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Do CCP need a bigger art department?

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Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1 - 2011-09-16 13:16:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
Critiquing Art or Style objectively is hard.

Some can love, what others hate. Many seem to believe that if you can provoke strong reactions, then your probably doing a good job. Say what you like about the CCP's art team, but there ability to create stuff that provokes a response is above and beyond anything I've seen in this particular genre...

Great art should never be rushed, HOWEVER there is a feeling that art seems to be the most frequent bottleneck for new stuff. It seems to be the reason why we can't have Y, or why X isn't ready yet or why Z isn't even worth thinking about because there still busy working on A, B and C.... (See WiS) or redoing D, E and F because they had to outsource it the last time because they didn't have enough people to do it themselves the first time....

Given the nature of where Eve is today (and no, people don't pay subscriptions for just sand in a box) - wouldn't it be wiser to have a bigger art department?

Or am I being too simplistic?

Are the CCP using them as an excuse?

CSM, what say you?

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2011-09-16 13:24:15 UTC
Makes sense - more art people means they can fix POS interface :)
CCP Fallout
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3 - 2011-09-16 13:24:47 UTC
The Art teams are composed, really of two parts: you have the artists, and then then the software gurus. In regards to WiS, we were building technology from the ground up, which requires a lot of programming time. So the assets may be finished by the artists, but then we need to get it to work and still look gorgeous via programming. It's the programmers who made CQ much more light-friendly recently :D

CCP Fallout Associate Community Manager EVE Online @ccp_fallout
Baralosus
Caldari Provisions
#4 - 2011-09-16 13:26:25 UTC
Eve development resources have been shifted to focus on Dust514 and World of Darkness. What you are seeing is a slowed down progress because of this. If CCP is able to afford hiring more people to work in the art development aspect, then I'm sure they would be doing that right now. I believe that they cannot afford expanding their staff when they have too much development resources tied up with other games (that which is not currently generating any revenue) and an old game (Eve) that is starting to show signs of age, and possible decline.

But I'm all for putting in more development for Eve. I could care less how they do it as long as they find something that works.
CCP Fallout
C C P
C C P Alliance
#5 - 2011-09-16 13:27:46 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Makes sense - more art people means they can fix POS interface :)


Interfaces would be UI designers and programmers. I don't believe those are in art, but rather specific to scrum teams (e.g. Punkturis is a UI software engineer on BFF)

CCP Fallout Associate Community Manager EVE Online @ccp_fallout
CCP Fallout
C C P
C C P Alliance
#6 - 2011-09-16 13:30:26 UTC
Baralosus wrote:
Eve development resources have been shifted to focus on Dust514 and World of Darkness. What you are seeing is a slowed down progress because of this. If CCP is able to afford hiring more people to work in the art development aspect, then I'm sure they would be doing that right now. I believe that they cannot afford expanding their staff when they have too much development resources tied up with other games (that which is not currently generating any revenue) and an old game (Eve) that is starting to show signs of age, and possible decline.

But I'm all for putting in more development for Eve. I could care less how they do it as long as they find something that works.


I respectfully point out that you are wrong, sir, and ask that you not listen to skuttlbutt. We do not move EVE devs out of EVE. In fact, when we did Apocrypha, staff from WoD and DUST were moved to EVE. These kinds of things happen quite often, where we may borrow resources from WoD or DUST and use them in EVE.

Additionally, we are a company of 600 people, of which, we have quite a number of resources working on EVE.

CCP Fallout Associate Community Manager EVE Online @ccp_fallout
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#7 - 2011-09-16 13:34:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
CCP Fallout wrote:
The Art teams are composed, really of two parts: you have the artists, and then then the software gurus. In regards to WiS, we were building technology from the ground up, which requires a lot of programming time. So the assets may be finished by the artists, but then we need to get it to work and still look gorgeous via programming. It's the programmers who made CQ much more light-friendly recently :D

But then when we complain about the 5th tech 3 subsystem, or why we can't work on "POS Stuff", or why we can't add or remove turrets to ships that need to be rebalanced...

I understand that there are major steps from taking something like new engine trail concepts to something that works in a game, or nebulas, or COMETS, but there seems to be a common trend of "Art Dept is busy right now, try again in 6 months."

I mean, is this an acceptable state to have or is each thing really different?

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#8 - 2011-09-16 13:34:51 UTC
CCP Fallout wrote:
Additionally, we are a company of 600 people, of which, we have quite a number of resources working on EVE.


I've seen it mentioned once or twice that specific projects are also being outsourced, I think mostly for art. If so that could expedite projects without requiring tasking of any of those 600 other than to manage the contract.

_ _
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#9 - 2011-09-16 13:37:16 UTC
Rees Noturana wrote:
CCP Fallout wrote:
Additionally, we are a company of 600 people, of which, we have quite a number of resources working on EVE.


I've seen it mentioned once or twice that specific projects are also being outsourced, I think mostly for art. If so that could expedite projects without requiring tasking of any of those 600 other than to manage the contract.

Like I hinted at in the OP, this happened with Trinity. Now we're redoing every ship model. Is there a lesson in this somewhere?

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#10 - 2011-09-16 13:39:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Since one of my main wishes for Eve Online at this point is for CCP to get back into the swing of truly impressive expansions (like Exodus/Apocrypha) where the expansion really is about expanding Eve - and represents dozens of new ship models across new classes, specializations and content alongside in-space equipment and environments; then I think there is definitely a need for more artistic resource in general. I can remember being told during my tenure on the CSM that art was often a bottleneck and recent experiences have continued to suggest this is the case.

Cyno effects, engine trails, skip reskinned paint jobs, new hulls. Even the artistic side of stuff like the POS revamp proposals. It all needs talented artists to deliver the content.

If CCP have the money to hire anybody it propably should be talented art professions who want to make spaceships and space effects to keep driving the distinctive vision of this game.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Richard Aiel
The Merchants of War
#11 - 2011-09-16 13:40:28 UTC
CCP Fallout wrote:
In regards to WiS,


I could really go without ppl in CCP focussing on this for a while...

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/buddahcjcc/SOA-3-2.jpg
Josie Starshine
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2011-09-16 13:51:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Josie Starshine
Richard Aiel wrote:
CCP Fallout wrote:
In regards to WiS,


I could really go without ppl in CCP focussing on this for a while...


And I would like them to continue working on it, as well as FiS. They have enough resources to do both. I do not mind if they slow on WiS a bit for FiS but there is also a lot to look forward to in a fully implemented WiS.

Most of the current playerbase only know FiS so that is all they care about, understandable. Many new players and future new players who see their characters as 'people and not pods' might get off the fence and come to EVE for WiS + FiS.
ISquishWorms
#13 - 2011-09-16 13:52:11 UTC
Just wanted to say I think the graphics in Eve are amazing and that’s coming from someone who runs Eve on its lowest settings due to having a rubbish computer. I invited a friend to play this game with the plan to get them so salvage all my missions for me but they spend more time taking screenshots than salvaging. Roll They too are blown away by the graphics but they do have a nice PC and run the game on its max settings and are often sending me tantalizing screenshots of what I am missing out on.

In regards to the graphics side of things I think CCP can be truly proud of course with the exception of those new turret icons, what were they thinking.

‘No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh’.
Suneai
Fredegar Hohenstaufen Corporation
Holy Arumbian Empire
#14 - 2011-09-16 13:52:18 UTC
Richard Aiel wrote:
CCP Fallout wrote:
In regards to WiS,
I could really go without ppl in CCP focussing on this for a while...
Rather than leaving a very incomplete product in the game, I'd rather they saw it all the way through.

If they completely stopped WiS and switched to focus on something else; there would be a great chance that when they decided to go back to WiS at a later point, any changes they made in WiS might cause issues with the newly working bits in FiS. Of course saying that, if they did do WiS first... anything they did onwards in FiS would have a chance of breaking WiS stuff so I guess it's a case of which evil is preferred.
Personally I'd rather they finish WiS and have that as the thing possibly getting broken by new FiS work, rather than later work on WiS causing issues with FiS.

o.O I said WiS and FiS quite a bit in there.
Azahni Vah'nos
Vah'nos Family
#15 - 2011-09-16 14:27:20 UTC
One of the problems with just adding more artists is that each will likely have their own unique style to their work. For example I could give 10 artists an outline of what I wanted and the returned product from each of them would be different.

Also individual artists may be better at designing certain things, one of them may produce the best looking Amarr ships, but when it comes to them doing Minmatar ones they may not be of the same quality.

You end up with more visual consistency when one artist produces a certain races group of assets.

Of course I'm talking purely about the art designs and not about the 3D modeling, texturing, etc that is required to produce a finished in-game asset.

Nex (Cash Shop) / Aurum - removing sand from the sandbox since Incarna. Currently the only use for aurum is to buy virtual items in the in-game store, but Cockerill expects to expand its uses in the future.

Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#16 - 2011-09-16 14:32:13 UTC
Azahni Vah'nos wrote:
One of the problems with just adding more artists is that each will likely have their own unique style to their work. For example I could give 10 artists an outline of what I wanted and the returned product from each of them would be different.

Also individual artists may be better at designing certain things, one of them may produce the best looking Amarr ships, but when it comes to them doing Minmatar ones they may not be of the same quality.

You end up with more visual consistency when one artist produces a certain races group of assets.

Of course I'm talking purely about the art designs and not about the 3D modeling, texturing, etc that is required to produce a finished in-game asset.

Yeah, just to be clear, this isn't about just getting more concept artists.

And I don't believe most concept artists at CCP only do sketches (multi-disciplined).

Are there any common weaknesses in the chain of delivery of art assets? (whether it by VFX developers, animators or texture artists). Should there be one or more teams of people reasonable for delivering this content for example?

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Rhaegor Stormborn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2011-09-16 14:35:21 UTC
If the speed at which CCP's art department moves is due to the amount of resources they are investing in artists and artwork development, yes, they need to do something.

And one of the people who already work there needs to get their ass in gear with alliance logos.
The Mittani
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2011-09-16 14:45:37 UTC
The Art department is a consistent bottleneck in FiS feature development. They do very good work and there's 30 or so of them, but obviously EVE needs more artists/tech artists/etc working on FiS.

There was a lot about this in the May CSM6 minutes. There are certain game elements that require art assets that the players are keen to see; destructible outposts require wrecked station models, the Dead Horse modular pos proposal that basically everyone agrees is wonderful requires new art for each module, etc. And of course, the V3ing of the ships and model updates to match the stunning new Maller and Scorpion.

~hi~
Takamori Maruyama
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2011-09-16 15:04:25 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
The Art department is a consistent bottleneck in FiS feature development. They do very good work and there's 30 or so of them, but obviously EVE needs more artists/tech artists/etc working on FiS.

There was a lot about this in the May CSM6 minutes. There are certain game elements that require art assets that the players are keen to see; destructible outposts require wrecked station models, the Dead Horse modular pos proposal that basically everyone agrees is wonderful requires new art for each module, etc. And of course, the V3ing of the ships and model updates to match the stunning new Maller and Scorpion.


Explosion animations of ships depending of which type of weapon you are using, that would make each explosion in this game more enjoyable, also different wreck arts like your said.

Loud and clear...
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#20 - 2011-09-16 16:13:54 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
The Art department is a consistent bottleneck in FiS feature development. They do very good work and there's 30 or so of them, but obviously EVE needs more artists/tech artists/etc working on FiS.

There was a lot about this in the May CSM6 minutes. There are certain game elements that require art assets that the players are keen to see; destructible outposts require wrecked station models, the Dead Horse modular pos proposal that basically everyone agrees is wonderful requires new art for each module, etc. And of course, the V3ing of the ships and model updates to match the stunning new Maller and Scorpion.

Is this something the CCP is aware is an issue? (if it is indeed an issue) or does it need to go to the assembly hall?

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
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