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Needed changes to compensate/balance the buddylist change.

Author
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#21 - 2016-11-05 15:13:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Lord Razpataz wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:

You are limiting it to 1 system of effect. Do you know how many systems have supers and titans in them?

To even move a super or titan, each of the groups would have to first go and put down these structures in each system they are going to jump into, otherwise as soon as they move, watchlist notification.

That proves alone would provide a nice beacon of hey, supers/titans are going to jump here.

When you look at all the groups that use supers and titans, almost all of lowsec and nullsec would have to have a defensive structure, for mechanics that otherwise have nothing at all to do with lowsec or nullsec.

The logistics of that alone is a nightmare and not at all reasonable.

Just geo-restrict the watchlist functionality to highsec only and the whole issue disappears because capitals can't enter highsec.


You still haven't read the OP..
I'll quote it for you..
Quote:
* Alternatively have different sizes of defensive structure. Small for system protection, medium include surrounding systems and large for constellations that would only be able to anchored in 0.0 systems. The structures can't be anchored within another structures area of effect. (cant overlap)


I have read the OP. You clearly don't understand the distribution of supers and capitals, nor how their movement works. This proposal doesn't work.

Why even force mechanics on null and low that have no interest to them? That's just crazy, on top of not understanding how and where supers and titans are located and/or move.
Lord Razpataz
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#22 - 2016-11-05 15:31:14 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Lord Razpataz wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:

You are limiting it to 1 system of effect. Do you know how many systems have supers and titans in them?

To even move a super or titan, each of the groups would have to first go and put down these structures in each system they are going to jump into, otherwise as soon as they move, watchlist notification.

That proves alone would provide a nice beacon of hey, supers/titans are going to jump here.

When you look at all the groups that use supers and titans, almost all of lowsec and nullsec would have to have a defensive structure, for mechanics that otherwise have nothing at all to do with lowsec or nullsec.

The logistics of that alone is a nightmare and not at all reasonable.

Just geo-restrict the watchlist functionality to highsec only and the whole issue disappears because capitals can't enter highsec.


You still haven't read the OP..
I'll quote it for you..
Quote:
* Alternatively have different sizes of defensive structure. Small for system protection, medium include surrounding systems and large for constellations that would only be able to anchored in 0.0 systems. The structures can't be anchored within another structures area of effect. (cant overlap)


I have read the OP. You clearly don't understand the distribution of supers and capitals, nor how their movement works. This proposal doesn't work.

Why even force mechanics on null and low that have no interest to them? That's just crazy, on top of not understanding how and where supers and titans are located and/or move.


Well.. I the first to admit that I dont have full knowlegde about all playstyles in eve, but I'm trying to find some middleground.
Its like people telling me "why cant you just use locators" to hunt corporations in highsec.
I'm ok with locators and watchlist just working in highsec.. but I got yelled at by other 0.0 guys who hunts supers for suggestion it.

Because.. as it is now.. if you know about the workarounds to see if someone is online, the watchlist change did only just affect highsec. Hunting just a couple of targets are still doable.

Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#23 - 2016-11-05 16:46:51 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Lord Razpataz wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:

You are limiting it to 1 system of effect. Do you know how many systems have supers and titans in them?

To even move a super or titan, each of the groups would have to first go and put down these structures in each system they are going to jump into, otherwise as soon as they move, watchlist notification.

That proves alone would provide a nice beacon of hey, supers/titans are going to jump here.

When you look at all the groups that use supers and titans, almost all of lowsec and nullsec would have to have a defensive structure, for mechanics that otherwise have nothing at all to do with lowsec or nullsec.

The logistics of that alone is a nightmare and not at all reasonable.

Just geo-restrict the watchlist functionality to highsec only and the whole issue disappears because capitals can't enter highsec.


You still haven't read the OP..
I'll quote it for you..
Quote:
* Alternatively have different sizes of defensive structure. Small for system protection, medium include surrounding systems and large for constellations that would only be able to anchored in 0.0 systems. The structures can't be anchored within another structures area of effect. (cant overlap)


I have read the OP. You clearly don't understand the distribution of supers and capitals, nor how their movement works. This proposal doesn't work.

Why even force mechanics on null and low that have no interest to them? That's just crazy, on top of not understanding how and where supers and titans are located and/or move.


If people flew **** they could afford to replace this wouldn't be an issue.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#24 - 2016-11-06 00:29:53 UTC
I agree with Scipio, this change basically completely undoes the watchlist changes, and on top of that gives wardeccing corps structures to monitor that they can camp for even more kills.

It's nothing but a buff to ganking/HS wardeccing. Whether that's a good or bad thing is up for debate, but that is what this idea pushes.

Either way, cap hunting in LS/null needs to be addressed. Keep this in HS only and I really couldn't care. And keep locators out of WHs.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#25 - 2016-11-06 00:34:05 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Keep this in HS only and I really couldn't care.

thats exactly how we felt about the "buddy" list but here we are trying to unfuck our region regardless
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#26 - 2016-11-06 01:22:46 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Keep this in HS only and I really couldn't care.

thats exactly how we felt about the "buddy" list but here we are trying to unfuck our region regardless

Yeah and I feel sorry for what effect the change had on highsec.

I think it was an ill conceived change, where either the devs didn't really understand the use of watchlists and/or had such a narrow focus on one issue, that they didn't consider flow on effects. Possibly both.

When I look at this proposal, it has the potential to essentially undo the change that was made, in which case I think a neater proposal is to request the old system be returned. I don't see CCP agreeing to that though.

So if CCP won't bring back the old system, then no new system should provide intel on pilots in lowsec or nullsec - just so there is no issue around intel on supers and titans logging in.

I think the current proposal is ok. It should just be limited to highsec though and take the loss that you wont know about someone who is in low or null.

The alternative would be to suggest this system, but instead of a defensive structure, allow individual players to pay a fee to not be on the watchlist in a limited number of systems. I don't know it that is any better, but it does remove all the structures that would be needed in lowsec and nullsec, when wardecs don't really mean much there anyway.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#27 - 2016-11-06 16:44:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Oh where to start.

Lord Razpataz wrote:
First allowing watchlist to work IF a wardec was active.

If your concern is the defenders then give this to the defenders only. We see through your wolf in sheeps' clothing disguise, you want this simply because it would make your job as the hunter easier.

Lord Razpataz wrote:
Then introduce a new structure for corp and alliances, a defensive one*.
This would be a rather expensive structure you have to anchor in space, visible on scan and not be anchored within 1000km of anything.
The structure would have the same ehp and reinforce timers as a poco. Its area of effect would cover just the system it’s anchored in and online it would take 24h.
Having this structure anchored and online while at war will "shield" you from being visible on watchlist and locates within its area of effect.

Emphasis added to the important section above.
Congratulations on screwing the small groups you say you want to help. If this structure is going to be expensive then it will only benefit the larger groups by offering them immunity to your newly revised watch list. And I thought you really cared about giving those small groups some assistance.

Lord Razpataz wrote:
With these suggested changes in place it would open up the possibility to hunt larger groups in highsec and give Mercs and wardeccers

This combined with my answer above are perhaps the most important reasons not to make your requested changes. They benefit the war dec groups and the largest of the defenders more than they help everyone else.

Lord Razpataz wrote:
As a merc.. your not really just looking for a random kill, your looking for the person you are paid to kill. Doing that "in a game with hundreds of thousands of people across thousands of systems?" when you have to go trough just one corp with lets say 100 people it's a BIG task.

God forbid that you should actually have to "work" to find your targets, when you can simply ask CCP to hand them to you on a platter. Your right I do not care about how much time and effort it takes, you choose to be a hunter and that means you choose everything that goes along with the game play style.
Mortlake
Somalian Coast Guard Authority
#28 - 2016-11-06 17:03:04 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:


Some words.



Coming across a little too much like a frustrated mumsnet subscriber to be taken seriously. I can almost envisage your trembling, marigold clad hands dripping soap suds all over your keyboard. Don't you have some flowers to arrange?

Sometimes you hit the bar and sometimes the bar hits you...

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#29 - 2016-11-06 17:43:14 UTC
Mortlake wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:


Some words.



Coming across a little too much like a frustrated mumsnet subscriber to be taken seriously. I can almost envisage your trembling, marigold clad hands dripping soap suds all over your keyboard. Don't you have some flowers to arrange?

Oh my ****ing god mort, you nailed it.
This is who I have in my head right now.
Mortlake
Somalian Coast Guard Authority
#30 - 2016-11-06 18:14:11 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Mortlake wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:


Some words.



Coming across a little too much like a frustrated mumsnet subscriber to be taken seriously. I can almost envisage your trembling, marigold clad hands dripping soap suds all over your keyboard. Don't you have some flowers to arrange?

Oh my ****ing god mort, you nailed it.
This is who I have in my head right now.


At least Hyacinth has a valid point from time to time.

Sometimes you hit the bar and sometimes the bar hits you...

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#31 - 2016-11-06 18:21:51 UTC
Mortlake wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Mortlake wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:


Some words.



Coming across a little too much like a frustrated mumsnet subscriber to be taken seriously. I can almost envisage your trembling, marigold clad hands dripping soap suds all over your keyboard. Don't you have some flowers to arrange?

Oh my ****ing god mort, you nailed it.
This is who I have in my head right now.


At least Hyacinth has a valid point from time to time.

Yeah but much like muggins here, it's usually her outraged correspondence Gilded China letter opener...
DSpite Culhach
#32 - 2016-11-07 02:42:43 UTC
Few thoughts first then some ideas.

I personally don't agree with the fact that simply because you have decided to call yourself a Merc, then CCP needs to "step up" and make NEW mechanics specifically suited to help you.

Being a Merc is "player driven", it's not a "class" in an MMO with specific underlying mechanics for it, it's players deciding they simply want to hunt players, so if they want to do that, then they should not be handed better tools then the prey or tools that are better then things already possible. The old watchlist allowed a player the ability to tell the instant another person logged in account from anywhere in the universe ... you could map a person complete weekly timeline in the game by just recording a popup message.

On the other hand, the current system is a bit stupid. For example, the game already shows me everyone in local.

I could sit in a system with a cloaked ALT, with an overview set to only show anyone I marked as -10 flashy (so it stays clear the rest of the time) then video record a 24 hour session at 1 frame every 10 seconds or so, then just play it back at very high speed and still get an exact timeline of all targets (if any) and times they stay in system. Repeat with new system till you get what you need.

Fair bit of annoying work? Sure, You could even automate the process by running a program on the video stream to do that for you, and I can't even see it being "an exploit", if you are doing it on non-real time video stream that does not even require the EVE client to be actively running, although CCP might frown on "AFK recording" maybe ...? Not sure here.

My point is this:

If we can see Local, so can the stations, so can NPC's in those stations, so why when you ask them "have you seen this guy?" do they give us stupid level info? Why can't they print partial Local logs from their own Corp owned records of the stations they belong to for example, and say "this name/ID was visible in system at such-and-such".

Maybe let me bribe someone for logs, or hack the station computers for activity logs ... I mean, if something needs to be added, make players "play the game" to do it. If the targets have a problem with that, make them hack to clear their logs, or bribe someone to suppress the logs.

Nothing should be free or easy for EITHER side. Effort should be required to hide, and effort should be required to hunt. It's simply the matter of finding a way that makes it fun for everyone.

The side that makes the least effort is the one that suffers. Is this not the EVE way?


I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.

Xrend
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2016-11-07 05:09:31 UTC
So.... Let me tell you how this would play out.... Seeing as the OP is in a "PVP" corp.... (straight face I promise) Let's say he wanted to evict someone from W-space, with no local this requires him or his buddies to be online and doing real intel.... UNLESS.... He wardec's the target corp from an alt corp. This alt corp just so happens to have a watchlist of the entire target corp. Scouting problem solved.

OR.... You could just do your own intel, and not need some silly watchlist. to tell you when people are online....
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#34 - 2016-11-07 06:54:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Fair point when it comes to being a merc. I've only spent maybe a month in HS in EVE, so I don't necessarily see the appeal of it. I would imagine a merc's lifestyle is 90% research and stalking, 10% actual fighting. That makes sense from a logical point of view.


EDIT: forum ate my entire post, let's try again.

What you just described is what basically happened prior to the removal of the watchlist. The vast majority of your time was spent running locator agents, scouting with a neutral alt and positioning characters. Currently if you try and do this the vast majority of your time ends up being spent investigating players who aren't online and may not have been online for long periods of time, which renders the entire process totally ineffective.

As a result the mercenary groups that are most likely to produce kills in a war are not the ones who dedicate the most time and effort to intelligence gathering, rather they're the ones who have the most camping coverage.

There's no better illustration of this than the fact that a month prior to the removal of the watchlist Tora conducted a purge of trade hub campers from the Marmite Collective with the specific purpose of making the alliance more active and focused on seeking out targets, subsequently his entire alliance almost failscaded and was forced to revert back to camping post-change. Vendetta Mercenary Group, however, which embraced these same trade hub camping types is now the dominant mercenary alliance in highec.

I personally don't care too much that this is the outcome, however many people often decry tradehub camping as a type of gameplay, yet support changes that have lead it to become the only viable form of war-based gameplay other than shooting structures.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#35 - 2016-11-07 15:33:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Mortlake wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:


Some words.



Coming across a little too much like a frustrated mumsnet subscriber to be taken seriously. I can almost envisage your trembling, marigold clad hands dripping soap suds all over your keyboard. Don't you have some flowers to arrange?

Thank you for even bothering to read what I post, and for taking your valuable time time to respond.
Personally I do not care what you think by the way this is a forum for the discussion of ideas to change the game we all pay to play and my opinions are as valid as yours even if you do not like them.

You are correct though I am rather frustrated at the moment. I am frustrated by the double standards that you high sec PvP types have on full display in virtually every topic I read. Carebear complains about the game being hard and asks for change and they are essentially told to get tough or get out. PvP type complains about the gaming being hard and all of you rush in to support the idea for changes to make your life easier. The saddest part of this is that you high sec PvP types are so blinded by your own desires that you simply cannot see the double standard. I guess this should not surprise me considering that most high sec PvP players consider themselves to be the single most important group of players in the game.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#36 - 2016-11-07 17:14:40 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
EDIT: forum ate my entire post, let's try again.

What you just described is what basically happened prior to the removal of the watchlist. The vast majority of your time was spent running locator agents, scouting with a neutral alt and positioning characters. Currently if you try and do this the vast majority of your time ends up being spent investigating players who aren't online and may not have been online for long periods of time, which renders the entire process totally ineffective.

As a result the mercenary groups that are most likely to produce kills in a war are not the ones who dedicate the most time and effort to intelligence gathering, rather they're the ones who have the most camping coverage.

There's no better illustration of this than the fact that a month prior to the removal of the watchlist Tora conducted a purge of trade hub campers from the Marmite Collective with the specific purpose of making the alliance more active and focused on seeking out targets, subsequently his entire alliance almost failscaded and was forced to revert back to camping post-change. Vendetta Mercenary Group, however, which embraced these same trade hub camping types is now the dominant mercenary alliance in highec.

I personally don't care too much that this is the outcome, however many people often decry tradehub camping as a type of gameplay, yet support changes that have lead it to become the only viable form of war-based gameplay other than shooting structures.


I think the watchlist changes were definitely needed, but locator agents should return the same message if someone is offline that they do if they are currently in a wormhole.
Iain Cariaba
#37 - 2016-11-07 18:58:02 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Mortlake wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:


Some words.



Coming across a little too much like a frustrated mumsnet subscriber to be taken seriously. I can almost envisage your trembling, marigold clad hands dripping soap suds all over your keyboard. Don't you have some flowers to arrange?

Thank you for even bothering to read what I post, and for taking your valuable time time to respond.
Personally I do not care what you think by the way this is a forum for the discussion of ideas to change the game we all pay to play and my opinions are as valid as yours even if you do not like them.

You are correct though I am rather frustrated at the moment. I am frustrated by the double standards that you high sec PvP types have on full display in virtually every topic I read. Carebear complains about the game being hard and asks for change and they are essentially told to get tough or get out. PvP type complains about the gaming being hard and all of you rush in to support the idea for changes to make your life easier. The saddest part of this is that you high sec PvP types are so blinded by your own desires that you simply cannot see the double standard. I guess this should not surprise me considering that most high sec PvP players consider themselves to be the single most important group of players in the game.

The double standard here is not the one you think it is.

Highsec PvP has been repeatedly and brutally nerfed over the years, while highsec carebears are now allowed to play in what is effectively total safety.

Carebears complain about the game being hard, and how it needs to be made even easier for them.
PvPers here are complaining about a change that turned their play style into little more than hub camping, and want a slight adjustment to it to simply see if they're wasting their online time hunting an offline target.

The truly sad part about this is that it's the PvPers who adapt to the changes to try and maintain their play style, while the carebears simply bleat for more nerfs.

And honestly, doesn't everyone think they're the single most important group of players in the game? The super pilots sure do think so. After all, it was their whining that got the watchlist nerfed to begin with.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#38 - 2016-11-07 19:27:02 UTC
I'll also point out that Mr's Bucket here has been complaining about the hub humping war spammers alongside the rest,
Those changes are directly(though not entirely) responsible for the massive uptick in that and that this praposal and my praposal are both aimed at facilitating highsec entitys in moving away from this.

As for double standards, we are all expected to defend our beliefs here,
something both myself and raz have been doing visibly for six months now.
Every single time I have seen this conversation I've been told to HTFU just like anyone else,
the difference is we have willing and patient enough to articulate exactly what we want without losing our ****.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#39 - 2016-11-07 21:17:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
In this situation what highsec PVPers Hing TFU actually looks like is just switching over to trade hub camping.

And then many of the people who said to HTFU go on to complain about all the trade hub camping. It's not like this was even remotely unexpected either, it was predicted, and the concern articulated, the instant the buddy list was announced.

What was the expectation there?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#40 - 2016-11-07 21:28:38 UTC
Last February was the prediction
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