Science & Industry

But that's not "playing together", that's just a passive renter relationship like we have for offshoring citadels to save costs.

EDIT: I thought CCP wants to reduce passive incomes for big groups/players? They just introduce one new source after the other by funneling former NPC fees into player pocket.

I'm pessimistic, there will never be enough trust to build and mutually defend shared structures between otherwise independent entities. It will be either you have a big alliance / corp as backup or enough ISK to buy all the defense you need.

I really wish there was a definitive answer on if POS's are going to be taken out/when, I was ready to do the POS thing but held back on setting one up, guess on the + side maybe I will be able to get those skills related to them moved.

I'm not the target for these questions but i can give some answers:

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- Why I should defend the structure if I am not part of the owner group? You think that I would lose my ships for some other player out of the goodness of my heart? Unless the value of the jobs that I am running is higher than the probable loss of ships I have no reason to throw good money after bad trying to defend something owned by a group to which I don't belong.
Let's say you are renter. You use this citadel for something. Having stuff in it: materials. BPCs, etc. Having jobs.
If the citadel gets killed your stuff gets delayed and you might need to pay some tax to get it back.
And/or you lose time you spent on your non-completed jobs.

Is it enough to care about defending the citadel? I guess it is only you can say.

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- And how I will defend it if I am not part of the owner group and so I am not on their teamspeak, forums and other shared sources of information? You think that impromptu defensive fleet of random guys will be viable? With haphazard use of support ships and no comms?
Ever heard about Bombers Bar or Spectre Fleet? They somehow deal with strangers and do kill nice stuff.
You offer your assistance and owners of citadel can use it or they cannot but then they will be replaced by others. That's evolution.

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- How I will manage CONCORD? They will defend the citadel attackers if they have a war dec against the citadel owner and destroy my ship.
Join war as ally of defender and you are ok.


That's the way of civilization. Bigger groups always have upper hand. And smaller ones thrive in small areas which are not interesting for bigger ones.

This isn't really complete.

The system index was never intended to promote completely scattered production - it was intended to deter everyone-builds-within-one-jump-of-a-trade-hub hyper-centralization.

Combined with teams, it was supposed to promote clustering. Teams didn't work out, and, combined with the high mobility of a POS, we're left with this really silly situation where "nomadic factories" are a thing. There's a good chance ECs could fill the role teams were supposed to, albeit through a slightly different mechanism.

The most fundamentally broken thing about index costs right now is the ease with which they're almost completely avoided. That cost is SUPPOSED to be paid, and it seems likely that, with ECs, the amount paid to index costs will generally be higher than it is today.

There is nothing inherently broken about that, on a systemic level, though it is certainly a deterrent to early adoption while POS continue to function as they do. Once fully transitioned, everyone will have the exact same problem of balancing index and fuel costs Vs. material savings benefits, which will eventually be reflected in pricing, and the only real difference will be that production sinks more ISK out of the economy.

I think CCP are dropping a ball here, and are hacking folk off in the process.

Eliminating small solo industrialists from their production and forcing them to play with others is a bad thing to force onto people. I use an Alt wholly for producing BPC's and run a small POS. (On my own - I love it - and its a big part of the game for me)

I don't want to play with others on that account, i don't want to share POS's or complexes or structures with others. I have a main that does all that already in null...

Sometimes folk just want to chill and do things on their own away from the mad crowds of being in a larger corp/alliance.

The thing i use to like about Eve was it gave you the choice to play individually or as a group as and when you wanted - It seems that with every new patch they are trying to take this choice away from people and force them into having to play completely in a group scenario.

I get that group play is a massive part of the game and enjoy that aspect also, but come on CCP - Try to cater for everyone's play style, most of us do have alts paying you two or more sub's to play more than 1 playstyle - You must know that...

I have done various testing on test server and for my scenario (copying BPO's) a medium complex is out the question (its far too slow per copy) compared to my current POS and design lab in HS. If i move up to the large which matches (actually is sightly faster) my current small POS setup the price and risk of loosing the complex compared to a small POS is just mental...

That leaves me with no other option than to hold onto my current POS for as long as possible - Until you force me into removing it. Then i will have to go and either:

A) find someone elses public structure to use....
B) run copies in a NPC station
C) Run a large complex at massive overheads (to match my current output)
D) Take a hit on all my reserch jobs

Big thumbs down there.... A patch like this should be fun and exciting with folk clawing at the bit to get hold of one of these new structures - Instead nobody (on a Solo level anyway) wants to use them... lol

Deffo no sand to move in the big box for the solo indy guy once you remove our POS's - As you can tell from most peoples posts in this thread mega disappointing.

o/

Please enlighten us as to where you are getting your figures from? Believe me i would absolutely love to be wrong and 100% hope i am, however

As i said before i have done testing in person on Sisi, in the same HS system using a small POS with design lab vs a Medium engineering complex with both T2 speed and T2 cost rigs for BPO copying.

The time it takes to complete the copies is way worse in the complex than the POS and design lab. I then anchored a large complex and as per my earlier post that is when it matches albeit a slight improvement copy time over pos with lab.

Most POS aren't faction though, so you're comparing the MECs to the gold-plated POS.

Regardless of MEC/POS cost, you're now having to **** about shuffling materials between different MECs - even in a POS moving materials between arrays was horrible so having to warp instead of click is going to be even worse. Oops you left stuff in the wrong MEC? 1 minute warp until you can carry on setting off your build jobs. Not fun.

The interesting thing about manufacturing is working out what's best to build given the current and (predicted) future market conditions. What's not particularly fun is interacting with the laggy manufacturing window to set off jobs, and moving materials between different POS arrays. Those who build in outposts or stations don't have to deal with this at the moment, but the forced over-specialisation (even the slightly less strict version in Fozzie's latest post) means that anybody building more than a few items will find themselves engaged in the tedious business of shifting materials between ECs.

The new vision of POS manufacture involves more time spent on the boring stuff, warping components and materials around between ECs, so its likely to be a good deal less fun for many.

That said, Lowsec in particular sees a clear improvement from these changes - it might be worth building more than just capitals there for a lot of people now, but its not really clear that multiple ECs is going to be more enjoyable to build in than either outposts or POS.

T2 Rigs are not practical, given their cost.

Some people also seem to be missing the fact that unlike a POS, the rig bonuses are for specific items and processes only. You can no longer adapt to market demand fluctuations.

Example: T2 manufacturing
* Copy time + cost
* Invention time + cost
* T2 component manufacturing material + time + cost
* T1 item manufacturing material + time + cost
* T2 item manufacturing material + time + cost
That's 13 specializations to cover, which will require multiple EC.

Raitaru
ME: 1%
ME + T1 rig: 3.02%
ME + T2 rig: 3.424%

Time: 15%
Time + T1 rig: 32%
Time + T2 rig: 35.4%

Cost: 3%
Cost + T1 rig: 12.7%
Cost + T2 rig: 14.64%

Azbel
ME: 1%
ME + T1 rig: 3.02%
ME + T2 rig: 3.424%

Time: 20%
Time + T1 rig: 36%
Time + T2 rig: 39.2%

Cost: 4%
Cost + T1 rig: 13.6%
Cost + T2 rig: 15.52%

Sotiyo
ME: 1%
ME + T1 rig: 3.02%
ME + T2 rig: 3.424%

Time: 30%
Time + T1 rig: 44%
Time + T2 rig: 46.8%

Cost: 5%
Cost + T1 rig: 14.5%
Cost + T2 rig: 6.4%

POS: applies to all items
* 2% ME
* 10% cost reduction
* 25% manufacturing time reduction
* 35% ME time reduction
* 35% TE time reduction
* 40% copy time reduction
* 50% invention time reduction
* 52% Reprocessing reduction

No this was not assumed merely not worth stating. All of the profit and volume around jita are in t1/t2 rigs + BC and cruiser hulls, each set of which is easily covered by two mediums, or a large and a medium fit and rigged properly, for similar cost and productivity as a large POS. Inducing more specialization (or to force small groups to glom) in the production sphere doesn't a priori result in reduced profit per unit effort so the change is irreverent. Different is not worse, merely different.