Player Features and Ideas Discussion

There seems to be a fundamental disagreement about the number of people looking to pop BRs without knowing their cargo. Some people seem to think it's super high. In my experience, it's not that high. Without actual hard data on this (which is hard to come by since non-kills aren't tallied), there's likely to be little basis for agreement.

So, barring someone bringing hard data into this, I think we're at an impasse should probably just move on.

First, my phrasing seems to have been misinterpreted. I've lost count the number of times I've seen people reduce the game to a PvP game very often. I don't care what CCP says they built. I care what they built. I don't care what their intentions were. I care what they actually built. But for the benefit of comprehension and to rephrase what I'm meant, take the first two sentences and replace them with: "That's the biggest lie of EVE, that EVE is just a shooting game." as my intent was to attack the idea and not you.

But that aside, I answered the only actual question in your post, "Why is it always the fault of someone who shoots someone else in a shooting game?" by stating that it's not just a shooting game and since they were playing the "build my new industrial game", the person shooting the person who was likely not interested in PvP at the time got upset. And, yet, I did not agree with them, even if I understood them.

So I ask you, rather than respond to what was an actual observation, why called me names? How does that further the conversation? I attacked the idea that EVE is just a shooting game, not you. An idea that has been stated so many times it doesn't belong to any one person. And you may be stating that you're not saying that precisely, it can be easily construed that you were given how many other people have.

I hope for better understanding in the future.

As long as you understand, only you have said just a pvp game.

No one else has said that. It's not just a pvp game.

CCP prevents us from posting KB links. Mine died to this last week on an alt. Wednesday night. I know I am just one km/lm lol.

But yeah an impasse. I still say change bonus to faster warp speed or even BLOPS cloaked velocity bonus would be nice. MY crane that died in Jita did clear bubbles with MWD cloak trick once or twice. I won't lie...it be nice to be faster to do this after your mwd slide boost into cloak clears. Or the faster warp to shave of seconds no hyperspatials. Which have the downside of increased sig radius....which can mean faster locks. edit: faster warp speed angle eyed is harder to catch on the end of the warp. Example I used before was pipeline systems with no stations (or no station access). You go gate to gate...something can beat you to the other side. Lets make that part a bit harder maybe. Give usually lower sp inty pilots a chance to be he hero tackle best case.

These more in them with blockade running to me. You are running from the blockade. If the blockade has locked and scanned you...you failed to run fast enough. You know, like American football. The running back would prefer to see that hole, run through it and to the end zone he goes. Its not fun or good for the body when caught and tackled by 300 lbs of muscled up edit: defensive line man all day long for 2 yards gains.

A crazy bonus would be the ability to activate the cloak while under the gate cloak. I know it would be massively overpowered. In reality, there are other bonuses I would accept besides scan immunity. Though, again, without hard data it would be hard to determine. I fly very differently into Jita than I do other places. I think Jita tends to develop "professional" gank squads, and you rarely get those in the other trade hubs and certainly not in open space very often. So when I'm thinking about people who might gank you I'm also thinking about those individuals who are pure opportunists. I've had people target me and, I presume, scan me off a gate in high sec. They're new. They're looking for a score and they probably fail a lot, but scan immunity probably makes them think twice before targetting you.

We're about to have a whole lot of new players, if the alpha clone thing is successful. A lot of them are going to try and gank people and a lot of them aren't going to be doing it well. I've generally found that, in life, people tend to avoid things of high uncertainty and potential dubious reward. It's only those few people who take the long view or dedicate themselves for other reasons that become successful.

Anyways, we don't have hard data. And killboards won't help with knowing how many BRs survive because they weren't shot at. I guess you could compare successful (non-explody) trips to Jita by BRs vs non-BRs as a percentage of total trips by BRs vs non-BRs. But until that data comes around everything is speculation by a populace with very different experiences. In other words, your mileage may vary.

This kind of statement is the start of a lot of wrong assumptions. The number of times it's been said that it's just common sense or a natural conclusion where the second part was just plain wrong is staggering. There's a reason that scientific study doesn't work this way. There's a reason governmental institutions are data-driven. Why large-scale companies are data-driven. Individual pattern recognition is often wrong because we can't see the whole picture and our life experiences color our decisions.

So you'll excuse me if I wait to see actual data on this.

Think the issue these people are getting lucky. They are getting the less adventurous gankers who let them live. They won't see the point. Up until my stupid attack the long life of my BR was based on, as you mentioned a few times, using it like an inty. Inty with a CO cloak lol. Fast aligns, fast warp, fast everything. Click the mouse fast enough, server tick gods favor you and you see the CO cloak animation race against the gate decloak animation lol.


Stories of where this bonus works seem to have a trend. Cargo fit BR's. Here I think is the issue. A varying opinion of how to fit BR's. I asked when young and low sp how do I fit my BR guys to corpmates. Being in a 0.0 home they said make that fish as slippery as you can. 0.0 won't give you a scan break on a camp. Nor will low sec people looking to catch you on runs to/from empire.

Also why we won't get a good data call probably. Someone posted Fozzie's statement on this. Data they used for a decision seems off here to me as BR's were balanced on empire bear use apparently (inb4 bear as a slur comment...I am one currently, but I used to PVP and yes...you empire only peeps do things differently to put it as nicely as I can). Usually not the best way to balance things really.


BR's used out of empire as well. For the low sp players with no caps...or hell with caps but no JF's BR's are how we move stuff. Low sp player the whole route to/from out of empire and empire can be BR'd. the cap but no jf pilot....br to the low sec drop-off near empire. A bonus given here of no value to out of empire use.

I go to tama in a br, they have an instalock up or bad things happen....I go boom. Decloaked in a drag, dps on gate....I go boom. Wh'ers not liking me using their wormhole as a quick detour, they catch me...I go boom.

3 sections of eve kill first,, see what's in wreck later without fail, question or hesitation. . Why to me this bonus makes no sense.

Actually they seem to break even.




You don't understand what I am saying. I'm not saying every BR will get ganked, I am saying empty BR are put at much higher risk because of this bonus. Empty BR are now at just high a risk of being ganked as BR with 100 billion in the hold because of this bonus. You don't need data to see this, its very simple logic.

I do understand what you're saying. I have from the beginning. You're trying to protect the ship and I'm trying to protect the cargo. The odds are the same of the BR getting blown up regardless. But the odds also seem to be less than a non-BR industrial carrying the same 100B in the hold, partially because of the bonus. If someone knows I have 100B in the hold, I'm going to get ganked. Even the newbie is going to take a shot for 100B. But if they can't know what I have, then there are going to be a certain number of people who never take the shot making it more likely that my 100B of stuff survives.

The ship's job is to protect the cargo from point A to point B. If scan immunity makes the cargo significantly more likely to survive compared to another industrial where the gankers would know, then the bonus is totally worth it. Even at the cost of some empty BRs. I don't mind losing a few empty ones. It makes it more likely they'll question whether it's even worth it.

We're going to have to agree to disagree there. There are plenty of people to gank. It's easy enough to turn this around and say it's making content for the gankers because now they actually have to figure out who is worth ganking other ways.



This argument is basically saying that ship choice doesn't matter. Of course it's also the pilot's job to protect the cargo, but which ship I choose to fly is part of that equation.



Again, no data.



Your argument here is getting somewhat incomprehensible. First, it's a meaningless bonus, then it's such a good bonus it's not me playing, it CCP. Then you're implying that people who fly BRs and benefit from the bonus are inept?

At this point it just seems like your frustrated that you can't know if a BR is worth ganking. That's the point. Denial of intelligence is something that organizations strive for. It's not random chance, it's the BR pilot picking that hull because it denies the enemy intelligence about their operation. So the ganker is left randomly ganking BRs rather than what the real prize might be. And if the ganker becomes so consistent in their ganking of BRs, that fact, itself, becomes a useful tool to clear a gate camp right before the real target goes through. If I wanted to move several hundred billion ISK through more safely, I would fly a dozen or so BRs near the same point so that the gankers don't know which one has the actual cargo. That planning is content for the BR pilots. That planning is outsmarting your enemy -- a very EVE thing. You can try and spin denial of intelligence as counter to what EVE is about or that it's not a strategy, but I think most people will realize that it's actually quite a useful tool to have.

An aside: A ship that does nothing meaningful is always safe.