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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7221 - 2016-10-31 00:21:55 UTC
loon Mabebu wrote:
Again a timer doesn't stop that. It just asks that you be smart about it. You look at it as a punishment, when really if you are camping well and at your key board you are going to have safes. places you can go to get away from scan or have an optimal moment to be able to uncloak and reset your timer. It does not make it that complicated. It only says play smarter, removes the laziness of it.


Why don't you play smarter in response to AFK cloaking? Why are you asking CCP to let you continue to be lazy in your game play and safer?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#7222 - 2016-10-31 01:52:58 UTC
loon Mabebu wrote:
So you don't like the cycle timer on it then. Ok here is a different one that i can accept, Leave the timer and the charges out of it. How ever you can not light a cyno for a full 60 seconds after coming out of a cloak. That is right, you have to actually either have people already nearby in system to help you or you have to be able to tank in some way for 60 seconds before you can get reinforcements that the other person won't see coming.

I personally would rather have the cycle timer.

crap you could even through in a couple variation with this. No cycle time but you can't hot drop for 60 seconds, or cycle time but you can hot drop instantly. The more i think about this the more i like it.


This again hurts a lot more than afk cloaking.

Your insistance that various other playstyles need to change so that you don't have to speaks volumes. It'd be shocking if it wasn't already typical of null bears.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7223 - 2016-10-31 07:26:19 UTC
Ioon
Just set the opportunity cost for cyno blocking arrays to 0 for a less intrusive change that achieves the same result.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#7224 - 2016-10-31 10:52:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Wander Prian
loon Mabebu wrote:

With the ability to dock now in wh i don't feel as extended cloaks necessary any more. If you are going to be gone from the game longer than a few hours be smart, either dock, log, or find a place out of dscan.


Cloaking in wormhole-space is done because it's the way we hunt and gather intel. Putting limitation on cloak-use would make active gameplay more difficult just so that you can have your carebear-heaven and be 100% safe.

If you go AFK in a wormhole-system, you better be prepaired to be there for a while, since nobody can guarantee that the connection won't close on you.

There is no AFK-cloaking in wormholes as there is no local to give away you are there.

If you don't know what you are talking about, don't use it as a example. You just end up looking like the nullbear you are.

Wormholer for life.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7225 - 2016-10-31 15:27:27 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
ioon
They are not missing the point. They are simply deeply entrenched on the position they hold.

They will abandon the current afk cloaky camping mechanism a few months after CCP pries it out of their cold dead fingers.

They are currently resisting a 5 hour timer that I am speaking of incidentally (the mechanism there is a cloak charge similar to the command burst charges pending) :-).


Give a nerf to local in NS and I will agree to a nerf to cloaking in NS. It's unbalanced to nerf one without addressing the other.

I know you won't agree, given you have no interest in compromise.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7226 - 2016-10-31 15:58:00 UTC
Sonya
Au contraire!

I would happily compromise towards Ioon's idea of a 1 hour timer for afk cloaky camping. Or compromise towards effective systemwide cyno-blockers without meaningful opportunity costs (for example the a ship based deployable module).

Changing null-sec local involves giving players the opportunity to manipulate null-sec gates (which is how it is balanced in wh space). I am not a huge fan of intrusive measures of this type.

And also think changing local is a hugely off-topic discussion tacked on here because...well...the actual thread on changing local has 0 traction (13 odd posts from a year ago if I remember correctly).

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7227 - 2016-10-31 16:11:57 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Sonya
Au contraire!

I would happily compromise towards Ioon's idea of a 1 hour timer for afk cloaky camping. Or compromise towards effective systemwide cyno-blockers without meaningful opportunity costs (for example the a ship based deployable module).

Changing null-sec local involves giving players the opportunity to manipulate null-sec gates (which is how it is balanced in wh space). I am not a huge fan of intrusive measures of this type.

And also think changing local is a hugely off-topic discussion tacked on here because...well...the actual thread on changing local has 0 traction (13 odd posts from a year ago if I remember correctly).


This thread is about changing local. You can't intelligently talk about nerfs to cloaks in sov null without talking about nerfs to local, given local is the only reason people dislike AFK cloaking.

Jerghul, I'm still waiting for you to give me that killmail of when someone killed someone while AFK cloaked.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7228 - 2016-10-31 16:24:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerghul
Sonya
Population statistics in wh-space demonstrate clearly how much people hate no local. Despite the relative safety and convenient revenue mechanisms provided. Changing that in null-sec would require player ability to manipulate gates, system wide cyno blocks without opportunity cost and enhanced revenue opportunities as compensation.

Which is a discussion completely outside the framework of this thread. I will be reporting you for trying to derail the discussion if you persist in claiming this is a "change local" thread.

We are discussing how afk cloaky camping can be curtailed somewhat to limit the negative impact it has on null-sec content.

The least instrusive measure that would have an effect is introducing charges with 5 hour capacity for cloaking modules.

This represents the final compromise. Anything else will be more intrusive and nerf the afk cloaky camping lifestyle much more harshly.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#7229 - 2016-10-31 16:53:12 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Sonya
Population statistics in wh-space demonstrate clearly how much people hate no local. Despite the relative safety and convenient revenue mechanisms provided. Changing that in null-sec would require player ability to manipulate gates, system wide cyno blocks without opportunity cost and enhanced revenue opportunities as compensation.

Which is a discussion completely outside the framework of this thread. I will be reporting you for trying to derail the discussion if you persist in claiming this is a "change local" thread.

We are discussing how afk cloaky camping can be curtailed somewhat to limit the negative impact it has on null-sec content.

The least instrusive measure that would have an effect is introducing charges with 5 hour capacity for cloaking modules.

This represents the final compromise. Anything else will be more intrusive and nerf the afk cloaky camping lifestyle much more harshly.


Wormholes are NOT safe. Any safety you get in them, is due to you MAKING it safe. Wormholers collect their own intelligence, instead of getting it for free. We have scouts that fly around the chain looking for targets, keeping the map up to date, etc. Cloaks are important for our daily use. We don't care if there is someone watching us, that's just content for us. Any time you move in wormhole-space, you fly like there is someone watching you, be prepaired for PVP.

Local is very much part of this conversation as it's the balancing-point for the cloak. The only way you known that there is someone in the system. The early warning you get from local is 100% accurate, operates faster than the person jumping into the system can and most of all, is COMPLETELY FREE.

If you want to nerf cloaks, you need to change local as well.

https://m.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/5a5740/notes_from_the_balancing_roundtable/?utm_source=mweb_redirect&compact=true

"Q: Ratting is too safe, people see you local and dock up. Considered a change of how local showed up?
A: Looking into it. Problem has to do with how chat system works. CCP not happy with local as intelligence system."

See, even CCP agrees with me.

There is no "least intrusive method". If this is going to get changed, it's going to be changed properly, no bad bandaid that makes it even safer to rat in null.

Wormholer for life.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7230 - 2016-10-31 17:09:15 UTC
Ratpack
Its not part of the discussion. No local is a different discussion. A dead discussion as the status of the thread in question indicated.

There are undoubtably better ways to provide individual players with real time intel than local. I agree with CCP there.

The problem with nullsec relates more to lack of players in space than it does to relative safety while in space. Which incidentally is the wormhole issue too. Yay Citadelles for more home comfort.

Human error assures that content exists if ships are undocked. The whole problem with afk cloaky camping rotates around it keeping ships docked up and far more secure than they otherwise would be.

I have nothing against changing isk/tick and linking that to the discussion. Isk lost (in ships) per isk earned is a useful metric.

Afk cloaky camping decreases isk lost (in ships). This is bad.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#7231 - 2016-10-31 17:54:36 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Ratpack
Its not part of the discussion. No local is a different discussion. A dead discussion as the status of the thread in question indicated.

There are undoubtably better ways to provide individual players with real time intel than local. I agree with CCP there.

The problem with nullsec relates more to lack of players in space than it does to relative safety while in space. Which incidentally is the wormhole issue too. Yay Citadelles for more home comfort.

Human error assures that content exists if ships are undocked. The whole problem with afk cloaky camping rotates around it keeping ships docked up and far more secure than they otherwise would be.

I have nothing against changing isk/tick and linking that to the discussion. Isk lost (in ships) per isk earned is a useful metric.

Afk cloaky camping decreases isk lost (in ships). This is bad.



Local IS in the heart of this discussion. It's only part of it, it's why we are here. It's why AFK-cloaking was invented and it's what gives it power.

Wormholer for life.
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7232 - 2016-10-31 19:11:04 UTC
Ratpack
Wrong.

Changing local is literally a dead topic that has been latched onto this thread because people care only to the extent that they hate the idea.

If you want to discuss better ways for players to gain real time information, then be my guest.

In a different thread.

Reported.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#7233 - 2016-10-31 19:13:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
Jerghul wrote:
Sonya
Population statistics in wh-space demonstrate clearly how much people hate no local. Despite the relative safety and convenient revenue mechanisms provided. Changing that in null-sec would require player ability to manipulate gates, system wide cyno blocks without opportunity cost and enhanced revenue opportunities as compensation.

Which is a discussion completely outside the framework of this thread. I will be reporting you for trying to derail the discussion if you persist in claiming this is a "change local" thread.

We are discussing how afk cloaky camping can be curtailed somewhat to limit the negative impact it has on null-sec content.

The least instrusive measure that would have an effect is introducing charges with 5 hour capacity for cloaking modules.

This represents the final compromise. Anything else will be more intrusive and nerf the afk cloaky camping lifestyle much more harshly.


If NS ratters/miners took the precautions that WHers did when ratting and mining, they would never once be caught by hunters. Yet again you prove me right.

You basically said in the past "null ratters need cloaks nerfed because our ratters make mistakes and don't pay attention". Good. Working as intended. Have you ever lived in WHs? No, I'm assuming. Living in WHs purely for making ISK and not for PvP is very much looked down upon. Is the same true for null?

Two questions I've asked you multiple times (funny how you enjoy ignoring them)

1. What percent of the time spent ratting and mining are your people in standing defense fleets, on comms, and ratting/mining in groups? If you're in null, that should be 100%
2. Can you link me the killmail of someone who was killed in null by someone AFK and cloaked?

I'll patiently wait for you to tell me that my suggestions are too "intrusive" since they make people work for their ISK
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7234 - 2016-10-31 19:59:30 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Sonya
Population statistics in wh-space demonstrate clearly how much people hate no local.


So we are told no-local is fine for WH space because you can close up your WH. But now we are told no-local is bad because people feel unsafe.

Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7235 - 2016-10-31 20:02:45 UTC
I love how it is always, "Local is not part of the discussion...."

What a load of Bravo Sierra. In fact, it is so wrong that at this point we can just call it a lie.

After all, how does one know a cloaked ship is in system?

Anyone saying local is not part of the discussion is a liar.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7236 - 2016-10-31 20:18:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerghul
Ratpack
Reported for Ad-hom.

Sonya
If players wanted to play in wormhole space, they would do that and be there.

Its frankly a pretty unpopular game environment variation.

Way to not understand what I have said many, many times:

"Human error assures that content exists if ships are undocked. The whole problem with afk cloaky camping rotates around it keeping ships docked up and far more secure than they otherwise would be"

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#7237 - 2016-10-31 20:25:27 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Ratpack
Reported for Ad-hom.

Sonya
If players wanted to play in wormhole space, they would do that and be there.

Its frankly a pretty unpopular game environment variation.

Way to not understand what I have said many, many times:

"Human error assures that content exists if ships are undocked. The whole problem with afk cloaky camping rotates around it keeping ships docked up and far more secure than they otherwise would be"


Wormhole-space is not for everyone, we know that. It takes a certain type of a player who is willing to risk their ships every day to an unknown attacker.

Nullsec is the kiddy-pool where if you have a pulse, you are safe.

Wormholer for life.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#7238 - 2016-10-31 20:31:08 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
Jerghul wrote:
Ratpack
Reported for Ad-hom.

Sonya
If players wanted to play in wormhole space, they would do that and be there.

Its frankly a pretty unpopular game environment variation.

Way to not understand what I have said many, many times:

"Human error assures that content exists if ships are undocked. The whole problem with afk cloaky camping rotates around it keeping ships docked up and far more secure than they otherwise would be"


Wormhole-space is not for everyone, we know that. It takes a certain type of a player who is willing to risk their ships every day to an unknown attacker.

Nullsec is the kiddy-pool where if you have a pulse, you are safe.


The lack of local is not really the problem. It is the effort required to live in a WH. That is something I just can't do right now for RL reasons. But the fact that players to live there and thrive there without local suggests that removing local, and letting much of that functionality be regained via an in space structure that is vulnerable to attack will not be a problem for NS.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jerghul
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7239 - 2016-10-31 20:50:49 UTC
Ratpack
Discussions on how null sec players best should have real time intelligence is the subject for a different (and very dead) thread.

No one lives in wh space. It is by far the least popular of game environments.

Blocked list: Teckos, Sonya, Wander, Baltec1
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#7240 - 2016-10-31 20:57:56 UTC
Jerghul wrote:
Ratpack
Discussions on how null sec players best should have real time intelligence is the subject for a different (and very dead) thread.

No one lives in wh space. It is by far the least popular of game environments.




Well weird, since I've been living there for about 6 years and I've seen a whole bunch of different corporations and alliances living there. Sure it may not be popular, but saying that nobody lives there is false.

Local IS part of this discussion no matter how much you deny it. Get over it.

Wormholer for life.