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Is covetor actually useful? What difference to retriever or procurer?

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Herateis
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1 - 2016-11-03 01:03:38 UTC
Does it have better yield per minute and if so, how much? If its less than 20%, why bother taking covetor when you have to micromanage it? Does the extra percentage really make much difference over a few hours?
Memphis Baas
#2 - 2016-11-03 01:28:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
EVE math is multiplicative, and the effect of that is that a small % bonus can actually become huge, once you factor in your skills, ship bonus, mining laser quality, mining upgrades, implants, orca boosting, and other bonuses.

So, if you're mining solo, with low mining and astrogeology skills, with T1 mining lasers and no CPU left to install mining upgrades, then a small difference in yield isn't going to amount to much. On the other hand, in a rich asteroid field, with a group with high skills, strip miners with crystals, orca boosts, dedicated haulers, and high grade upgrades, rigs, and implants, the difference can be several million ISK per hour, and thus it becomes worth using whichever ship has the bigger yield for the specific thing you're mining (ore, ice, gas, whatever).

I haven't done the math, and CCP did change the ships recently, so I'm not sure exactly how they compare. But typically, the scenario above is how the game functions.

EDIT: Solo, you should be more worried about being attacked by CODE and other suicide gankers, so use the tanky barge and fittings, rather than the maximum yield barges. The various mining ships are there as OPTIONS for organized high-skill mining operations, or (in the case of the mining frigates) to allow ninja-mining highly-profitable ores or gases in dangerous 0.0 or wormhole space.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2016-11-03 01:49:56 UTC
Like Memphis said everything in this game is situational.

If you are mining deep in blue null sec with full boosts, on large asteroids and with dedicated haulers then you will want the ship with the most potential yield.

If you are solo mining in high sec then you'll want something cheap to replace and with a large ore hold.

You circumstances will dictate which ship is right for a particular situation. No ship in Eve can be considered generically better. Each ship has situations in which it would be the ideal choice and situations where it would be less than ideal.

Generally speaking my experience with mining has lead me to believe that most players focus too much on potential yield numbers from EFT or PYFA and ignore what really matters. Some examples of what I mean:

If you are mining a lot of small asteroids ( like what is typical in high sec ) then the difference between you paying close attention and using a survey scanner and not paying attention can easily be more than 20%. Also even paying close attention you have to be very very good to get much above 90% of potential yield numbers. Switching from one asteroid to another mid cycle can waste a lot of potential "up time" on your mining lazors.

Sitting on one large asteroid for hours on end ( which can happen in null sec ) will get you 100% of potential max with the only exclusion being reload time on crystals if you are using T2 crystals.

Warping back and forth from station or from belt to belt chasing after "better asteroids" will cost you more potential isk in "lazor down time" than any ship, module, or skills are going to make up for.

So if making good isk as a miner is your goal then focus more on finding the right situation than worrying about your ship or skills.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2016-11-03 05:05:12 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
EVE math is multiplicative, and the effect of that is that a small % bonus can actually become huge, once you factor in your skills, ship bonus, mining laser quality, mining upgrades, implants, orca boosting, and other bonuses.




It doesn't work like that. When you get 25% bonus to something from a maxed ship, you're gettin 1.25x more. When you add another 5% bonus for an implant, you're getting 1.3x more, not (1.25 x 5%), which would be 131.25x more.

For the purposes of simplicity, you can actually just add up all the percentage bonuses you're getting and then feed that back to multiplying by the base, whatever it happens to be.

The game is not multiplicative in getting you 131.25% out of base (25%) (5%). Its giving you 130%.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Pendra Tahyan
Doomheim
#5 - 2016-11-03 07:24:55 UTC
For solo mining I would say using anything else then a maximum tank fitted Procurer is a open invitation to gankers.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2016-11-03 08:17:02 UTC
Herateis wrote:
Does it have better yield per minute and if so, how much? If its less than 20%, why bother taking covetor when you have to micromanage it? Does the extra percentage really make much difference over a few hours?


Some people are anal about maximizing profit. In the short term, its not going to make much difference. In the very long run, it will. But if youre worried about this, i would say its not worth the effort, just go procurer or retreiver.
Asmodai Savage
Joe's Saloon
M A R A K U G A
#7 - 2016-11-03 12:54:45 UTC
Herateis wrote:
Does it have better yield per minute and if so, how much? If its less than 20%, why bother taking covetor when you have to micromanage it? Does the extra percentage really make much difference over a few hours?


As others have pointed out it really depends. I find if your mining with others in a mining OP, a covetor is good to have as you can chew up rocks quickly and jet can them out. Like most I run a second account when I mind and that account as an Orca. Right now I mine in H-Sec. What might make me different then other miners is that I am active. Sure I'm not hitting DScan as it's not much of a threat as I know who to look out for.
But I am checking the rocks as they are my target. Normally I pick a belt and check it out first. Then i have a plan. I find it best to pick one end and slowly work through it. If you been mining for a bit, you can pretty much guess by the rock your hitting how many cycles of your strip miner it will take to finish the rock. You can then figure out your time. I watch it closey so i do not waste a whole cycle on low amounts.
If you are in a fleet, your FC might have an order on how things are handled, go by that. Often free for all in a belt during a mining Op leads to lots of wasted cycles. If your going solo, and your active..the covetor is amazing. If your not as active then a Procurer set for tank fit is best way to go.
Once in a while I dip into low sec and since I am not familar with it I use a venture. They can get in and out quickly.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#8 - 2016-11-03 13:48:20 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
EVE math is multiplicative, and the effect of that is that a small % bonus can actually become huge, once you factor in your skills, ship bonus, mining laser quality, mining upgrades, implants, orca boosting, and other bonuses.




It doesn't work like that. When you get 25% bonus to something from a maxed ship, you're gettin 1.25x more. When you add another 5% bonus for an implant, you're getting 1.3x more, not (1.25 x 5%), which would be 131.25x more.

For the purposes of simplicity, you can actually just add up all the percentage bonuses you're getting and then feed that back to multiplying by the base, whatever it happens to be.

The game is not multiplicative in getting you 131.25% out of base (25%) (5%). Its giving you 130%.



Uh, nope?

Eve bonuses are multiplicative.

The only time they're not is with resists (each additional resist applies to the remaining damage) and when you calculate the bonus from a skill (5% per level becomes 25% at level 5. Which you then multiply in)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Memphis Baas
#9 - 2016-11-03 14:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
As an example, let's say you have:

5% per skill level bonus from the ship (and you've trained your skill to 4).
20% bonus from a module.
15% bonus from another module.
10% bonus from each of 2 rigs.
5% bonus from fleet boosting.

Your total bonus is:

1.20 * 1.20 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.05 = 2.10 = 110% bonus.
Not 20 + 20 + 15 + 10 + 10 + 5 = 80% bonus.
Estuary Algaert
Petulant Luddite GmbH
#10 - 2016-11-03 20:40:24 UTC
Herateis wrote:
Does it have better yield per minute and if so, how much? If its less than 20%, why bother taking covetor when you have to micromanage it? Does the extra percentage really make much difference over a few hours?


The differences come down to the effort you wish to expend and if you have support; all the mining ships have a place and a time. In any case your levels of awareness dictates the usefulness of a ship. If you are not paying much attention you run the risk of losing your ship or at the very least being inefficient in managing your mining yield. Doesn't matter how much you can pull in if your lasers are off because the rock was depleted or because you are now ship-less. This can make a nice difference in that ISK/hr calculation because that ore does not magically move from the target to your station of choice or the can you have in space.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2016-11-04 04:51:32 UTC
Asmodai Savage wrote:
Herateis wrote:
Does it have better yield per minute and if so, how much? If its less than 20%, why bother taking covetor when you have to micromanage it? Does the extra percentage really make much difference over a few hours?


As others have pointed out it really depends. I find if your mining with others in a mining OP, a covetor is good to have as you can chew up rocks quickly and jet can them out. Like most I run a second account when I mind and that account as an Orca. Right now I mine in H-Sec. What might make me different then other miners is that I am active. Sure I'm not hitting DScan as it's not much of a threat as I know who to look out for.
But I am checking the rocks as they are my target. Normally I pick a belt and check it out first. Then i have a plan. I find it best to pick one end and slowly work through it. If you been mining for a bit, you can pretty much guess by the rock your hitting how many cycles of your strip miner it will take to finish the rock. You can then figure out your time. I watch it closey so i do not waste a whole cycle on low amounts.
If you are in a fleet, your FC might have an order on how things are handled, go by that. Often free for all in a belt during a mining Op leads to lots of wasted cycles. If your going solo, and your active..the covetor is amazing. If your not as active then a Procurer set for tank fit is best way to go.
Once in a while I dip into low sec and since I am not familar with it I use a venture. They can get in and out quickly.


What I do is mimick real world mining. Strip a roid until theres les than two cycles left and move to the next. It keeps things flowing efficiently and also keeps the belt full of roids that will irritate other people trying to get ore from there.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2016-11-04 05:45:10 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
EVE math is multiplicative, and the effect of that is that a small % bonus can actually become huge, once you factor in your skills, ship bonus, mining laser quality, mining upgrades, implants, orca boosting, and other bonuses.




It doesn't work like that. When you get 25% bonus to something from a maxed ship, you're gettin 1.25x more. When you add another 5% bonus for an implant, you're getting 1.3x more, not (1.25 x 5%), which would be 131.25x more.

For the purposes of simplicity, you can actually just add up all the percentage bonuses you're getting and then feed that back to multiplying by the base, whatever it happens to be.

The game is not multiplicative in getting you 131.25% out of base (25%) (5%). Its giving you 130%.



Uh, nope?

Eve bonuses are multiplicative.

The only time they're not is with resists (each additional resist applies to the remaining damage) and when you calculate the bonus from a skill (5% per level becomes 25% at level 5. Which you then multiply in)



Memphis Baas wrote:
As an example, let's say you have:

5% per skill level bonus from the ship (and you've trained your skill to 4).
20% bonus from a module.
15% bonus from another module.
10% bonus from each of 2 rigs.
5% bonus from fleet boosting.

Your total bonus is:

1.20 * 1.20 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.05 = 2.10 = 110% bonus.
Not 20 + 20 + 15 + 10 + 10 + 5 = 80% bonus.


Do you guys actually have any proof that what you're saying is how the math works?

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#13 - 2016-11-04 07:36:43 UTC
The hull itself has a -25% to cycle time. That's a 33% bonus to yield on its own. So... covetor and hulk have quite a lot of yield.

3/4 of the time for the laser to cycle, 4/3 of the ore in that time. And 4/3 of the wear on your crystals.

A signature :o
Keno Skir
#14 - 2016-11-04 08:38:44 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
EVE math is multiplicative, and the effect of that is that a small % bonus can actually become huge, once you factor in your skills, ship bonus, mining laser quality, mining upgrades, implants, orca boosting, and other bonuses.




It doesn't work like that. When you get 25% bonus to something from a maxed ship, you're gettin 1.25x more. When you add another 5% bonus for an implant, you're getting 1.3x more, not (1.25 x 5%), which would be 131.25x more.

For the purposes of simplicity, you can actually just add up all the percentage bonuses you're getting and then feed that back to multiplying by the base, whatever it happens to be.

The game is not multiplicative in getting you 131.25% out of base (25%) (5%). Its giving you 130%.


You're talking rubbish. I'll never understand how people manage to come on the forums and spout total nonsense with such confidence.

It is how Memphis described. 13kr1d1 you need to do some reading before you try to help anyone else Roll

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2016-11-04 19:10:31 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
EVE math is multiplicative, and the effect of that is that a small % bonus can actually become huge, once you factor in your skills, ship bonus, mining laser quality, mining upgrades, implants, orca boosting, and other bonuses.




It doesn't work like that. When you get 25% bonus to something from a maxed ship, you're gettin 1.25x more. When you add another 5% bonus for an implant, you're getting 1.3x more, not (1.25 x 5%), which would be 131.25x more.

For the purposes of simplicity, you can actually just add up all the percentage bonuses you're getting and then feed that back to multiplying by the base, whatever it happens to be.

The game is not multiplicative in getting you 131.25% out of base (25%) (5%). Its giving you 130%.


You're talking rubbish. I'll never understand how people manage to come on the forums and spout total nonsense with such confidence.

It is how Memphis described. 13kr1d1 you need to do some reading before you try to help anyone else Roll


That was quite a good proof. You've convinced me that I was wrong by showing evidence. /s

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#16 - 2016-11-04 19:33:39 UTC
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Eve_Math

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6415523

Tau's Resistance Calculations:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4879436#post4879436
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5364825#post5364825



So yeah... Memphis is correct in that EVE bonuses are multiplicative, not additive.
There are exceptions of course... but the general rule still stands.

How did you Veterans start?
Velarra
#17 - 2016-11-04 19:54:44 UTC
While your question relates to mining, i would point out that unlike the other ships you mention... One can fit a huge tank on covetor, run a few combat drones as well as a warp disruptor. Flown as a support vessel with a combat fleet of friends, it can lead to some amusing kills.
Memphis Baas
#18 - 2016-11-04 22:37:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
13kr1d1 wrote:
Do you guys actually have any proof that what you're saying is how the math works?
Thanks, Shah.

13kr1d1, the official explanation by CCP was in the Evelopedia, but they removed the Evelopedia, so you'll have to trust that the EVE University Wiki, and other players who posted in the past about this, were / are not lying.

If you don't trust anyone, then you can test it yourself in-game, because cargo expanders don't have a stacking penalty.

So take an industrial, look at its base cargo hold as listed on the market, add Expanded Cargohold II's to the low slots, and figure it out.

Take a Nereus, 2700 m3 base cargo, 5 low slots for Expanded Cargohold II modules (27.5% bonus), and 5% bonus per level from the Gallente Industrial skill. No rigs (make it cheaper to test in-game, as you can sell back everything and get your ISK back).

2700 * 1.25 (industrial skill bonus) * 1.275 * 1.275 * 1.275 * 1.275 * 1.275 = 14498.89 m3 cargo space, or
2700 with (25% + 27.5% + 27.5% + 27.5% + 27.5% + 27.5% bonuses) = 2700 with (162.5% bonus) = 7087.5 m3?
Velarra
#19 - 2016-11-05 04:58:06 UTC
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2016-11-06 17:49:43 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Do you guys actually have any proof that what you're saying is how the math works?
Thanks, Shah.

13kr1d1, the official explanation by CCP was in the Evelopedia, but they removed the Evelopedia, so you'll have to trust that the EVE University Wiki, and other players who posted in the past about this, were / are not lying.

If you don't trust anyone, then you can test it yourself in-game, because cargo expanders don't have a stacking penalty.

So take an industrial, look at its base cargo hold as listed on the market, add Expanded Cargohold II's to the low slots, and figure it out.

Take a Nereus, 2700 m3 base cargo, 5 low slots for Expanded Cargohold II modules (27.5% bonus), and 5% bonus per level from the Gallente Industrial skill. No rigs (make it cheaper to test in-game, as you can sell back everything and get your ISK back).

2700 * 1.25 (industrial skill bonus) * 1.275 * 1.275 * 1.275 * 1.275 * 1.275 = 14498.89 m3 cargo space, or
2700 with (25% + 27.5% + 27.5% + 27.5% + 27.5% + 27.5% bonuses) = 2700 with (162.5% bonus) = 7087.5 m3?


EFT says 11372,

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
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