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Cloak Hunters?!

Author
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-01-18 18:55:37 UTC
Remove local already!
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-01-18 19:04:15 UTC
Either cloak or cloak hunter will be required to be more or less useless.

It can literally take hours for a cloaky to maneuver, position, reposition, collect intel to get a kill. Stealth, for the most part, does not quickly accomplish any goal. As such, a cloaky-hunter would need to also suffer this time commitment to achieve its goal. Otherwise, you relegate cloaky ships to quick ambush tactics effectively rendering them useless for anything else.

If a cloaked ship can be found in any reasonable amount of time a large portion of what cloaked ships do will be removed from the game. Personally, I love stalking an unsuspecting victim, waiting for the right moment. And yes, that CAN take hours.

Initially, I didn't oppose the concept but, the more I think about it, yeah, I'd have to say NO. Cloaked ships already make some pretty substantial trade offs to achieve the purpose for which they exist.

Don't ban me, bro!

Soulpirate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-01-18 19:04:31 UTC
This sounds a lot more complicated than just removing local.
cpu939
Blueprint Haus
Blades of Grass
#24 - 2012-01-18 19:17:58 UTC
your in space i should be able to find you even if it takes time then kill you.

the word here is time 1-2 hours of scaning
TR4D3R4LT
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-01-18 19:42:23 UTC
tikktokk tokkzikk wrote:
We used more than 5 minutes going from warpin to a fitting spot for attack. They would know we were there and ruin our chances to attack AND survive (suicide bombing will still work).

Other than that, it sounds like an amazing idea!


I wrote long and mathematical post, then forum ate it.

Long story short;

300 m/s covop bomber creates 3 mil km3 sphere from point a (pinpoint location). Decloaker has sphere of 65 km3 where he decloaks peeps. Likelihood of success? Nil unless the covop was stationary.

In same scenario, the covop moves 70 km towards target, 20 km in 90 degree angle from that trajectory. All that in the first 5 minutes, being in a spot where enemy who lands at the spot the sb started and burns directly at target would still not decloak the sbomber.

Further in said scenario, the enemy has pinpointed the 70 km worth of direct burn and the 20 km degree turn. However active sbomber pilot has again had 90 km worth of traveling to use to throw off the tracker who again has 3 mil km3 of area where the sbomber "might be." Ofc if the sbomber warps to SS midway and spends time there, things get even more interesting.

So for active sbomber pilots the only negative impact is that after 5 minutes of being "in grid" enemy will know that you were in said grid 5 minutes ago.

But the benefits for AFK cloakers? Two types, those who orbit and those who move in straight line, the ones who sit still die to direct pinpoint warpins.

AFK cloaker who moves in orbit can be determined by 3 "pinpoints" that seem to form a circle, with that it's easy to either check the distance to object the person is orbiting and take ceptor/just sit and wait for the afker to finish his orbit as he will return to spot a.

Direct line moving afk cloaker? Once you have a, b and c as locations "where the ship was" you can just take faster ship and burn in direct line determined by those spots, you'll catch him.

Cloaking macros without covop cloaks that move slowly? Will die horribly, truly horribly unless they logoff/start to warp between SS's.

This ofc requires eve to start keeping score where cloaking ships were x minutes ago, which increases server db load, hence CCP will most likely implement something that will be more horrible (provides direct warpin to cloaked ship/makes it targetable in grid.)
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-01-18 19:43:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Here are some concepts I've just thought of:

Cloak-hunter

    [1] Is it able to cloak or not?

    [a] If it can't cloak then the cloaky only need move away from it.

    [b]If it can cloak then how does it uncloak a cloaky? Or does it just call in a blob. Do we really want more blob warfare? See #4


    [2] Can it find ships on-grid or both off/on grid?

    [a] Doesn't really matter here. Any cloaker worth their salt is just going to macro up their movements if they're wanting to be afk anyway.


    [3] Will the cloak-hunter have the DPS to successfully attack a cloaker?

    [a] If so and assuming it can cloak then we have a new class of more capable cloakies that will become everyone's preferred cloaky ship. After all, the pilot will now be able to see and avoid other cloaky cloak-hunters more easily and have the same or more DPS.

    [b] If so and assuming it can't cloak then the cloaker just moves to avoid the cloak-hunter effectively rendering it useless at worst, mostly ineffective at best.


    [4] Can it decloak a cloaker?

    [a] If yes then I assume it'll be able to grab and hold a cloaker before he can get away.

    [b] If yes, assuming the above, does it have the firepower and tank to defend itself?

    [c] If yes, then see 3a.

    [d] If no, then what's the point? Maybe it'll just call in a blob? Do we need more blob warfare?


    [5] Can cloak hunters see other cloak hunters?

    [a] If yes, then see 3a.

    [b] If no, then see 3a and we have a stalemate that effectively renders this entire exercise moot.


Not really seeing, with current mechanics, a place for a cloak-hunter. Of course, to make it useful CCP will have to re-work current cloaking mechanics which means breaking it to make the hunter work.

Don't ban me, bro!

Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
OnlyFleets.
#27 - 2012-01-18 19:49:23 UTC
TR4D3R4LT wrote:
tikktokk tokkzikk wrote:
We used more than 5 minutes going from warpin to a fitting spot for attack. They would know we were there and ruin our chances to attack AND survive (suicide bombing will still work).

Other than that, it sounds like an amazing idea!


I wrote long and mathematical post, then forum ate it.

Long story short;

300 m/s covop bomber creates 3 mil km3 sphere from point a (pinpoint location). Decloaker has sphere of 65 km3 where he decloaks peeps. Likelihood of success? Nil unless the covop was stationary.

In same scenario, the covop moves 70 km towards target, 20 km in 90 degree angle from that trajectory. All that in the first 5 minutes, being in a spot where enemy who lands at the spot the sb started and burns directly at target would still not decloak the sbomber.

Further in said scenario, the enemy has pinpointed the 70 km worth of direct burn and the 20 km degree turn. However active sbomber pilot has again had 90 km worth of traveling to use to throw off the tracker who again has 3 mil km3 of area where the sbomber "might be." Ofc if the sbomber warps to SS midway and spends time there, things get even more interesting.

So for active sbomber pilots the only negative impact is that after 5 minutes of being "in grid" enemy will know that you were in said grid 5 minutes ago.

But the benefits for AFK cloakers? Two types, those who orbit and those who move in straight line, the ones who sit still die to direct pinpoint warpins.

AFK cloaker who moves in orbit can be determined by 3 "pinpoints" that seem to form a circle, with that it's easy to either check the distance to object the person is orbiting and take ceptor/just sit and wait for the afker to finish his orbit as he will return to spot a.

Direct line moving afk cloaker? Once you have a, b and c as locations "where the ship was" you can just take faster ship and burn in direct line determined by those spots, you'll catch him.

Cloaking macros without covop cloaks that move slowly? Will die horribly, truly horribly unless they logoff/start to warp between SS's.

This ofc requires eve to start keeping score where cloaking ships were x minutes ago, which increases server db load, hence CCP will most likely implement something that will be more horrible (provides direct warpin to cloaked ship/makes it targetable in grid.)


They don't need to know where on grid we are, just that we are there. The moment they see the cloaked ship was here 5 min ago message, they'll reorganize their fleet to easily tackle and kill any bombers that decloaks.

What a bomber do is wait for the enemies to relax and do some kind of error. If they get remainded every 5th minute that someone is there hunting them, that will never happend.

Also highlight + ctrl c your post before posting ^^
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#28 - 2012-01-18 20:03:17 UTC
It took them long enough in my opinion...

Even though I was saying his before the CSM meeting...(by 1 day!)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=498441#post498441
TR4D3R4LT
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-01-18 20:06:59 UTC
tikktokk tokkzikk wrote:
They don't need to know where on grid we are, just that we are there. The moment they see the cloaked ship was here 5 min ago message, they'll reorganize their fleet to easily tackle and kill any bombers that decloaks.

What a bomber do is wait for the enemies to relax and do some kind of error. If they get remainded every 5th minute that someone is there hunting them, that will never happend.

Also highlight + ctrl c your post before posting ^^


I would tbh prefer CCP to fix their forums so that they wont eat forum posts.

As for enemy changing it's composition, then you've achieved one point, you've managed to change enemy into posture that you'll be able to field effective counter against. Yes, it requires you to not be solo and instead have friends who will come in ships designed to kill fleets that have prepared to snatch the sbomber.

Sure, it will somewhat nerf to solo bomber action against gate blobs but in a same way if the change is done via scan probes instead of dedicated new ship, the solo bombers will have ton of new targets when they can start probing down to the SS jumping, cloaking ratters in null sec. Lose some gain some kinda deal.

The trouble lies in envisioning system that prevents afk cloaking being 100% foolproof(as they are now) but still keeps non-afk cloaking as viable as it is now.
Alara IonStorm
#30 - 2012-01-18 20:10:09 UTC
Mag's wrote:
FeralShadow wrote:
then me stating what 30000 other people have already stated isn't going to get through to you.

oh yea I need to add figures.... 60,000 people know this.

The other 210000 just don't care.
Hannibalx
#31 - 2012-01-18 20:22:00 UTC
The whole idea is stupid. AFK cloakers are only a danger to afk players i.e. bots. I suppose weak minded null bears might find the presence of an afk cloaker demoralizing, but so what? The current mechanics are not broken. Leave it alone already.
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
OnlyFleets.
#32 - 2012-01-18 20:29:09 UTC
off topic:
"Yet another idea floated up, the option of buying things from the EVE Store with PLEX. While not a trivial thing to accomplish, this idea was well received by CCP."

I posted a suggestion to link aurum to the eve store (real life items) on the old forum. Sadly, people are stupid and said "lolol u st0pid ccp no give out fr33 st0f". Atleast CSM/CCP are smart enough to understand how that would work.

So we still have a chance for a MT free EVE, YAY!
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#33 - 2012-01-18 20:38:21 UTC  |  Edited by: arcca jeth
well guess we can say that all power bocs with SOV will support this. I actually saw an item a few years back (out of game) that was like a Interdiction bubble but was designed to decloak ships within a certain radius. CCP should hold off on this change until they have a clear plan on what they want to do with low/null intel/local. AFK cloakers are great for intel and everyone has a right to said intel. Best thing about it, is everyone does with this system as it is now. What one corp can do, another can do to them (and probably does).

Covert ops are used for intel and have no other function other than gathering information.

My issue is if CCP does implement a ship or module that can do this, you will then have people complaining about how it is NOT EFFECTIVE ENOUGH and WHHAAA WHAAA its too time consuming WHAA WHAA Roll then CCP will take those tears and make it (over time) easier and easier to find these ships, doing away completely with a ROLE that was being used as intended, intel.

someone in the feedback thread compared it to SWG/NGE and as that is an extreme comparison, that is the result when you start talking about DOING AWAY WITH ROLES in a RPG!!
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#34 - 2012-01-18 20:40:02 UTC
Hannibalx wrote:
The whole idea is stupid. AFK cloakers are only a danger to afk players i.e. bots. I suppose weak minded null bears might find the presence of an afk cloaker demoralizing, but so what? The current mechanics are not broken. Leave it alone already.


the AFK cloakers are there to remind people who think they are safe in blue space are in fact, not safe and should keep on their toes.
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
#35 - 2012-01-18 21:21:29 UTC
Hannibalx wrote:
The whole idea is stupid. AFK cloakers are only a danger to afk players i.e. bots.


So ...an AFK (person away from keyboard) in a cloaked ship is only dangerous to a piece of software automating a series of tasks in Eve ... Do you understand how stupid that statement is as I believe bots don't care or are not programmed to give a damn if they are being observed ? Next, caller we will be answering the question of a falling tree making a sound if no-one is there to hear it.


The only thing I believe we should have in Eve is a counter to a threat. Perceived or real. Something that can be used to nullify it. The AFK cloaker is one area that we do not have this and I would ask that a counter be developed. Whether that is a timer that disables the cloak after a long period of inactivity or a cloak needing a fuel - I would like to see a counter made

I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking

Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
OnlyFleets.
#36 - 2012-01-18 21:36:13 UTC
Klandi wrote:
Hannibalx wrote:
The whole idea is stupid. AFK cloakers are only a danger to afk players i.e. bots.


So ...an AFK (person away from keyboard) in a cloaked ship is only dangerous to a piece of software automating a series of tasks in Eve ... Do you understand how stupid that statement is as I believe bots don't care or are not programmed to give a damn if they are being observed ? Next, caller we will be answering the question of a falling tree making a sound if no-one is there to hear it.


The only thing I believe we should have in Eve is a counter to a threat. Perceived or real. Something that can be used to nullify it. The AFK cloaker is one area that we do not have this and I would ask that a counter be developed. Whether that is a timer that disables the cloak after a long period of inactivity or a cloak needing a fuel - I would like to see a counter made


Most bots are programed to log off if naut or red enters local. Thus, a 23.5/7 AFK cloaker blocks a system for bots.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2012-01-18 21:36:38 UTC
arcca jeth wrote:
Hannibalx wrote:
The whole idea is stupid. AFK cloakers are only a danger to afk players i.e. bots. I suppose weak minded null bears might find the presence of an afk cloaker demoralizing, but so what? The current mechanics are not broken. Leave it alone already.


the AFK cloakers are there to remind people who think they are safe in blue space are in fact, not safe and should keep on their toes.

The cloak hunter is there to remind people who think they are safe with their cloak modules on are in fact, not safe and should keep on their toes.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2012-01-18 21:37:57 UTC
tikktokk tokkzikk wrote:
Most bots are programed to log off if naut or red enters local.
or, of course, cloak in a safe
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#39 - 2012-01-18 21:42:00 UTC
Ships (Destroyers) that are able to detect invisible predators lurking in the deep?

Sounds like the happy time is nearing its end.

risk in eve, who would have thought it!

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]

Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2012-01-18 21:45:03 UTC
I dont know how I feel about this.

On one hand, EVE doesnt need to be any safer than what it already is and this will certainly make Null sec safer.

One the other hand, it take takes no skill what so ever to warp to a safe spot in enemy territory, set cloak then be afk as you spend the next 8 hours at work or running errands and call it Psychological Warfare.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB