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Wardec rebalance reviewed

Author
Aatch Bland
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#41 - 2016-11-04 02:39:31 UTC
Honestly, the only thing I'd say is wrong with the current war-dec system is how the fee is calculated. It's cheaper to dec a small corp than a large one, and large corps have more ISK to bring to bear to start with. If the fee was based on the difference in sizes, it might help balance things out. As it stands now, it's far more profitable to wardec a small corp than it is a big one, since small corps are cheaper to wardec and have fewer members with which to fight back.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#42 - 2016-11-04 02:46:48 UTC
And if you were to watch the roundtable you would see that the Merc community (or those of us present) unilaterally agree with you about this
Aatch Bland
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2016-11-04 02:58:55 UTC
Heh, I read the article linked earlier and you're right. I'm surprised that the cost, at the very least, hasn't been changed given that it seem fairly obvious.
Honzas Krutas
We Break Things
#44 - 2016-11-04 09:11:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Honzas Krutas
Hi as a new player I could add some new thoughts about the wardeck issue that those two groups arguing here might not see.

My personal experinces were these:

- huge number of groups and solo players ganking new players in highsec, they are picking up t1 industrials, they do not care about obvious botting freighters on autopilot route (hows that it still flies CPP?) and all of that outside the war

- EVE basically forces new player to join a new corporation and all over the starting areas are mobile depots aiming for new players to join a corporation. Nowhere is written that then you can get war anytime and newbies are a target no.1 in any war because they lacks knowledge of how to recognize they are in warl, with whom etc.

- players declaring a wars/ganking are years and miles stronger by skills and experience than their target. I have yet to see a wardeck between two similarly strong corporations. So far it was always bigger/older/more experienced corp declaring a war to small/new/non pvp corps only

- ganking corps are declaring multiple wars (probably max) in order to get higher chance of finding a war target in the area where they gank. They do not care about fighting, they just want to gank a lonely target in highsec

- ganking corps are joining into multiple wars as ally in order to avoid wardeck limits and payments, again for same purpose

- majority of the wardecked corp players are either sitting in station till war ends or they leave corporation

- if a structure is packed up, there is no winner or loser in war and majority of wars ends with concord "length safety mechanism"


The problem here is that there are no safety mechanism. Yes eve is unique in a way its harsh world where all kind of things are possible, but does it mean the current system is perfect? Hardly.

I don't know how it should work, thing is that eve is so different that mechanisms from other games would probably not worked here at all.

However starting with notifying player that entering a corporation will then expose him to be part of the war an PvP and not "forcing new player into corporations" by opportunity system would be a good start.

Other games usually have multiple safety systems such as that too big corporation cannot declare war to small corporation (varios methods of calculating that, not just per number of members). However thats not going to work here since basically every big corp has a detached small corps operating under different terms or in certain region.

And I am not sure what does fighting for some objective as proposed by OP helps here. It will still come to the fact that the one who declares a war knows in advance they are stronger/smarter and are going to win. So essentially nothing would have changed in most of the wardecks, the weaker side would not fight.

But maybe its a good start. There would be less wardecks and it might help against the kind of war my corp is in atm where 2 players are camping our hg sectors in cloak whole day preventing us to mine and waiting for lonely mining/industry to appear in a time of day where we won't outnumber them. Once we group up they just use cloak in their safe spot and goes afk. Very funny.

Modding is fun. Please add more customization into EVE!

Revis Owen
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#45 - 2016-11-04 11:54:29 UTC
Honzas Krutas wrote:
2 players are camping our hg sectors in cloak whole day preventing us to mine


This is the point where I lol'd and concluded you are in a corp with "leadership" that has absolutely no competence. RUN!

A real corp with halfway competent leadership would be using the tools available to all to easily deal with the situation you describe.

Agent of the New Order http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.

My Dream
Hideaway Alts
The Hideaway.
#46 - 2016-11-04 12:14:42 UTC
Revis Owen wrote:
Honzas Krutas wrote:
2 players are camping our hg sectors in cloak whole day preventing us to mine


This is the point where I lol'd and concluded you are in a corp with "leadership" that has absolutely no competence. RUN!

A real corp with halfway competent leadership would be using the tools available to all to easily deal with the situation you describe.


i actually agree with you on this . theres to many guys with no leadership skills recruiting newbros with no plans for pilot safety . all it leads to is the new player having a bad experiance of eve and quiting before theve even really started

id highly recommend him and his friends join EVE UNIVERSITY so the can learn game in a competant enviroment
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#47 - 2016-11-04 13:02:45 UTC
My Dream wrote:
Revis Owen wrote:
Honzas Krutas wrote:
2 players are camping our hg sectors in cloak whole day preventing us to mine


This is the point where I lol'd and concluded you are in a corp with "leadership" that has absolutely no competence. RUN!

A real corp with halfway competent leadership would be using the tools available to all to easily deal with the situation you describe.


i actually agree with you on this . theres to many guys with no leadership skills recruiting newbros with no plans for pilot safety . all it leads to is the new player having a bad experiance of eve and quiting before theve even really started

id highly recommend him and his friends join EVE UNIVERSITY so the can learn game in a competant enviroment

The colloquial name for a corporation like this is "Punching Bag".

Definitely a crappy place for an newbro, get out ASAP.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#48 - 2016-11-04 13:54:18 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
EVE is a PvP game, and that means at ALL times.

Again with this lie that EvE is a "PvP" (insert traditional shoot each other in the face definition) game.
EvE is a sandbox that has many play styles and yes PvP is one of those play styles. In fact given that most items in EvE are player made and that CCP is pushing the game even further in that direction one could argue that resource procurement and manufacturing are the single most important play styles in EvE because without them you would have no ships to fly and no weapons and ammo to shoot people with.

John Yatolile wrote:
nothing in eve needs enjoyment for both sides

News flash this is a game we ALL play for enjoyment, when there is no enjoyment in it people stop playing.
Wondering if you read the article in this link, it mentions that there needs to be an element of enjoyment for both sides in the war dec equation. I have not had time to sit and watch the video yet but one would surmise that this mention of an element of enjoyment came from the video of the warr dec round table, if that is correct then even the collected group of CSM and players involved would disagree with you on the enjoyment for both sides aspect of war decs.

But hey if you want to continually see the rosters of the corps you waste ISK to war dec reduced to zero because of dodging tactics hey I am OK with that I am perhaps one of EvE's greatest war dec dodgers, I have had lots of practice and frustrated a lot of war dec players along the way. You simply cannot imagine how much fun it is to un-dock a blingy mission ship right in full view of those who just a few minutes ago were your aggressors in a war dec knowing that there is nothing they can do that will not get them destroyed by Concord and knowing full well that because NPC corp you cannot be war decced. On the other hand if you want to actually see some war in your war decs I suggest that a change of attitude may be in order.



Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#49 - 2016-11-04 14:34:26 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
EVE is a PvP game, and that means at ALL times.

Again with this lie that EvE is a "PvP" (insert traditional shoot each other in the face definition) game.
EvE is a sandbox that has many play styles and yes PvP is one of those play styles. In fact given that most items in EvE are player made and that CCP is pushing the game even further in that direction one could argue that resource procurement and manufacturing are the single most important play styles in EvE because without them you would have no ships to fly and no weapons and ammo to shoot people with.

John Yatolile wrote:
nothing in eve needs enjoyment for both sides

News flash this is a game we ALL play for enjoyment, when there is no enjoyment in it people stop playing.
Wondering if you read the article in this link, it mentions that there needs to be an element of enjoyment for both sides in the war dec equation. I have not had time to sit and watch the video yet but one would surmise that this mention of an element of enjoyment came from the video of the warr dec round table, if that is correct then even the collected group of CSM and players involved would disagree with you on the enjoyment for both sides aspect of war decs.

But hey if you want to continually see the rosters of the corps you waste ISK to war dec reduced to zero because of dodging tactics hey I am OK with that I am perhaps one of EvE's greatest war dec dodgers, I have had lots of practice and frustrated a lot of war dec players along the way. You simply cannot imagine how much fun it is to un-dock a blingy mission ship right in full view of those who just a few minutes ago were your aggressors in a war dec knowing that there is nothing they can do that will not get them destroyed by Concord and knowing full well that because NPC corp you cannot be war decced. On the other hand if you want to actually see some war in your war decs I suggest that a change of attitude may be in order.





Asterothi (the author of the article) dosent live or PvP in highsec so ... Watch the roundtable.
John Yatolile
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#50 - 2016-11-04 15:51:00 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:

News flash this is a game we ALL play for enjoyment, when there is no enjoyment in it people stop playing.
Wondering if you read the article in this link, it mentions that there needs to be an element of enjoyment for both sides in the war dec equation. I have not had time to sit and watch the video yet but one would surmise that this mention of an element of enjoyment came from the video of the warr dec round table, if that is correct then even the collected group of CSM and players involved would disagree with you on the enjoyment for both sides aspect of war decs.

But hey if you want to continually see the rosters of the corps you waste ISK to war dec reduced to zero because of dodging tactics hey I am OK with that I am perhaps one of EvE's greatest war dec dodgers, I have had lots of practice and frustrated a lot of war dec players along the way. You simply cannot imagine how much fun it is to un-dock a blingy mission ship right in full view of those who just a few minutes ago were your aggressors in a war dec knowing that there is nothing they can do that will not get them destroyed by Concord and knowing full well that because NPC corp you cannot be war decced. On the other hand if you want to actually see some war in your war decs I suggest that a change of attitude may be in order.

I just play it to murder and get murdered in null sec
I don't see why you have to force others to lower their enjoyment just so you can have yours
Also I don't see why undocking in a mission ship after dodging feels good, it means they won and were able to inconvenience you
I don't need war in war decs, I get my pvp elsewhere
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#51 - 2016-11-04 18:28:25 UTC
Lann Shahni wrote:
1. i do not propose an end to war in high, just rebalancingto make it more fun and enging, giving both sides a reason to fitgh
Except carebear corps still won't fight. Even if every war-dec nerf proposed gets in, carebears will complain about war-decs, will still complain that this forced PvP is ruining their game, and still wouldn't come out to fight.

Lann Shahni wrote:
3. eve is sandbox, with pvp elements, not a PVP sandbox, and there should be palce for every one play, PVP and PVE alike!
I think this misunderstanding is your problem. Eve is very fundamentally a PvP-focused game. Even some of the most central PvE activities, like incursions and market trading have some themes of PvP (in the case of incursions, contesting sites). You would probably argue that the recent Purity of the Throne event, for example, was entirely PvE, except I've gotten some good PvP out of it. Conflict is the main driving force in this game; without PvP there wouldn't be much of a reason for any of the PvE activities like industry.

Lann Shahni wrote:
I simple thought, a lot the high sec "PVP" players say they are doing for the PVP content!
why not go low/nul or WH?
Each area of space is its own different animal and has its own style of PvP. I prefer wormholes, myself. Some people love low-sec's style of PvP and can't stand null, for example. Some people like the different brand of PvP that high-sec provides. I can imagine a lack of capital ships is one feature some people like.

Several war-dec nerfs have already been implemented (removal of the watch-list being the latest), and that has forced high-sec war-dec entities into methods of play that is less fun. Removal of watch-list has forced many entities to camp on trade hubs and war-dec anything they can find, rather than going out to hunt targets. Nerfs in the past have forced smaller war-dec corps to consolidate into larger corporations and alliances (that are less possible for smaller groups to fight). This behavior isn't because they're risk-averse, it's so that they can get any targets at all. The past has shown that more nerfs only make the problem worse.
Minerva Arbosa
Spatial Forces
Warped Intentions
#52 - 2016-11-04 20:50:16 UTC
Last I heard locator agents still work pretty well on tracking down targets and such. So does doing your own research on where players might be before initiating war decs.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#53 - 2016-11-04 22:36:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Minerva Arbosa wrote:
Last I heard locator agents still work pretty well on tracking down targets and such. So does doing your own research on where players might be before initiating war decs.

Although I'm not a merc, I hope I understand the impact of the watchlist changes enough to be able to explain why it isn't so simple as that.

Prior to the watch list changes, made to reduce intel about capital pilots in low and null, the wardec/merc community used locator agents all the time. When a watchlist notification showed a target online, they ran locates to find them so they could go hunt them down.

The combination of knowing a character was online, with an ability to narrow down their location provided rich intel that helped encourage small groups that actually hunted their enemy.

However, locator agents work whether a character is logged in or not. Once the watchlist changes occurred, the use of the same approach resulted in hunters chasing ghosts who weren't even online.

They can still know where they are, but why go 20 jumps after someone just to see that they aren't even playing the game?

The resulting optimal wardec strategy that has resulted is bad. Why continue to hunt ghosts when instead you can just hug a trade hub and blanket wardec everything? Let the content come to you.

For many mercs that approach sux, so a lot of the true hunters stopped and either play much less or do different things now. Others just joined the other wardec groups resulting in larger Alliances that need to wardec even more to ensure enough content for their members.

At the end of the day, mercs and wardeccers are just playing the game for fun like the rest of us; and they choose to play it their way, just as we choose to play it our way. There is nothing wrong with any of those choices.

Wardecs will always exist in the game. So making proposals that just further encourage the blob approach works against us all. We think that by proposing structures that it will give us something to aim for in a war. The reality is, we'll just be facing an even larger attacker and still unable to end the war. They'll attack smaller groups that they know they can always defeat.

Whinging and whining will continue and further nerfs will be requested. Nothing will change.

So for those of us that don't wardec, it's actually in our best interest to make proposals that support the ability of small groups and mercs to play effectively.

Accepting that wardecs will always exist provides a much better opportunity to think about what type of enemy would you prefer to face: the big blob, or smaller groups?

At least for me, I think we should be making proposals that encourage small groups more than big blobs. Give the mercs and small groups a rich environment that encourages their existence and we'll also have more opportunities to attack them directly as defenders.
DSpite Culhach
#54 - 2016-11-05 01:57:04 UTC
Playing EVE has basically screwed up my view into other games permanently, and probably in a good way.

I play Warframe quite a bit, because I can play it in "small bites" as these days my attention span is lacking, and you would not believe how much petty complaining goes on in that game, a game may I add, totally free, and that is totally non competitive in any way, but they still feel entitled about everything.

EVE revolves around making other people lose more stuff then you. Regardless of what "measures" you choose to put in place, it does not change that fact, and people will just find new ways to workaround your trying to stop them.

Even if Wardeccing was made impossible in Hisec, dedicated people would just move to infiltrating Corps and just stealing all your stuff that way. It is just the EVE way.

I agree somewhat that Wardeccing is being used as a one-trick pony in many cases just so some Corps can keep their own Hisec safety and kill at will, but I honestly don't know how to make that more manageable.

I kind of dislike the current system in the same way I dislike the bounty system, where basically it has to be examined from the point of view that people with too much time on their hands will just find way to abuse it. Heck, look at how Faction Warfare was manipulated once to be just an ISK printing machine.


I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.

Azazel Shardani
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2016-11-05 05:27:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Azazel Shardani
This is a Pvp game, we have to accept it, period. We can easily agree that no matter what limitations are put in place, they will be easily abused. If you put a cap on current war declarations, what stops you to collaborate with others to fill the queue to stop others from declaring on you. nothing! You will be able to avoid Pvp by getting friendlies to keep you safe.

Slavery is natural, embrace it. We Amarr aprove this message.

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#56 - 2016-11-05 06:13:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
unilaterally

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

But really, the only people who ever though the cost scaling system was a good idea were special interest groups that are large and wanted it to be as expensive as possible to declare war on them.

Specifically it was the former CEO of E-UNI who was a CSM member at the time when the inferno war declaration changes were being designed and under whose leadership E-UNI had been engaging in activities to artificially inflate the cost of declaring war on them. There's no doubt in my mind that Kelduum Revaan is personally responsible for the existence of this mechanic which neither the people declaring war, nor the vast majority of the people on whom war tends to be declared think is fair or reasonable.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#57 - 2016-11-05 06:44:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Minerva Arbosa wrote:
Last I heard locator agents still work pretty well on tracking down targets and such. So does doing your own research on where players might be before initiating war decs.


They do still work, the difficulty is that there is no way of knowing who it is you need to run a locator agent on and that in high security space, where people can move with near total freedom and were there's no real need to be in any particular place at any particular time.

Additionally if you get to a system which the locator said the individual is in and they aren't there the only way to verify if they moved or logged off is to run another locator after you arrive and wait for the result and if it indicates another system, move to that system and repeat until you either find them or it tells you they're in the same system as them, but they aren't present in local.

This means that if you're at war with more than a tiny handful of people you will spend hours upon hours scouting individuals who simply are not present in the world at all, which is further exacerbated by the long cooldowns and low availability of locator agents.

You may think "It's not that much worse, is it?" and the answer is yes it is, actually hunting people using locator agents was not a particularly fast process before and was sufficiently a pain in the ass that trade hub campers existed. Now because of the huge amount of time you'll spend chasing characters that may not even have logged in for months a process that would previously have taken 40 minutes will take you 18+ hours.

Locator agents are not a substitute for the watchlist, the watchlist was the reason why locator agents worked at all.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2016-11-05 12:02:29 UTC
The cost element of wars seems arse about face. A wardec is basically bribing CONCORD to ignore aggressive acts. The cost of the wardec should maybe be some fixed cost plus an amount that is a function of the difference between the number of members in the corp.

E.g. a 10 man corp is wardecced by a 100 man corp. The fixed cost is say 50 mil, then another 1 mil per each player the aggressor has more than the defender, so in this example an additional 90 mil. This is effectively paying CONCORDto ignore each member of the corp.

The numbers are just for example, the principle being that a small corp attacking a large corp pays the base cost. A large corp attacking a small corp pays a lot more. Even sized corp wars would pay roughly the base cost.

This would allow small dedicated merc companies to flourish, but also give a corp with mumbers to fight back against such corps.
The allies mechanism would need to go though. If another corp wants to help you they should also wardec the opponent. This makes being an ally a real decision with associated risk and cost.

Potentially tie this to a method for a defender to 'win' and wars would hopefully become more two-sided affairs that all can feel invested in.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#59 - 2016-11-05 13:28:36 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
unilaterally

I don't think that word means what you think it means.
.

Evidently I can't tell the difference between unilaterally and unanimously in the wee hours of the morning.

Damn you vimsy and your literacy!
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#60 - 2016-11-05 14:20:29 UTC
John Yatolile wrote:
I don't see why you have to force others to lower their enjoyment just so you can have yours

Let me re-phrase that for you so that it more accurately conveys the real situation and your real meaning.

As a PvP player my fun is more important that your fun as a PvE player.

Yet another of the tired, old and to be honest ridiculous comments we get from members of the war dec groups.
And one has to wonder if you are so concerned about fun why do you ruin other players ability to have fun by declaring war on them? Oh silly me I forgot you are a PvP player and YOUR fun is more important than those you war dec.

John Yatolile wrote:
Also I don't see why undocking in a mission ship after dodging feels good, it means they won and were able to inconvenience you

No body has EVER inconvenience me in this game and no one EVER WILL, I have to many alts that can do the same thing this character can, alts you could spend decades trying to find but never will.
Mine and the industrial characters and activities of the group of real life friends I fly with are buried under so many layers of alts, alt corps and the use of NPC stations as well as low sec that you and every other war dec player in the game combined will NEVER be able to find them much less disrupt them, so there is no inconvenience there either. And while we go about the things we do unhindered by your useless war decs we do so with the knowledge that it cost you (or someone else) at least 50 mil per week for the privilege of failing miserably at trying to disrupt the things we do for fun and profit.

I did not expect people like you to understand the whole enjoyment of un-docking a blingy mission ship in front of those who had you war decced just a few minutes ago thing. And no they have not inconvenienced me, I am still getting to do EXACTLY what I want to do, not only that but I can do it right in front of them. To be short it is the ultimate f*** you kind of thing, you can try but you cannot affect me or my game play style.

John Yatolile wrote:
I don't need war in war decs, I get my pvp elsewhere

Then one has to ask why do you care what happens to war decs if you do not need them to get your PvP?