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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7241 - 2016-10-31 21:12:51 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Ratpack
Reported for Ad-hom.

Sonya
If players wanted to play in wormhole space, they would do that and be there.

Its frankly a pretty unpopular game environment variation.

Way to not understand what I have said many, many times:

"Human error assures that content exists if ships are undocked. The whole problem with afk cloaky camping rotates around it keeping ships docked up and far more secure than they otherwise would be"


What percent of the time spent ratting and mining are your people in standing defense fleets, on comms, and ratting/mining in groups? If you're in null, that should be 100%
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7242 - 2016-10-31 21:18:16 UTC
So for all the anti-AFK cloaking people, how do you know a ship is in local and cloaked?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7243 - 2016-10-31 21:29:26 UTC
Pech
People pay their subscriptions, are able to log on, then when they log on, they see the afk cloaky camper in system.

The way to stop knowing if someone is cloaked in a system is to stop paying subscriiptions and logging on.

Lets go with that fix.

Sonya
People in null sec do not use peak times to PvE. They use it to PvP in epic battles. A lifestyle combining pve and pvp is pretty niche. See wormholes for the fraction of eve's population that appeals to.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#7244 - 2016-10-31 22:17:15 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Pech
People pay their subscriptions, are able to log on, then when they log on, they see the afk cloaky camper in system.

The way to stop knowing if someone is cloaked in a system is to stop paying subscriiptions and logging on.

Lets go with that fix.

Sonya
People in null sec do not use peak times to PvE. They use it to PvP in epic battles. A lifestyle combining pve and pvp is pretty niche. See wormholes for the fraction of eve's population that appeals to.


No, we are not going with that fix because it's going to increase the security in nullsec even more, making ratting 100% safe for most people there. If you want to nerf cloaks, you need to nerf local too.

Wormholer for life.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7245 - 2016-10-31 22:21:32 UTC
Ratpack
Wrong.

The least intrusive change imaginable is a 5 hour timer (using command burst mechanics).

For discussions on how to give players real time information. See a completely different thread.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7246 - 2016-10-31 22:27:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Jerghul wrote:
Pech
People pay their subscriptions, are able to log on, then when they log on, they see the afk cloaky camper in system.

The way to stop knowing if someone is cloaked in a system is to stop paying subscriiptions and logging on.

Lets go with that fix.

Sonya
People in null sec do not use peak times to PvE. They use it to PvP in epic battles. A lifestyle combining pve and pvp is pretty niche. See wormholes for the fraction of eve's population that appeals to.


How do they see them? What part of the game lets them know somebody is in that system with them?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#7247 - 2016-10-31 22:45:18 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Ratpack
Wrong.

The least intrusive change imaginable is a 5 hour timer (using command burst mechanics).

For discussions on how to give players real time information. See a completely different thread.


That change would still increase the safety of nullsec ratters and as my previous link proved, even CCP thinks that nullsec ratters are too safe.

If you want to change cloaks, you NEED to change local as well. They are 2 sides of the same problem. There is no weaseling out of that. AFK-cloaking exists because of intel-channels that local fuel. You need to fix both, not just the other to keep it balanced.

Wormholer for life.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7248 - 2016-10-31 23:32:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerghul
Ratpack
Wrong

More ships in space is unqualifably a good thing for any-sec. It gives more contact points for content.

Afk cloaky camping keeps ships docked. That is the only problem with it. Afk cloaky camping kills content.

The change I suggest makes ships more unsafe because they will undock more. Undocked ships are vulnerable to human error. Docked ships are not vulnerable to anything.

Afk cloaky campers would also become vulnerable to human error. They may at times miss the 5 hour reload.

Yay.

Predation levels do not have to be particularly high to justify small gang roams. I am operating with 3%. 3% of ratters in any system will screw up and not make it to safety.

The content gains come from more ships being undocked at any given time. Which in turn makes small gangs more viable - or even afk cloaky camping more viable (I have explained earlier how an afk cloaky camper can get a lot more kills with the change).

If ratters are safer per isk earned, after deducting ship losses, then bounties need to be tweaked.

Removing local degrades content. It gives less ships in space. Which is specifically the problem with afk cloaky camping. Removing local kills content.

There are better ways to give players real time information than local. But local has to stay until alternate real time information alternatives have been deployed.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7249 - 2016-10-31 23:51:40 UTC
Local kills content too.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7250 - 2016-11-01 00:04:25 UTC
Ratpack
Wrong.

Ships undock because of local. The perception of relative safety is an incredibly important content generator.

Not every undocked ship will get caught, but 3% is good enough if the volume of undocked ships is large enough.

Remove local and you dramatically decrease the number of undocked ships.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#7251 - 2016-11-01 00:19:59 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Ratpack
Wrong.

Ships undock because of local. The perception of relative safety is an incredibly important content generator.

Not every undocked ship will get caught, but 3% is good enough if the volume of undocked ships is large enough.

Remove local and you dramatically decrease the number of undocked ships.


It's not relative safety, It's absolute safety. Local gives away your position BEFORE YOU LOAD GRID.

Wormholer for life.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7252 - 2016-11-01 00:43:11 UTC
Ratpack
Wrong.

Relative safety. Lots of things can still go wrong. And will go wrong. For 3% of the ratting ships. BUT THEY HAVE TO BE UNDOCKED TO SCREW UP.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#7253 - 2016-11-01 01:05:15 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Ratpack
Wrong.

Relative safety. Lots of things can still go wrong. And will go wrong. For 3% of the ratting ships. BUT THEY HAVE TO BE UNDOCKED TO SCREW UP.



If you are awake and can follow these tips, you are safe:

1) Be aligned
2) Watch intel-channels
3) Warp when a neutral/red enters local

Nobody can catch you, you are 100% safe.

Wormholer for life.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7254 - 2016-11-01 01:18:25 UTC
Wander
Nothing went wrong if nothing went wrong you mean.

Relative safety. Lots of things can still go wrong. And will go wrong. For 3% of the ratting ships. BUT THEY HAVE TO BE UNDOCKED TO SCREW UP.

Human error is the premier content provider in nullsec.





Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#7255 - 2016-11-01 01:25:39 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Wander
Nothing went wrong if nothing went wrong you mean.

Relative safety. Lots of things can still go wrong. And will go wrong. For 3% of the ratting ships. BUT THEY HAVE TO BE UNDOCKED TO SCREW UP.

Human error is the premier content provider in nullsec.





And local keeps people docked up as we've already established in this thread. So fix local and we can have more people in space for us to shoot and suddenly there will be less AFK-cloakers as well! It's win-win.

Wormholer for life.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7256 - 2016-11-01 01:31:02 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Pech
People pay their subscriptions, are able to log on, then when they log on, they see the afk cloaky camper in system.

The way to stop knowing if someone is cloaked in a system is to stop paying subscriiptions and logging on.

Lets go with that fix.

Sonya
People in null sec do not use peak times to PvE. They use it to PvP in epic battles. A lifestyle combining pve and pvp is pretty niche. See wormholes for the fraction of eve's population that appeals to.


What percent of the time spent ratting and mining are your people in standing defense fleets, on comms, and ratting/mining in groups? If you're in null, that should be 100%

I'm assuming if you're serious about what you say, you have a rule where you cap out and/or shoot on sight any corp/alliance member who is in null and not in fleet and on comms, yes? Look forward to you ignoring me again.

The only place left in the game for actuall PvP is LS and WHs. Null is carebear heaven as it stands. Get rid of local and that would change for the better.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7257 - 2016-11-01 03:48:52 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Ratpack
Wrong.

Ships undock because of local. The perception of relative safety is an incredibly important content generator.

Not every undocked ship will get caught, but 3% is good enough if the volume of undocked ships is large enough.

Remove local and you dramatically decrease the number of undocked ships.


Ships dock and stay docked because of local too.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7258 - 2016-11-01 07:36:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerghul
Sonya
Cool story, sis

Ratpack
Hence my advocating a slight change to the cloaking mechanism. Its such a elegant fix.

Yay. Me.

Edit
Introducing command burst style charges to cloaks (equivalent of a 5 hour timer). Effects 0-sec on a daily basis. Order of magnitude indicated:

100ds less afk cloaky camped systems (a double digit % reduction)
10s afk cloaky campers killed due to human error (becoming uncloaked after 5 hours and probbed down)
1000nds more ships in space
100ds more ratters (and others) killed.
Higher bounty revenue (double digit % increase)

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#7259 - 2016-11-01 09:54:16 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Sonya
Cool story, sis

Ratpack
Hence my advocating a slight change to the cloaking mechanism. Its such a elegant fix.

Yay. Me.

Edit
Introducing command burst style charges to cloaks (equivalent of a 5 hour timer). Effects 0-sec on a daily basis. Order of magnitude indicated:

100ds less afk cloaky camped systems (a double digit % reduction)
10s afk cloaky campers killed due to human error (becoming uncloaked after 5 hours and probbed down)
1000nds more ships in space
100ds more ratters (and others) killed.
Higher bounty revenue (double digit % increase)


Wrong. As we've already shown in this thread, you have to fix local first before you can touch the cloak.

There is no "elegant fix" for this issue. To get this done right, you have to change the way local works in nullsec by removing the intelligence from the chat-channel and give the players the means to collect that intel for a cost. Only then can we talk about changing the cloak. It was the local use as a intel-channel that lead to the invention of AFK-cloaking.

What you are suggesting is putting a bandaid on a gun-shot to aorta and calling it perfectly fine.

Wormholer for life.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7260 - 2016-11-01 11:42:17 UTC
Ratpack
Wrong.

Nothing in Eve is safer than staying docked up (afk cloaky camping is equally safe come to think of it). Any measure in 0-sec that causes players to undock more often is more dangerous than the current status quo.

This is the best deal afk cloaky camper lovers can get:

"Introducing command burst style charges to cloaks (equivalent of a 5 hour timer). Effects 0-sec on a daily basis. Order of magnitude indicated:

100ds less afk cloaky camped systems (a double digit % reduction)
10s afk cloaky campers killed due to human error (becoming uncloaked after 5 hours and probbed down)
1000nds more ships in space
100ds more ratters (and others) killed.
Higher bounty revenue (double digit % increase)"

Sorry, bro. You lose.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1