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Is CSM ok?

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Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#1 - 2016-11-08 09:00:28 UTC
I know CSM folks are doing a lot of work. As for me, I dont feel the results of this work though - it doesnt improve my experience in communication with CCP. Alright, no big deal, must be my personal issue. That's what I though until I stumbled on this: CSM XI - Weeks 25 & 26 Summary - EVE Vegas Edition
This is the review on a couple of pretty eventful weeks, written by two of the most active CSM members in collaboration, placed on a site that is considered a pinnacle of communication. And it has a total of 8 (eight) comments, of which only 4 are legit posts from the general player base, with the rest being: 2 answers from CMS members, 1 ****post, and 1 answer from a CSM member to a ****post.

I dont know what's going on, but in my terms this situation can not be described as "normal".
CSM, blink twice if you need help.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#2 - 2016-11-08 12:53:16 UTC
Well, I'm a bit ill. Vegas has done my lungs in. (yay, concrud. not as powerful as concord, but still bad)

There is https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=486400&find=unread ?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#3 - 2016-11-08 13:24:52 UTC
Get well, Steve.
There are a lot of strange links all over the place, for example this is the CSM "news" site: http://csm.eveonline.com/
The freshest news there is is like 6 month old.
And tbh I think this is a part of the problem. You are on all those media: here, at reddit, twitter, slack, discord, blogs, podcasts and Bob knows where else.
Jin'taan
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#4 - 2016-11-23 09:45:26 UTC
There are problems with the CSM - Player relationship, but it seems to be just on the willingness to communicate publically. I can't speak for anyone else, but I know I get 2-3 pokes a day on Slack, Discord, Twitter, Eve mail, email, even in game chats, wherever people find it easiest to communicate on things to think about as a CSM member and to pass onto CCP. Reddit isn't an ideal place to do this as a lot of people don't want to be judged for their opinion, which I completely understand. However I also reach out and ask things in return, when conversations with either CCP or within the CSM go to a subject I lack expertise in. It's a feedback system.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#5 - 2016-11-25 14:09:05 UTC
But people are willing to communicate publicly. Look at those threadnoughts spawning after CCP devblogs. Well - I am, that's for sure. I'd rather have my ideas criticized and if I'm proven wrong - so be it, but if I am supported that gives me an even stronger initiative to push it further. Unfortunately, that's not possible. CSM does not participate in discussions in those threadnoughts, and does not have its own platform either.

Example: recently I stumbled upon a wardec round table. I have no idea how I found it, but it was great. It was though-provoking, and I have something to say now that I've watched it. But how? Leave a comment on youtube?
Bobmon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2016-11-25 17:07:09 UTC
be sure to check out our twitter too, its a very good place to stay up to date. Other then that I think we all are daily logged in on about a thousend channels (discord/slack etc.) so be sure to poke us.

After Ascension we will continue to talk about new topics with CCP about the future of EVE and when we find out these topics, we will likely host some Townhalls etc. again.

So more to come is what I say!

@BobmonEVE - BOBMON FOR CSM 12
Kenji Noguchi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2016-12-09 19:02:12 UTC
Slack? Discord?
I thought this was the official channel to communicate with CSM.
If you're all actually using Slack and Discord and Reddit instead, at least state that somewhere here so those of us who only use this forum know somehow.
I feel like talking alone whenever I come here.
Even a "suggestion noted" post would suffice. But not even that.
The official stance is that we should get to slack? What should you ACTUALLY do when you have a suggestion or idea if you want to be taken into consideration?
Bobmon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2016-12-10 00:43:23 UTC
Yes this is the official one but very impracticale as its much easier to discuss a topic in a slack/discord channel

@BobmonEVE - BOBMON FOR CSM 12
Jin'taan
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#9 - 2016-12-10 12:59:42 UTC
Kenji Noguchi wrote:
Slack? Discord?
I thought this was the official channel to communicate with CSM.
If you're all actually using Slack and Discord and Reddit instead, at least state that somewhere here so those of us who only use this forum know somehow.
I feel like talking alone whenever I come here.
Even a "suggestion noted" post would suffice. But not even that.
The official stance is that we should get to slack? What should you ACTUALLY do when you have a suggestion or idea if you want to be taken into consideration?


If you have a suggestion, the best thing to do is to ask yourself "What problem am I solving with this solution." that is way more likely to be looked at by CCP and the CSM in a way that will lead to action on the issue. We can't know every little niggle that people run into in their experience, so getting down to brass tacks of what's bad before you lay on what would be good is a massive aid to us when presenting things to CCP.

All of our Twitter handles are here and beyond that, mailing us ingame tends to have pretty fast response times. We're also all active to some degree on Tweetfleet Slack & the EvE Reddit. I'm also available on what feels like a million Discords, and have my own YouTube channel, though currently I don't have any CSM content on there. I also have a podcast that I co-host (Declarations of War) and I guest appear on many others (such as Talking in Stations, The Neocom & The Open Comms Show) and try and get on any others I can.

I am looking to provide a better 'contact us' page at the start of next year, as it's become obvious to me just how outdated it is to list names + Twitter handles, when we're active on so many platforms. I think us just saying "You can reach us here, here, here, here" would help mitigate a lot of these concerns really. I also debated having a CSM Discord that was open, but that came with the issues of us having to manually invite shitloads of people, which I didn't think was worthwile.

We are also expecting to have our next Quarterly Review out next Saturday, which will help shine a light on some of the more secretive members of the CSM.
Mordachai
Eternal Darkness.
The Initiative.
#10 - 2016-12-14 08:56:48 UTC
Jin'taan wrote:
Kenji Noguchi wrote:
Slack? Discord?
I thought this was the official channel to communicate with CSM.
If you're all actually using Slack and Discord and Reddit instead, at least state that somewhere here so those of us who only use this forum know somehow.
I feel like talking alone whenever I come here.
Even a "suggestion noted" post would suffice. But not even that.
The official stance is that we should get to slack? What should you ACTUALLY do when you have a suggestion or idea if you want to be taken into consideration?


If you have a suggestion, the best thing to do is to ask yourself "What problem am I solving with this solution." that is way more likely to be looked at by CCP and the CSM in a way that will lead to action on the issue. We can't know every little niggle that people run into in their experience, so getting down to brass tacks of what's bad before you lay on what would be good is a massive aid to us when presenting things to CCP.

All of our Twitter handles are here and beyond that, mailing us ingame tends to have pretty fast response times. We're also all active to some degree on Tweetfleet Slack & the EvE Reddit. I'm also available on what feels like a million Discords, and have my own YouTube channel, though currently I don't have any CSM content on there. I also have a podcast that I co-host (Declarations of War) and I guest appear on many others (such as Talking in Stations, The Neocom & The Open Comms Show) and try and get on any others I can.

I am looking to provide a better 'contact us' page at the start of next year, as it's become obvious to me just how outdated it is to list names + Twitter handles, when we're active on so many platforms. I think us just saying "You can reach us here, here, here, here" would help mitigate a lot of these concerns really. I also debated having a CSM Discord that was open, but that came with the issues of us having to manually invite shitloads of people, which I didn't think was worthwile.

We are also expecting to have our next Quarterly Review out next Saturday, which will help shine a light on some of the more secretive members of the CSM.


o.O what the heck is "slack" ? and why the hell always this god damn twitter stuff some people dont use that, discord is just awfull when joining lots of "channels" or such, reddit ihmo is just a gigantic wall of text and bores me to death.

How about just using the forum section dedicated to the CSM ? not only replying to "where is csm and are they doing anything ?" type of posts... how about reply to actual ideas posts ?
i mean for the "non tech savvy people" the easiest and most logical way to go on about eve stuff is yes the eve forum....
Jin'taan
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#11 - 2016-12-14 18:18:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jin'taan
Mordachai wrote:
Jin'taan wrote:
Kenji Noguchi wrote:
Slack? Discord?
I thought this was the official channel to communicate with CSM.
If you're all actually using Slack and Discord and Reddit instead, at least state that somewhere here so those of us who only use this forum know somehow.
I feel like talking alone whenever I come here.
Even a "suggestion noted" post would suffice. But not even that.
The official stance is that we should get to slack? What should you ACTUALLY do when you have a suggestion or idea if you want to be taken into consideration?


If you have a suggestion, the best thing to do is to ask yourself "What problem am I solving with this solution." that is way more likely to be looked at by CCP and the CSM in a way that will lead to action on the issue. We can't know every little niggle that people run into in their experience, so getting down to brass tacks of what's bad before you lay on what would be good is a massive aid to us when presenting things to CCP.

All of our Twitter handles are here and beyond that, mailing us ingame tends to have pretty fast response times. We're also all active to some degree on Tweetfleet Slack & the EvE Reddit. I'm also available on what feels like a million Discords, and have my own YouTube channel, though currently I don't have any CSM content on there. I also have a podcast that I co-host (Declarations of War) and I guest appear on many others (such as Talking in Stations, The Neocom & The Open Comms Show) and try and get on any others I can.

I am looking to provide a better 'contact us' page at the start of next year, as it's become obvious to me just how outdated it is to list names + Twitter handles, when we're active on so many platforms. I think us just saying "You can reach us here, here, here, here" would help mitigate a lot of these concerns really. I also debated having a CSM Discord that was open, but that came with the issues of us having to manually invite shitloads of people, which I didn't think was worthwile.

We are also expecting to have our next Quarterly Review out next Saturday, which will help shine a light on some of the more secretive members of the CSM.


o.O what the heck is "slack" ? and why the hell always this god damn twitter stuff some people dont use that, discord is just awfull when joining lots of "channels" or such, reddit ihmo is just a gigantic wall of text and bores me to death.

How about just using the forum section dedicated to the CSM ? not only replying to "where is csm and are they doing anything ?" type of posts... how about reply to actual ideas posts ?
i mean for the "non tech savvy people" the easiest and most logical way to go on about eve stuff is yes the eve forum....


The vast majority of players do not use the forums, hence why we do not use them as often as other platforms, where a greater majority of active players are.

We do not respond (in general) to idea posts, as we do not have power to introduce them into the development process of CCP and as such. helping to 'develop' them isn't something that is useful beyond giving false hope to people that it's something we're going to be able to 'force through'. We pass them along to CCP if we think they are good and relatively simple to implement for their consideration, or bring up what we see as the core problem of them. At the end of the day, neither you, nor we are game designers. We are a focus group that identifies key problems with areas of the game and brings them to CCP's attention. Yes, that may come with some suggested solutions in hand, but it's not often that the solutions (as we intend them) are implemented. That is simply not how the CSM operates.

As I said earlier on in the thread, I provide biweekly updates on what we're talking about, what we've brought up, and anything else that is relevant to the CSM. Beyond breaking the NDA, that is effectively the limit of what I am able to communicate to the public, as the majority of what else we do is discussing in progress works with CCP devs, which we cannot talk about for obvious reasons.
Mordachai
Eternal Darkness.
The Initiative.
#12 - 2016-12-15 07:43:09 UTC
Jin'taan wrote:

The vast majority of players do not use the forums, hence why we do not use them as often as other platforms, where a greater majority of active players are.

We do not respond (in general) to idea posts, as we do not have power to introduce them into the development process of CCP and as such. helping to 'develop' them isn't something that is useful beyond giving false hope to people that it's something we're going to be able to 'force through'. We pass them along to CCP if we think they are good and relatively simple to implement for their consideration, or bring up what we see as the core problem of them. At the end of the day, neither you, nor we are game designers. We are a focus group that identifies key problems with areas of the game and brings them to CCP's attention. Yes, that may come with some suggested solutions in hand, but it's not often that the solutions (as we intend them) are implemented. That is simply not how the CSM operates.

As I said earlier on in the thread, I provide biweekly updates on what we're talking about, what we've brought up, and anything else that is relevant to the CSM. Beyond breaking the NDA, that is effectively the limit of what I am able to communicate to the public, as the majority of what else we do is discussing in progress works with CCP devs, which we cannot talk about for obvious reasons.


So basically what you're saying is you're ignoring the part of us that actually use the official forums ? *slow clap*
Jin'taan
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#13 - 2016-12-15 09:57:03 UTC
Mordachai wrote:
Jin'taan wrote:

The vast majority of players do not use the forums, hence why we do not use them as often as other platforms, where a greater majority of active players are.

We do not respond (in general) to idea posts, as we do not have power to introduce them into the development process of CCP and as such. helping to 'develop' them isn't something that is useful beyond giving false hope to people that it's something we're going to be able to 'force through'. We pass them along to CCP if we think they are good and relatively simple to implement for their consideration, or bring up what we see as the core problem of them. At the end of the day, neither you, nor we are game designers. We are a focus group that identifies key problems with areas of the game and brings them to CCP's attention. Yes, that may come with some suggested solutions in hand, but it's not often that the solutions (as we intend them) are implemented. That is simply not how the CSM operates.

As I said earlier on in the thread, I provide biweekly updates on what we're talking about, what we've brought up, and anything else that is relevant to the CSM. Beyond breaking the NDA, that is effectively the limit of what I am able to communicate to the public, as the majority of what else we do is discussing in progress works with CCP devs, which we cannot talk about for obvious reasons.


So basically what you're saying is you're ignoring the part of us that actually use the official forums ? *slow clap*


Yup I'm definitely 100% ignoring you and that is a fair assessment of what I said.
The Judge
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2016-12-15 10:42:04 UTC
I appreciate that these forums are the way you would like to communicate with the CSM, but I disagree with the point that these are the "official" way to communicate with us. The "official" way to communicate with the CSM is whatever way works for both a CSM member and the individual player. For example, I read the CSM section of the forums (among others) daily to see what players are discussing. That's the value I find here. Players, discussing. I find it nearly impossible to have a conversation on the forums simply due to the reply delay and format, and conversations are how I, as a person, communicate best. I also strongly believe in letting opinions evolve organically and without an overly biased input, which is why I try to comment as little as possible.

Sure, I'd love to see these forums used more overall. I think it would be beneficial to the community and for the players that are highly invested in the CSM. I don't think though that anyone, including CSM members, should be forced into a medium that doesn't work for them. If I've said it once I've said it a million times... we use A LOT of different platforms to talk to the community. Reddit, Discord, Skype, Teamspeak, Mumble, Evemail, Forums, Email, Twitter, Slack... hell... some EVE players I get valuable feedback out of even have my cellphone number! I would never ask anyone to tie themselves to one platform, so I expect nobody to ask me to do the same.

I'd like to reiterate what Jin'taan said earlier in this thread. The CSM are not junior developers, and while we have easy access to CCP and EVE's developers, we are more of a "sounding board" or "filter". I like to think of us as "unpaid volunteer consultants". We sign an NDA so that CCP as a company (and business) can discuss upcoming changes with us openly and comfortably while soliciting feedback they might not otherwise have access to. Not that this was in question within this thread specifically, but I like to keep that message out there as often as possible so there is no misinterpretation by the player base or voters.

Lastly, you're not being ignored. The fact that you have had multiple CSM's reply to you I would think is clear evidence of that. I don't feel like attacking CSM's because they don't communicate the way you expect or feel they should is fair. If you would like to have a conversation with me specifically feel free to send me an evemail or add me on any of the platforms I actively use to converse with players.

CSM XII Member and CSM XI Permanent Attendee

Diplomat for Circle-Of-Two

@_TheJudge on Twitter

thejudge@csm.eve.com
Alexander Bor
Polaris Global
#15 - 2017-02-28 21:48:28 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
I know CSM folks are doing a lot of work. As for me, I dont feel the results of this work though - it doesnt improve my experience in communication with CCP. Alright, no big deal, must be my personal issue. That's what I though until I stumbled on this: CSM XI - Weeks 25 & 26 Summary - EVE Vegas Edition
This is the review on a couple of pretty eventful weeks, written by two of the most active CSM members in collaboration, placed on a site that is considered a pinnacle of communication. And it has a total of 8 (eight) comments, of which only 4 are legit posts from the general player base, with the rest being: 2 answers from CMS members, 1 ****post, and 1 answer from a CSM member to a ****post.

I dont know what's going on, but in my terms this situation can not be described as "normal".
CSM, blink twice if you need help.


The thing you've described is just another symptom. The disease is a CSM itself.