Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I'm not sure what you mean. At the moment the Claymore, a T2 battlecruiser, has 5 launchers and gets 5% ROF per level of BC and 5% per level of command ships. So a 78% dps bonus if you train command ships V (an epic train). (that's 8.9 launcher equivalents)

Whereas you seem to be proposing a 10% ROF bonus per level of cruiser, so 100% dps bonus at cruiser V, HAC I. That's 10 launcher equivalents for a much shorter train. I just can't see it happening.

Go back and flesh out your idea a bit. It has potential, but the ship can't have a massive dps boost without needing to train the T2 skill. The T1 skill at V is the baseline that all pilots would have to have just to sit in it.

(realtime edit) I'm not writing any more - the forums have eaten too much bloody text (DDoS somewhere?) but I'm sure you know what i mean.

I think this is a bad idea. There already are two missile based HACs in the game, the armor based Sacrilege and the shield based Cerberus. Making the Muninn a missile boat would just reduce the variety.

Besides the Muninn is a fantastic PVP boat as it is. No need to change anything.

If you want to fly a shield based HAC with missiles, check out the Cerberus.

The Killboard for it says otherwise. Its the least used HAC in the game and there are very few groups who use them (outside of gate camps). Which gate camps dont count as a proving ground of how good a ship is.

Show me examples of how the muninn is a fantastic pvp boat, and ill show you a fleet cane that does it better.

As far as variety, you didnt read my post. This is a shield brawler that is more about application than range. The sac is an armor brawler, the cerb is a sniper/kiter. Cerbs die quick in a brawling scenario. The revised Muninn is more of a shield brawler, not a kiter. Hence the shield boost bonus and application bonus. It also doesnt have bonuses that apply to RLML, its meant to use HML/HAMs, where as the cerb is 90% RLML.

Also, minmatar HACs are missing minmatars secondary weapon system. All other races have both weapons available in their HACs.

Cerb = missiles
Eagle = hybrids

Deimos = hybrid
Ishtar = drones

Zealot = lasers
Sac = missiles (and drones, kind of. Large drone bay for a non drone cruiser)

Vagabond = projectiles
Muninn = projectiles

Minmatar's secondary weapon system is missiles, which is not represented.

When BL used Muninns it was a completely different meta. Muninns cant compete against arty machs and canes in the current meta. I fought a muninn fleet when i was in TRI a long time ago. It was hilarious alpha'ing a muninn every few seconds in arty machs. They dont have the tank or damage to be competitive anymore.

"We outnumbered our opponents heavily, so the muninn is fine" any ship can be considered fine when you outnumber (having critical mass to alpha) or have a better comp than your opponent (or opponents lack of comp).

I looked through your corps KB and can only find a few cases where you used muninns. You werent fighting a huge corp, but calmil in what looked like a kitchen sink fleet. And i cant find any losses. So 0 lossed muninns and you killed a phantasm, hugginn, lach and 2-3 other ships. Looks more like a gate camp or seal clubbing than an actual fleet fight.

But im willing to admit being wrong, maybe KB is missing kills/losses. I just find it odd i can find 0 losses and only a couple engagements.

Maybe its cause youre in LS. But in null, muninn comps get vollied off field as theyre paper thin tank wise.

So, lets say we do make it an effective artillery ship. Or even just fix the issue it has now.

-1 turret
move a high to a mid
increase 5% damage bonus to 10% damage bonus

So great, now its relatively unchanged (slight loss in alpha as compared to before) in damage, is easier to fit, and has a semi-flexible layout.

What does it do though, that the fleet hurricane can't, at least as far as artillery is concerned?

Maybe shoot a little bit farther with tremor? Its tank still won't be as effective as the hurricane's (though in shield form, will be an improvement over current stats). Yes, i expect a BC to field a bigger tank and more damage than a HAC to some extent (though some HAC's do more damage than BCs, such as the deimos/cerb/ishtar). However, looking at cost, the fleet cane is 160m roughly, and the muninn is 140-180m. So for 20m more, you can get something that has way more pro's than con's in comparison. Plus it insures better. And if you somehow have a militia hook-up, then fleet canes are cheap as chips (70m).

The argument could be made that it would move, align, warp faster. But that is literally all it would have going for it. It also doesn't have the option to reposition with MJD like the fleet cane.

Now going back to the fact that minmatar are missing their secondary weapon system in the HAC line-up (unlike every other race), it kind of makes sense to change the muninn into a missile ship.

As someone who flies a lot of artillery ships, i don't like the idea of taking an artillery ship away, but the Muninn (even when fixed) doesn't bring anything new to the table that other ship don't already do.

Na, bonuses work fine for artillery. Its designed around artillery. Its just the slot layout is terrible, because its forcing it into an armor role.

With only 3 mids, it really limits what an armor fit can do. For example, lets say you wanted to turn it into a armor kiter (like ONI), you would have to go point/mwd/cap booster and then rep in the low. Problem is, its not fast/agile like an ONI, so its easy for something to get under your guns and kill you. Plus you don't have 7 lows to do nano/tank/damage etc, and the muninn has some pretty big resist holes to fill, since its t2 resists do nothing for armor tanks.

Ok, so fit a plate. Great, now you're slower and its even harder to fit artillery. Oh, and you do no damage since you needed to use fitting rigs/mods just to get your fit on there in the first place.

with 4 mids, you do a kite setup+web, or even a light shield kite setup. Fleet shield fits would improve too, plus it would be easier to fit as an armor tank too (with only 4 turrets instead of 5) and still giving more mids for more utility (tracking computers).

But that still comes back to the base issue. Lets say thats how we fix the muninn, remove a gun, add a mid, increase damage. Does it still fill a role that isn't already filled by the hurricane/sleipnir? Again, the argument could be made that it has a smaller sig and slightly faster, but its still fairly flimsy.

A missile muninn would be something that would both flesh out the minmatar HAC's, and be something new in the HAC line (there are no missile ships with application bonus, only range bonus).

To an extent. The fleet cane (as that is the primary competitor of the muninn) has a better tracking bonus and more damage. So, in a brawling role, it can brawl/skirmish the same (if not better since it has 2 utility highs for neuts).

Yes, the Muninn is faster, but that is minor in the scheme of things. Muninn is 1913m/s with MWD cold, where as the fleet hurricane is about 1461 cold. So.. about 500 m/s faster, which is significant i know, but hear me out. The fleet cane can do something the Muninn cannot, which is MJD.

It can bring targets to it from range and hold them, it can intercept targets that try to flee. Yea 1900m/s muninn is fast enough to F1 approach into targets, but is slow if you ever hope to catch anything that is trying to get away. Here is the perfect example of this, where i'm on the verge of killing an orthrus but he burns away (at 4k/s), a Muninn has no way to kill him before he gets away, even if i'm burning after him OH at 2800m/s. I'm able to intercept with MJD.

Maybe if they buff the Muninn speed more? Bring its cold speed up to 2100m/s or so, that could make it more viable with the proposed turret change. But, it still feels like its competing with the fleet cane too much. And minmatar's secondary weapon system is still not utilized in the HAC line-up, like every other race is. If it was a missile platform as proposed it would still be just as much of a skirmisher as you're stating, it will just be using missiles instead, with a slot layout that is unique and has no other competition with other ships.

The role for the missile muninn would be more focused on application and RoF. A dps focused ship with no damage bonus (bonuses do not synergize with RLML, only HAMS/HML).

So in comparison to scyfi/cerb/naracal, they are all heavily biased to rlml. And the naracal does not have drones, nor can it brawl effectively. Same as the cerb. Scyfi/cerb do not have an application bonus, and the scyfi has a missile damage bonus, not RoF. Plus the proposed Muninn has a range bonus combined with application bonus. Making it feasible to kite with HAMS, assuming you use the proper fit setup for application.

Navy drake is similar, but also cannot fit an active tank unless going with RLML, which is not what the proposed Muninn is focused on. Its a get in your face brawler (like deimos), face tank and get out.

T1 drake is kinetic lock with no application bonus, plus it cannot fit an active tank without heavy gimping.

Claymore is a CS, the inspiration of the new Muninn. They would be similar, but the muninn would have a range bonus, be faster, smaller sig and be easier to sit in (natural progression to claymore).

Nighthawk doesnt have range and also cannot active tank effectively. Sacrilege is an armor brawler, and also does not have an application bonus.

Its not that we are adding a new ship, just repurposing an underutilized ship. Im willing to move a high to a mid or low on the missile ship, as missile boats arent quite as susceptible to frigs, but minmatar theme tends to have a utility high. However, a 5/5/5 layout would keep it quite flexible. Even a 5/6/4 layout could be very interesting, though i suspect that would be too strong.

To be fair, the utility high isn't useless, a medium neut fits well there and is good for disabling frigates or some cruisers. Muninn's base cap is one of the few redeeming qualities, as its got a fairly large cap pool/regen (for a cruiser).

If you get rid of the utility high and keep the current gun bonuses, it just becomes a T2 stabber fleet issue. Which i guess isn't terrible, but the utility high gives it something the stabber fleet doesn't have. In my opinion, gun boats without utility highs (at least minmatar) are quite vulnerable.

I'd be more willing to lose the utility high if it went missiles, since no tracking concerns.

Is far easier to keep utility high and drop a turret, and then increase damage bonus to compensate. Best of both worlds (assuming CCP sticks to the Muninn as a gun boat).