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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Privateering License as a concept for ISk sinking/Eve income

First post
Author
Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
#21 - 2016-10-24 19:17:28 UTC
Yeah dude, I'm a suicide ganker and even I can see that this idea is no good. Thanks for trying, though.
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#22 - 2016-10-25 00:31:19 UTC
Galaxy Duck wrote:
Yeah dude, I'm a suicide ganker and even I can see that this idea is no good. Thanks for trying, though.


I wonder if we should have a standardised response form to these. Semi-seriously, in the hope people would read it and see all the other failure modes, some of which I fell into myself early on. Something like:

Your idea:
[X] enables someone to aggress anyone they like in high-sec without CONCORD
--- [ ] provided they are willing to drop 100,000 on the target's bounty first
[ ] is the "just one more nerf" to highsec aggression which will make everything right
[ ] provides a zone of perfect safety which vets will immediately move their operations into when practical
--- [ ] vets and bot armies, rendering it in fact useless for newbros wanting to mine
[ ] does not in fact provide more incentive to hunt people's bounties
[ ] makes it practical for me to collect my bounty with an alt
[ ] requires us to have working locator agents
[ ] contains fundamental misunderstandings of the aggression mechanics as follows:
--- [ ] -5 and below are free targets anyway so who cares
--- [ ] capsuleers in question aren't normally undocked anyway except on their way to a gank
--- [ ] no matter how noble your cause, provoking CONCORD puts a killright on you, too
[ ] would result in constant CONCORDOKKEN from accidental bumping
--- [ ] would then mean Alice can easily contrive for Bob to bump her and thus get CONCORDed
[ ] neglects to consider that undocking is consent to PvP
[ ] consists primarily of armchair psychoanalysis of people you have never met
[ ] is to make industrials combat-equal to warships presumably thus leaving us wondering what warships are for
[ ] was previously tried in [year] and didn't work then

Any more suggestions, oh C&P?
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#23 - 2016-10-25 02:25:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Morgan Agrivar
When I did solo highsec wardecs, I killed quite a few newbies. A couple of them dropped corp right after I killed them but most of them did not.

Now is it the fault of the ganker/war target in where the newbies are not prepared for ganks/wars? The answer is no for both. In regards to ganking, I do believe that something in the New Player Experience should bring the art of ganking up so they are aware of it. A brand new player just starting up would have no clue playing...unless he joins a player run corporation.

If the newbie is part of a player-run corporation and gets ganked or killed during a war, then it falls solely on the CEO of that bad corporation. You cannot comprehend how many kills I got just because the CEO did not prepare (or even tell) his members for the war that I declared on them. In one instance, I killed an afk Venture and pod 15 seconds after the war started. I sat 6km off of her while she mined while I was cloaked in a Hound waiting for the war to start for 12 minutes.

When I got a kill on a newbie, I always messaged them afterwards to see if they were made aware of the war. Not one knew about it, or what it even meant. I would send some isk their way to recoup their loss and give them tips about what happens during a war and how to protect themselves.

Is that my job as their enemy to tell them how to protect themselves? Most highsec corporations are full of fail, you know...if you don't believe me, look at the killboards of all the highsec merc alliances.


TL;DR: If the newbie is in a player-run corporation, it is the fault of the CEO they got ganked/killed in a war. Most highsec player corporations are BADLY run...
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#24 - 2016-10-25 13:47:02 UTC
Morgan Agrivar wrote:
TL;DR: If the newbie is in a player-run corporation, it is the fault of the CEO they got ganked/killed in a war. Most highsec player corporations are BADLY run...


^^^^^^

This a thousand times over.


Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#25 - 2016-10-27 22:16:30 UTC
Thread has been moved to Player Features and Ideas Discussion.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#26 - 2016-10-27 23:59:29 UTC
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:
Thread has been moved to Player Features and Ideas Discussion.

A thread got moved out of crime and punishment to die??? Today was a good day

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Viktor Archangel
Galadriel Enterprises
#27 - 2016-10-28 05:25:47 UTC
Aha Hahahaha, oh God I needed that laugh OP.

CCP: hey guys wanna kill everyone in highsec and not worry about silky wardecs/Concord?
Extremely small minority: yeah buddy, let us elite pvp
CCP: just pay us 1 dollar and start shaving off those highsec subscriptions today!

AhahahahahaLolLolLol
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2016-10-28 19:50:37 UTC
Gou Litvyak wrote:
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:

PS CCP collected statistics given at fanfest about player retention would be a good place to start your search.

Yeah that is leaving out the fact that the ganking/griefing caused more players to leave initially, but the few who stayed stayed longer(which was the point). In the end it hurts player retention on the big scale.


Your evidence of this is what exactly?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2016-10-28 19:55:10 UTC
Gou Litvyak wrote:
You never even looked at the sources you refer to, did you? Reminds me of political discussions, where people refer to documents but none reads them, and base their opinions of what they imagine the sources say.


What was said at fanfest was that the amount of players who got ganked, and stayed, dedicated to EVE long term. That does not mean that all ganked players stay, that wasnt even part of what was presented. Most newbies who got ganked permanently left EVE on the spot, the stats focused on the few who didnt. But thats not how things correlate.

Even if the few who stayed never got griefed/ganked, they would have dedicated to EVE anyways.


Wrong.

What was said was that:

1. Players who lost a ship illegally (i.e. were ganked) in their first 15 days played the longest.
2. Players who lost a ship legally (e.g. a war dec) in their first 15 days played second longest.
3. Players who did not lose a ship in their first 15 days played the shortest time.

As you can see, you claim that ganked players left quickly is not supported by the claims put forth by CCP.

Now, the analysis was not a definitive or comprehensive analysis of ganking, but it does point towards ganking not being the issue with regards to player retention at least early on for players.

Second CCP analysis contradicts exactly your claim that newbies who are ganked quit on the spot.

And you have no data, no analysis, but a load of made up Bravo Sierra.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2016-10-28 19:56:19 UTC
Gou Litvyak wrote:
Since you were also there and didnt understand anything at all, let me put it to you simply.
Ganking newbies makes the majority of them quit....


No, that is exactly the opposite of what CCP Rise said during that presentation.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2016-10-28 19:59:13 UTC
Morgan Agrivar wrote:

TL;DR: If the newbie is in a player-run corporation, it is the fault of the CEO they got ganked/killed in a war. Most highsec player corporations are BADLY run...


Any player corp that brings in new players should tell them the following:

1. You will lose your ship.
2. You will eventually get podded.
3. Get used to it, this is EVE.
4. And keep in mind, you can shoot back. Heck you can even shoot first in various contexts.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2016-10-28 20:05:25 UTC
Viktor Archangel wrote:
Aha Hahahaha, oh God I needed that laugh OP.

CCP: hey guys wanna kill everyone in highsec and not worry about silky wardecs/Concord?
Extremely small minority: yeah buddy, let us elite pvp
CCP: just pay us 1 dollar and start shaving off those highsec subscriptions today!

AhahahahahaLolLolLol


Yes, because making HS safer and safer has lead to a boom in subscriptions...oh...wait. Never mind. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#33 - 2016-10-28 23:18:00 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
...What was said was that:

1. Players who lost a ship illegally (i.e. were ganked) in their first 15 days played the longest.
2. Players who lost a ship legally (e.g. a war dec) in their first 15 days played second longest.
3. Players who did not lose a ship in their first 15 days played the shortest time.

As you can see, you claim that ganked players left quickly is not supported by the claims put forth by CCP.

Now, the analysis was not a definitive or comprehensive analysis of ganking, but it does point towards ganking not being the issue with regards to player retention at least early on for players.

Second CCP analysis contradicts exactly your claim that newbies who are ganked quit on the spot.

And you have no data, no analysis, but a load of made up Bravo Sierra.


I'm not sure I buy that interpretation of the stats. Those that were ganked were probably taking risks and most likely to stay in the game anyway, likewise for those engaging in wardecs. Those that didn't put themselves in those positions very possibly simply didn't like the game.

What would need to be published is the feedback from players who left the game as to why they did so. Anything else is speculation.

Note: I'm not arguing why people stay or leave, I'd just like the raw data, not interpretations of it.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#34 - 2016-10-28 23:44:22 UTC
There must be something wrong with the coloration of the danger levels in New Eden nowadays.

Red: very easy
Dark to bright orange: medium
Green to yellow: very hard

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2016-10-29 07:50:15 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
...What was said was that:

1. Players who lost a ship illegally (i.e. were ganked) in their first 15 days played the longest.
2. Players who lost a ship legally (e.g. a war dec) in their first 15 days played second longest.
3. Players who did not lose a ship in their first 15 days played the shortest time.

As you can see, you claim that ganked players left quickly is not supported by the claims put forth by CCP.

Now, the analysis was not a definitive or comprehensive analysis of ganking, but it does point towards ganking not being the issue with regards to player retention at least early on for players.

Second CCP analysis contradicts exactly your claim that newbies who are ganked quit on the spot.

And you have no data, no analysis, but a load of made up Bravo Sierra.


I'm not sure I buy that interpretation of the stats. Those that were ganked were probably taking risks and most likely to stay in the game anyway, likewise for those engaging in wardecs. Those that didn't put themselves in those positions very possibly simply didn't like the game.

What would need to be published is the feedback from players who left the game as to why they did so. Anything else is speculation.

Note: I'm not arguing why people stay or leave, I'd just like the raw data, not interpretations of it.


Now you are making stuff up out of whole clothe vs. relying on what was stated in the presentation

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2016-10-29 07:57:52 UTC
To be quite honest I find the responses to CCP's look at ganking of new players a bit annoying.

1. CCP don't know how to do statistical analysis, thus the results are garbage.
2. The results are not statistically invalid for :reasons:
3. Tell some just so stories to explain the behavior of hundreds even thousands of players.
4. New players who are ganked quit right on the spot and thus are not in the data set.

How about you just listen to the presentation and accept that the results are just what they are?

Either that or kindly have a nice cup of STFU about data and evidence, because after listening to all these Bravo Sierra reasons why that analysis was "seriously flawed" I am left to conclude that those making such claims will not be moved be any amount of data or analysis. You are dogmatic buffoon and whining about data is nothing more than an attempt to hide your dogmatism behind lies. It really comes across as this, "What?!?!? Nooooo!!!! My preconceived notions!!!!!"

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#37 - 2016-10-29 08:50:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
One way or another, whether you believe in CCP's data or not, this idea in itself is utter garbage and absolutely redundant because we already have 4/5 of the game designated as areas where you can engage anything you like freely and without or just minor limitiations. There's no need to argue about it at all and doing so is wasted time. End of story. What's more annoying than the suggestion itself is that people keep getting this thread up to the top every day since it got moved here...

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#38 - 2016-10-29 10:51:18 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
One way or another, whether you believe in CCP's data or not, this idea in itself is utter garbage and absolutely redundant because we already have 4/5 of the game designated as areas where you can engage anything you like freely and without or just minor limitiations. There's no need to argue about it at all and doing so is wasted time. End of story. What's more annoying than the suggestion itself is that people keep getting this thread up to the top every day since it got moved here...

So you decided to give it a friendly bump?

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Sitting Bull Lakota
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#39 - 2016-10-31 11:20:32 UTC
Remove faction police from highsec. <-5.0 Players could travel freely in highsec with their hard earned perma-pvp flags. They could engage eachother anywhere and be valid targets for the rest of highsec's population.

That would open highsec up to more violence without making it overly dangerous for those who don't wish to partake.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#40 - 2016-10-31 14:44:09 UTC
NO to the OP idea, we do not need an unrestricted killing license for high sec and that is exactly what this would become.

It is good to see that both sides of ganking / war decs versus player retention argument continues with blinders firmly in place as usual. The data given at fan fest proves nothing with regards to ganking / war decs and there affects on player retention positive or negative. I could go on for pages with the reasons why but most of you would not believe me even if I did and to be honest this neither the place nor the time to go into them.