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Whatever happened to 1) generics, and 2) battleships?

Author
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2016-10-28 11:24:57 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
Just got shot at by a Vengeance. Again, had to look the thing up to even know what it was. I hit warp-out as soon as I saw the thing (which was within a second), and got a message "warp scramble attempt blah blah" and then BOOM - one shot blew my shields clean off. Luckily I escaped before he got another shot off.

I don't believe I've ever been killed, or shot at, by anything other than tech 2, tech 3, pirate stuff, whatever. You'd think that CCP would notice this and do something about it... unless this is by design? Is this their intent? Does anyone know?



1 shotting your shields or armor off is normal if you have no buffer, because this game is really unbalanced in terms of volley damage to native hp pool on ships.

Whether its 200-900 hp at frigate level, or 5000 hp at battleship level, you can literally volley anyone who doesn't have a buffer. Its kind of dumb.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Asmodai Savage
Moira.
Villore Accords
#22 - 2016-10-28 14:51:43 UTC
As for the OP, it's the same in FW for the frigs. I'm a Tristan pilot and have to run like hell from those Worms and Garmars. Maybe once in a while someone in a T1 shows up and it's a fun fight. I'll stay and fight if I think I got a chance, but often I egress out and wait for them to leave and carry on.
Lately I been doing soem fleet fighting and was amazed to see T1s are heavy use in that, since it's about numbers and the cost. Your going to loose your ship, why loose 70mil frig when you can lose a 10 mil or less frig for the same amount of fun.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#23 - 2016-10-28 15:05:14 UTC
It is called choice, in fact most of the time I do indeed fly exclusively T-1 ships except when I'm doing a specialized task, most people just like uber ships, nothing wrong with having a choice, all you have to do is "remove them" from overview and you won't have to worry about noticing them and you can go on about your daily routine.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#24 - 2016-10-28 15:24:21 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Asmodai Xodai wrote:


Perhaps I should state that GENERIC battleships are the things seen as 'useless,' at least by many. Yes, the tier 2, tier 3, and pirate stuff is used.


Of the top 10 BS by kill count in October, half are T1 (Domi, Geddon, Tempest, Typhoon, and Rokh). The pirate ones are heading up the list, with the Machariel by a massive margin, which is probably attributable to its warp speed bonus, in no small part.

For Combat BC hulls, the killingest ship is the Hurricane, followed by the Gnosis, and the Ferox. The fleet hurricane comes in 4th. There are no pirate BCs, but if we interspersed Command Ships into the list, the Sleipnir would come in 5th, and would be the only one to break the top 10.

Cruisers: The caracal comes in second, and is only a few hundred kills behind the Orthrus. Vexor comes in 7th. This category is fairly dominated by pirate ships.

Tech 3 destroyers, including that Jackdaw, are getting a good whack with the nerf bat pretty soon, here

Asmodai Xodai wrote:

Just got shot at by a Vengeance. Again, had to look the thing up to even know what it was.


I don't really know what to say to this. That's just an assault frigate, and it has probably been around since, I dunno, 2004? They're in a bad place right now because T3Ds are just better. They're pretty mundane, as ships go.


Quote:
Which brings me to battleships. Back when I used to play, these were things people aspired to sit in and fly. Heck, it was my dream, my life's ambition, to fly some big fat battleship bristling with all kinds of firepower. Now, everybody keeps telling me to stay away from battleships, that they suck, nobody flies them, etc. It's like WHAT?!?! Are you serious?


Your character has only been around since 2013. Battleships weren't particularly hot **** even back then, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. There has never been a shortage of new players who don't understand the game, yet, wanting to fly battleships because BIGGER = BETTER! Still exists today. I have a character in a corp where a fairly new player plexed his way into a blingy navy raven not all that long ago (which Roll ).

They're good at what they do. They warp at the speed of smell, and if you're looking for casual PvP, you'll probably get blobbed because you're too slow to avoid it. If you can take a few with you, though... :D They absolutely still see use in relatively immobile fights (over structures, etc.).

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2016-10-28 15:26:58 UTC
Is this really a thread asking about why people use better ships as opposed to ships that are not as good?

The ONLY thing tech1 has over the rest (tech2, tech3, Faction/Pirate) is cost. If you need cheap, go T1, you want better, then go for "not T1".

Even then T1 has it's uses. Last night I was in a fleet of T1 Hurricanes when we smashed NCdots Machariels (with a Nestor and a FAX kill on top of that).
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2016-10-28 22:04:54 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Asmodai Xodai wrote:


Perhaps I should state that GENERIC battleships are the things seen as 'useless,' at least by many. Yes, the tier 2, tier 3, and pirate stuff is used.


Of the top 10 BS by kill count in October, half are T1 (Domi, Geddon, Tempest, Typhoon, and Rokh). The pirate ones are heading up the list, with the Machariel by a massive margin, which is probably attributable to its warp speed bonus, in no small part.

For Combat BC hulls, the killingest ship is the Hurricane, followed by the Gnosis, and the Ferox. The fleet hurricane comes in 4th. There are no pirate BCs, but if we interspersed Command Ships into the list, the Sleipnir would come in 5th, and would be the only one to break the top 10.

Cruisers: The caracal comes in second, and is only a few hundred kills behind the Orthrus. Vexor comes in 7th. This category is fairly dominated by pirate ships.

Tech 3 destroyers, including that Jackdaw, are getting a good whack with the nerf bat pretty soon, here

Asmodai Xodai wrote:

Just got shot at by a Vengeance. Again, had to look the thing up to even know what it was.


I don't really know what to say to this. That's just an assault frigate, and it has probably been around since, I dunno, 2004? They're in a bad place right now because T3Ds are just better. They're pretty mundane, as ships go.


Quote:
Which brings me to battleships. Back when I used to play, these were things people aspired to sit in and fly. Heck, it was my dream, my life's ambition, to fly some big fat battleship bristling with all kinds of firepower. Now, everybody keeps telling me to stay away from battleships, that they suck, nobody flies them, etc. It's like WHAT?!?! Are you serious?


Your character has only been around since 2013. Battleships weren't particularly hot **** even back then, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. There has never been a shortage of new players who don't understand the game, yet, wanting to fly battleships because BIGGER = BETTER! Still exists today. I have a character in a corp where a fairly new player plexed his way into a blingy navy raven not all that long ago (which Roll ).

They're good at what they do. They warp at the speed of smell, and if you're looking for casual PvP, you'll probably get blobbed because you're too slow to avoid it. If you can take a few with you, though... :D They absolutely still see use in relatively immobile fights (over structures, etc.).


Battleships were corp assets and the dream cream of 2007. Not so much anymore.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#27 - 2016-10-28 22:22:28 UTC  |  Edited by: PopeUrban
I'm kinda half and half on this post.

On the one hand, yeah, don't complain that as a returning player you don't recognize a bunch of ships. That's on you.

On the other hand, the whole point of tiericide was to level out the idea that more costly=better in favor of more costly=more specialized.

Because, you know, by the logic that spawned tiericide in the first place t1s should really be the kings in solo pvp, but quite a bit less useful in fleet battles due to poor synergy coming from less specialized ships.

Sadly this isn't the case any more and many t1 hulls are getting left in the dust again despite a massive rebalance aimed at making sure they were viable ships that really shined in the hands of pilots with diverse skill trains while T2s were more effective for pilots with highly specialized sets of trains.
Asmodai Xodai
#28 - 2016-10-29 03:40:19 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
It is called choice, in fact most of the time I do indeed fly exclusively T-1 ships except when I'm doing a specialized task, most people just like uber ships, nothing wrong with having a choice, all you have to do is "remove them" from overview and you won't have to worry about noticing them and you can go on about your daily routine.


Just to clarify, I am all for choice (as stated in my OP). I'm just wondering if there is a balance issue, and I'm wondering what the original design and intent of the devs was. To me, it seems there is an issue.
Asmodai Xodai
#29 - 2016-10-29 03:41:23 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:

On the other hand, the whole point of tiericide was to level out the idea that more costly=better in favor of more costly=more specialized.

Because, you know, by the logic that spawned tiericide in the first place t1s should really be the kings in solo pvp, but quite a bit less useful in fleet battles due to poor synergy coming from less specialized ships.

Sadly this isn't the case any more and many t1 hulls are getting left in the dust again despite a massive rebalance aimed at making sure they were viable ships that really shined in the hands of pilots with diverse skill trains while T2s were more effective for pilots with highly specialized sets of trains.


I guess this sums up my point in a good way.
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2016-10-29 06:34:29 UTC
Kaivarian Coste wrote:
Tell me about it. In FW zones, everyone's flying T3 destroyers or pirate/T2 frigs.

Having said that, if you can master T1 hulls, you can get some juicy killmails and tears when your T1 defeats a T3. And flying a T1 almost guarantees you a fight.


Which is sort of ironic, because I remember CCP Fozzie back in 2014 saying that they wanted to take another look at how T3 ships worked in general because they were just better at everything. Then they unveiled the T3 destroyers, with their ability to change modes on a whim, and I just sort of facepalmed, lol.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama

Conrad Makbure
CM HOLDINGS
#31 - 2016-10-29 14:49:22 UTC
This is multi account catalyst online now. Battleships are both PvP and PvE, but more PvE than PvP. The swarm is where it's at.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2016-10-29 19:22:43 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:
I'm kinda half and half on this post.

On the one hand, yeah, don't complain that as a returning player you don't recognize a bunch of ships. That's on you.

On the other hand, the whole point of tiericide was to level out the idea that more costly=better in favor of more costly=more specialized.

Because, you know, by the logic that spawned tiericide in the first place t1s should really be the kings in solo pvp, but quite a bit less useful in fleet battles due to poor synergy coming from less specialized ships.

Sadly this isn't the case any more and many t1 hulls are getting left in the dust again despite a massive rebalance aimed at making sure they were viable ships that really shined in the hands of pilots with diverse skill trains while T2s were more effective for pilots with highly specialized sets of trains.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#33 - 2016-10-30 03:20:56 UTC
Badly fit t1 hulls will get owned by t2/t3/faction/pirate boats.

Properly fit t1 hulls flown with skill can...surprise the hell out of people..:)

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

Steffles
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2016-10-30 06:58:23 UTC
The main issues are mobility, range, isk generation and drop rates for faction ships and not really a t1 issue.

There are plenty of T1 ships that are used (Griffin, Caracal, Osprey, Hurricane etc) very frequently. They are used because they're cheap fleets and they do the job quite well.

More importantly these ships are range based ships and mobility wise they're okay.

When it comes to faction and t2 / t3 ships you'll find the very same thing, you'll find certain ships are being consistently used while others are consistently ignored. Svipul, Keres, Gila, Cerb, Arazu, Rapier, Orthrus, Worm, Inties, Ferox, bombers.... are all in vogue. Why? Range, cost, ability, mobility. The ability to escape and move about, warp out, warp in, insta-lock, damp, fire from huge distances, move extremely fast, bounce around to pings...

Unfortunately even if the ship, say a svipul costs 10 times that of a thrasher, its worth it because its so much more likely to survive and kill. The Svipul has something ridiculous like 95% kill vs loss.

CCP has introduced the old duel mwd problem again just without the duel microwarpdrives. I have spent a good few hours chasing a couple of Orthrus, Gila, Svipul around system, agility speed pings make them almost impossible to catch they may as well have duel microwarpdrives because the same problem exists they're largely impossible to catch without them screwing up somehow.

Some people have thousands of pings around gates in their local areas, I know someone that has a ping on gates for 1k in 50km intervals.

In terms of isk generation its just way too easy to make isk and the cost of faction ships has dropped so much they're not much more expensive than a t1. When I left a few years ago a vindicator was 1.2 billion now its 400mill? Rattles were around 600mill now they're 350mill? People are making between 20mill ticks to 200m ticks depending on their form of PvP, Havens, Incursions etc.

I don't recall the prices of the faction cruisers but I'd guess they have dropped significantly in price too.

CCP wants to sell plex and plex won't be sold as well if you need to buy 3 plex for a faction cruiser or battleship. They'll sell more if 1 plex buys a person a fully fit faction cruiser, a fully fit T3D and some change for skins. It'd be different if plex were rare commoditys but they'e not, CCP can generate an infinite amount of plex so it costs them nothing.

This is the EvE of microtransactions (More like Macrotransactions tbh) and everyone running around in blingy ships, making a lot of isk (to sell to people purchasing plex) is good for CCP's bottom line.

Hey CPP - Time we put highsec back to how it was originally designed - http://i.imgur.com/GT0T0oS.jpg

oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#35 - 2016-10-30 13:34:25 UTC
I think this happens when a game designer listens too much to the player base.
Some of the worst game design decisions were made by former players turned Dev or from Devs listening to player too much.

Dominion Sov with invulnerable Starbases in Capitol systems is a perfect example.

Its always interesting to consider how Eve would be today if we never had the huge increase in Super Caps in the game.

There are other less clear-cut and more debatable examples.

I'd throw JFs, Tech III and Incursions in there as well.

Moon Goo and the original Tech II lottery were also implemented in a highly questionable manner as well. Too much transfer of wealth to too few players.

Gneeznow
Ship spinners inc
#36 - 2016-10-30 13:55:18 UTC
Mike Adoulin wrote:
Badly fit t1 hulls will get owned by t2/t3/faction/pirate boats.

Properly fit t1 hulls flown with skill can...surprise the hell out of people..:)



This tbh, I mostly fly 'generics' as you call them. A bellicose will murder a t3d most of the time, a vexor with slaves and an armour mindlink is close to 20,000 armour or something. I've made a comfortable living out of flying cheap stuff and killing expensive stuff simply because people aren't afraid of generic t1 ships anymore.

You think people want to fight your proteus, orthrus, svipul or vigilant? They don't, but they do want to fight my bellicose, vexor, ferox or arbitrator which they think is poop (and then they die)
Asmodai Xodai
#37 - 2016-10-30 21:16:25 UTC
Steffles wrote:
CCP has introduced the old duel mwd problem again just without the duel microwarpdrives. I have spent a good few hours chasing a couple of Orthrus, Gila, Svipul around system, agility speed pings make them almost impossible to catch they may as well have duel microwarpdrives because the same problem exists they're largely impossible to catch without them screwing up somehow.

Some people have thousands of pings around gates in their local areas, I know someone that has a ping on gates for 1k in 50km intervals.


Can someone link to an article on this? I googled "agility speed pings" but came up with nothing.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#38 - 2016-10-30 21:25:59 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
I've recently come back from a 3+ year hiatus, and something has struck me. I want to know whether I'm right or wrong on this. Wasn't there a time in the past where people flew generic lines of ships as a matter of course or practice? When tech 2s, tech 3s, pirate faction ships, etc. were either rare or nonexistent?

Nowadays I can't even find a discussion on ships that uses names I know and understand like 'Raven.' All I hear is names I don't know, and I have to google to find out. 'Oh no, to run level whatever complexes, you want to do it in a Rattlesnake, not in a [GENERIC].' 'No bro, for faction warfare, you want Machariel.' On and on. It's like you don't even hear the names of generic ship lines anymore. It's so bad that the other day, when a guy was insisting on flying a generic, people were saying 'well if you HAVE to fly a [GENERIC], make it a navy issue [GENERIC].'

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for additional content and ships in the game, I'm all for tech 2s, tech 3s, pirate ships, whatever. It adds choice, it adds flavor, etc. But when that stuff is considered so good, or the generic stuff considered so bad, that all anyone wants to fly is the fancy-shmancy stuff, it seems there must be a problem somewhere.

The other day I had just saved up enough money to buy a good old generic Drake, and had just gone into what I thought was a nice quiet asteroid field to practice shooting on rats. I simply wanted to figure out how to fly again, as I was literally doing absurd things like trying to use arrow keys or WASD to steer the ship, and I literally couldn't remember how to target or fire weapons. When all of a sudden something called a 'Jackdaw' decloaks next to me and blows me to Kingdom Come.

All I could think is 'WTF!' I mean, this guy didn't even have the common decency to gank a poor defenseless noob using a ship that noob could know, understand, and pronounce. No, he had to do it in something called a 'Jackdaw' of all things. I mean I literally thought I was reading it wrong and kept typing 'Jackjaw' into google to figure out what the hell it was. I mean, come on! You guys get off on beating up on poor, defenseless, crippled noobs? Is that what makes you happy? Fine, then I say do it proper! Decloak in front of me in a Calderi Raven or whatever, and unload all 6 or 8 barrels directly into my face! At least I'll be blown to smithereens by something I can pronounce! At least it will be a good old-fashioned generic!

Which brings me to battleships. Back when I used to play, these were things people aspired to sit in and fly. Heck, it was my dream, my life's ambition, to fly some big fat battleship bristling with all kinds of firepower. Now, everybody keeps telling me to stay away from battleships, that they suck, nobody flies them, etc. It's like WHAT?!?! Are you serious?

What on earth has CCP done to this game when battleships are considered junk, and nobody wants to fly anything but high-tech fancy-shmancy stuff?

Okay, off of my soapbox. Time to go point my noob ship at some 'roid for the next 12 hours to try and save up for my next real ship. Donations welcome.


CCP increased the escalation rate for anomalies, roughly quadruplng the number of 8/10 and 10/10 plexes; these almost always drop a pirate BS BPC. In fact you've come back to prices on a bit of an upswing at the moment, but as it is, the rattlesnake is strictly superior to any non-Marauder BS for PvE, and to most BS full stop for PvP (The Mach does what the rattler can't).

Combine that with a general increase in mineral prices and requirements, and the price difference between faction and "generic" isn't that much,

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#39 - 2016-10-31 03:41:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
For me EvE lost its shine the day they changed the missiles names: from long time, "lore" ones to some monkey mumbo jumbo.

Amarr characters lost their awesome head pieces.

Lots of dumbification went on. T3 became the jolly card. As predicted by lots of "thinkers" (I think including Malkanis), a simple price barrier proved to be useless, once words of godlike ships spread, everybody gets one.

Then ages to redo an inventory nobody asked for and finally "tiericide", where fun ships and a proven game balance were shaken up and then... well... it did not exactly land well.
Gneeznow
Ship spinners inc
#40 - 2016-10-31 04:00:56 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Then ages to redo an inventory nobody asked for and finally "tiericide", where fun ships and a proven game balance were shaken up and then... well... it did not exactly land well.


Elaborate on how tiercide was bad? Proven game balance? before tiercide nobody flew half the frigs and cruisers in game because they were worthless compared to higher tier frigs and cruisers. Same with the old tier 1 battlecruisers like the ferox and proph.