 100% perfect intel with local chat.

Yup. Nothing a good nerf to local couldn't fix however. That could be a delay, something like regional local, or some other way to circumvent the infallible intel provided by local.

This paradigm where players just dock up whenever there is another player in the system is a terrible one for the game and has been allowed to go along way too long. It isn't fun for the attacker, nor fun for the defender (as evidenced by this length of this thread). Game play should take place in space, between players making game decisions, not primarily based around who can pay attention to their intel channels the closest and evade fights most efficiently.

In any case, AFK cloaking ain't going away anytime soon. Nothing fundamental has changed with nullsec and the same reasons that CCP has left it in the game all these years apply today. Big game changes are afoot though, and perhaps as part of that you will get some way to find cloaked ships in space, although I bet after CCP has finished nerfing the perfect intel of local the risk of an AFK cloaker will no longer seem such a big deal.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7373 - 2016-11-09 15:20:43 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Null-sec sov is designed around the concept of peak time.

afk cloaky camping is an off-peak issue. Null-sec players have better things to do in their corporation's peak times than rat.

What?
Peak hours are a player effect not a game mechanic, and nothing is designed around peak hours.

Sov-null sec is designed around the concept of sovereignty, hence its name.
Part of being sovereign is the ability to defend your space which it would seem many are in null sec are not willing to do.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7374 - 2016-11-09 18:10:30 UTC
Rendering afk redundant by nerfing local will lead to less ships undocking and is entirely contrary to my goal of having more ships undocked.

Sov vulnerability windows are designed specifically around peak time windows that teams of players define themselves.

Sov is not designed to cater only to organisations that can muster peak activity on a 24/7 schedual.

Feel free to disagree on these two points. I will rest assured on my understanding being in line with what CCP knows to be true.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1

Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7375 - 2016-11-09 18:12:01 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Rendering afk redundant by nerfing local will lead to less ships undocking


And your evidence for this is what?
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7376 - 2016-11-09 18:15:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerghul
wormhole space population numbers. Lack of real time information available to individual players is something the overwhelming majority of EvE players find incredibly unappealing.

But I am not trying to prove anything to you. I am arguing for the benefit of CCP.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1

Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7377 - 2016-11-09 18:44:28 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
wormhole space population numbers. Lack of real time information available to individual players is something the overwhelming majority of EvE players find incredibly unappealing.

But I am not trying to prove anything to you. I am arguing for the benefit of CCP.


So in your mind the only difference between WHs and null is local? That's a fairly small part of why people choose WH space. That's why I said you should actually try them before using them as an example. Now that we've established local is not why people choose/don't choose WHs, what is your evidence that no local would make people undock less?
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7378 - 2016-11-09 18:49:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerghul
Reported above post. Straw man argument.



The lack of local is the overwhelming reason the overwhelming majority of EvE players find wormhole space incredibly unappealing.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1

Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7379 - 2016-11-09 19:02:46 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Reported above post. Straw man argument.
Pot finally calls the kettle black.

Quote:

The lack of local is the overwhelming reason the overwhelming majority of EvE players find wormhole space incredibly unappealing.

Generallly no it is not the reason why. For the most part the players who I have talked to about WHs it is the bubbles and that there ship can be destroyed with no repercussions.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7380 - 2016-11-09 19:06:46 UTC
Reported above post for adhom.

Bubbles and destruction without repurcussion does not explain the population disparity between null-sec and wormhole space.

Lack of local does.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1