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Is it possible to blitz in a missile ship effectively? lvl3s or 4s?

Author
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#21 - 2016-10-17 17:55:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Owen Levanth
Codris McKalley wrote:
Typical story, returning player wanting to enjoy the new space ships Big smile

Before leaving and even now, I can only play every now and again, so I play missions with a lot skills invested in missiles.

Is it possible to blitz lvl 3s in a missile ship like the drake? I know back in the day it was possible, but is it still today?

side note: I do have some drone skills, but nothing great. Doing 4s in a rattlesnake now.

Edit: clarifying my meaning of "heavy missile skills"


If you want heavy missiles and blitzing level 3s, you'll probably go with a Tengu or one of the missile HACs. Go long range and everything dies before it can get to you, including frigates. Like with artillery it'll take longer than a pure gun fit, but it's still relatively fast.

In level 4s I was blitzing with a cruise-Raven and later with a cruise-Golem. The Golem was actually faster since I could just hang around 100km away and blast everything apart with astonishing ease. The E-War immunity of Marauders was a nice help, too. No stupid ECM or Sensor-Damping taking away your locks anymore!

If you want to be really mean to the NPCs and want to use your heavy missile skills to great effect, fit a missile battleship like the Raven or the Typhoon with RHMLs and concentrate your fitting on making your ship faster and easier to handle. Then just tear everything in a level 3 mission apart like a god smiting down the heathens.

A Machariel is nice for blitzing if you can stand the look of that hideous thing. I can't, I count it among the my personal top 3 for ugliest ship in EVE.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#22 - 2016-10-17 21:16:55 UTC
Nikea Tiber wrote:
I've already run the cynnabal, 720s do have a pretty slow cycle time, though with my SP 1-2 shells from 720s will pop a frigate, factoring in time to get to range and ammo economy, I'd rather run arties for pve anyhow. The ultimate arty platform is probably the sleipnir due to the absolutely crushing damage modifier you can get on 720s, but I digress.
If a mach is clearing L3s faster than a tengu, you might want to switch to rapid lights over HMLs or HAMs since they will apply damage better to the small - medium sized targets that exist in L3s. At best, in an L3 a mach will apply (at its 3km optimal) roughly 65% of its total paper dps if you are shooting a battlecruiser. This is not due to tracking, this is due to signature resolution of the targets in L3 missions vs the signature resolution of large guns, something that running tracking computers can help with, but they will never fully fix the application problem, which incidentally, is the same root cause for HMLs and HAMs also having crap application in L3s. Between sig resolution of guns and sig resolution of its targeting systems, the mach is better suited to blowing us battleships, for L3 completion a cruiser or battlecruiser sized hull is a lot more efficient. I'm not saying the mach sucks or is useless, because it is demonstrably the best BS sized hull at the moment, but that hardly means it is the best ship in the game for everything, because it isn't.
I'm going to go out on a limb and make the claim that at least half the people posting here don't know how signature resolution and falloff influence actual applied dps; the mach is great, but not as godly as everyone likes to think it is.


I was using 250mm T2 rails with Caldari Antimatter. They have a 3.1 cycle time. As I said targets were dropping very fast. Going to any type of missile system will be slower.
With the Mach, he was able to split is guns up, and that's why he was a little faster in that part of the BLITZ. Even though is optimal was at 3km, reaching out farther there was plenty of gank to clear the field quickly.

I agree, that the Mach isn't "the best ship in the game for everything". That's the whole reason why I tried fitting other ships to beat the Mach. The Mach was called the "King of L3s", and just about everyone was agreeing with that. Now maybe not so much, as my little Tengu dethroned it.

I'll have my alt BLITZ a few more L3s, to refresh my memory on the number of volleys for each type of NPC. Most were one shots, some others two. Maybe some elite cruisers took 3, but now I'm only guessing.

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.

Sentenced 1989
#23 - 2016-10-22 11:24:29 UTC
So, I've tried 3 ships for L3 bitzing

Following fits

Quote:

[Proteus, PVE L3]
Corelum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Shadow Serpentis Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

50MN Microwarpdrive II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Large Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump II

Proteus Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Proteus Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Offensive - Dissonic Encoding Platform
Proteus Propulsion - Gravitational Capacitor

Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M x10000
Federation Navy Lead Charge M x5000


Quote:

[Tengu, PVE L3]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Gist C-Type EM Ward Field
Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Corelum C-Type 50MN Microwarpdrive

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Propulsion - Gravitational Capacitor
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir

Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile x14000


Quote:

[Machariel, PVE Shield Autocannon L3]
Large Armor Repairer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer

Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
500MN Microwarpdrive II

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II

Curator II x4
Hobgoblin II x5
Republic Fleet EMP L x7000
Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L x7000
Republic Fleet Fusion L x7000
Targeting Range Script x1
Scan Resolution Script x1
Barrage L x2000
Sentenced 1989
#24 - 2016-10-22 11:25:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentenced 1989
Now, the numbers

Proteus / Tengu / Mach
DPS: 731 / 609 / 1086 ( +hobs: 99, +curators: 205 )

Now, mach wins this hands down, but there is rarely good opportunity to drop sentries, so mostly you would be using hobs if you use drones at all. Still Mach has most dps. More about this later in damage application.

Proteus / Tengu / Mach
Speed: 202 (1383) / 231 (1392) / 191 (1455)

Now here, sublight speed is pretty much similar on paper. In reality it is a bit more complicated. First of all you rarely need that speed, maybe to pick up mission objective. Even though Mach is fastest, it can't track and hit stuff unless flying directly to them and they flying directly to you or from you (0 transversal). Howerer that didn't pose any issues after 20 minutes of adjusting how to use the ship. Proteus on other hand has way more margin on what he can hit. Still you won't be able to hit frigates / faster cruisers that are orbiting you (but with that speed you force them out of orbit really really fast and then they die). Tengu does not have issues with tracking due to it's own speed, so it wins this round I guess. But in reality not that much of a win.

Proteus / Tengu / Mach
Warp: 4.9 / 4.9 / 4.6
Align: 5.6s / 5.1s / 8.5s

Now, in warp T3's are faster then Mach. But Mach is not far behind and you can mostly ignore final align time from inside mission because once you see your trigger which completes the mission, you can just start aligning while shooting it. Also if you use ascendancy you can get warp speed 7.7 / 7.7 / 7.2 which while having bigger gap does not play to much role, even Mach on that 7.2 is extremely fast in warp acceleration and deceleration.


Now other things where experience beats the numbers

Machariel can one shot some frigates with 2 guns, would say about 70% of times if they are more then 20km from you. If they come below 18km, you will most likely have to either use drones to finish it or you will have to use mwd to burn out and then blap it as it is trying to approach you (you are way faster then any NPC ship). When it comes to bigger targets DPS application is great. Shooting at cruiser size targets still gives you about 750 - 850 dps at 50km range (depending on your skills and if they suck you can still burn with MWD pretty fast to lover the distance). Also I've noticed not so many missions have that range.

Proteus is also great to run 2/2/2 or 3/3 gun configuration, great damage application, but after 30km it starts dropping. So you either have to change ammo in that case or burn for targets. At 50km you can expect about 450 dps. Howevever it's tracking is great and also beacuse being locked to one damage type it is easier to keep your ammo in check and also it is limiting when it comes to shooting at Amarr / Matarr based ships. Overall though nice little ship.

Tengu... ah... I don't know, I've spent overall about 20-25 hours in this ship hull in general. I've tried L3, L4 and what not, and each time I was dissapointed. People are always elavating this ship and in reality there is always other ships which do multiple things better then tengu. The only real usage here I could see is maybe lowsec / 0.0 exploration, because it is smaller ship which can get crazy tank numbers and apply dps while under ewar. However for highsec, this ship is terrible. While for Machariel takes 10-20 minutes adjusting once you start to see what you can hit at what range, same goes for Protues, with Tengu you should count you missile shots so you don't waste DPS. In about 20% of cases it would fire on stuff which was already dead. That gives you 20% less dps. Also in situations where Mach would drop 4 frigates in volley, my tengu was taking it's time and doing one frigate per volley. This really isn't fast blitzing that you want. There are some missions where you have to clear an room for objective to unlock / appear / etc and tengu is taking it's time.

I could give out more information, but this is already getting long, so for any other things feel free to ask or check in EFT.

Overall, I would stick to either Mach / Protues depending on which you can fly/use better. For me, I prefer to take Protues because slighty faster, better tracking and easier to get ammo (with mach you need EMP, PP and Fussion, where with Protues load Antimatter and forget about it for few days). Also not so many missions need Machariels range. Good thing that Mach can do though is lock 7 frigates in 6.9s while Proteus does 5 frigates in 6.2 seconds. In most cases I found that I need to lock 6 ships, which is fine for Mach, but for Proteus you need to kill one ship to lock the last one. Also Mach has tractor beam so you can start pulling wreck from 24km towards yourself and start aligning out at the same time which gives you few extra seconds to spare.

I did not test rail tengu in L3, but looking at pure numbers, all of then were either worse or similiar to Proteus (with tracking being way worse), so I didn't bother.

Disclaimer:
Machariel is my favorite ship in this game, but in last year and half it didn't see much usage.
If I do l3 missions I will most likely opt for Proteus, if I do l4 missions I will most likely opt for Vargur due to ewar immunity while in bastion.

So, while yea, blitzing l3 in tengu as missile boat is efficient and doable, sticking to guns beats in PVE. Overall I would say if Mach and Proteus can make 50 mill per hour, Tengu can do 43-45 mill per hour (arbitrary numbers).
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#25 - 2016-10-22 13:10:29 UTC
Good analysis, however,

For comparisons you didn't use similar fits.

The Mach has warp speed rigs, the Proteus and Tengu do not.
You used missiles instead of rails on the Tengu, (but you said that)
There were more application mods on the Mach

The optimal on the Proteus is about 18km. In a rail Tengu, optimal is about 36km. They both have the same tracking, .049.

Just seems you favored the Mach in it's fit.

Anyway, that was a lot of work for you. Good job.

I don't fly a Proteus, or a Mach. But from what I have experienced in BLITZING L3s, I would put the ships in this order.

Proteus (looks better than the Tengu on paper)
Tengu (beat the Mach in BLITZING)
Mach

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.

Sentenced 1989
#26 - 2016-10-22 14:08:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentenced 1989
Ion Kirst wrote:

The Mach has warp speed rigs, the Proteus and Tengu do not.


They don't because they have warp speed in subsystem. You need them on Mach to get it up to reasonable +6AU (anything less then that takes to long to accelerate/decelerate)


Regarding the ranges, there is 2-3 missions where I am considering swapping ammo or have to use MWD for 10 seconds to get in better range for optimal.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#27 - 2016-10-22 15:05:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
Sentenced 1989 wrote:
Ion Kirst wrote:

The Mach has warp speed rigs, the Proteus and Tengu do not.


They don't because they have warp speed in subsystem. You need them on Mach to get it up to reasonable +6AU (anything less then that takes to long to accelerate/decelerate)


Regarding the ranges, there is 2-3 missions where I am considering swapping ammo or have to use MWD for 10 seconds to get in better range for optimal.


The Mach has a built in 50% bonus to warp speed and warp acceleration to begin with. It also has more dps that is "built in".

That puts the Tengu and the Proteus at the disadvantage to start with. For the BLITZING between Stoic's Mach and my Tengu, everything was on the table. Anything out there could be use to what ever advantage necessary. In order to compensate with the huge dps of the Mach compared to the Tengu, the Tengu had to go faster. It was the overall time that mattered.

If the Mach was using 3 tracking computers, I used 3 tracking computers. If the Mach used warp speed rigs, I used warp speed rigs. Same/same.

In BLITZING, if you had to waste 10 secs to get into position, you already lost the race. Seconds counted.

In regular blitzing missions, you don't have to go fast at all. You can take as much time as needed, because you're only doing the minimum about to complete the mission.

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.

Kaivarian Coste
High Sec Express
#28 - 2016-10-22 15:31:02 UTC
So if blitzing, how does lvl 3 compare to lvl 4 missions in terms of isk/hr?
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#29 - 2016-10-22 18:20:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ion Kirst
Kaivarian Coste wrote:
So if blitzing, how does lvl 3 compare to lvl 4 missions in terms of isk/hr?


Here is the post that started this all:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=345580

He said in BLITZING L3s in a Mach he was earning about 86M/hr (if I remember correctly)

Somewhere in his post he also had a link to a spread sheet to show all the numbers.

Here is the spread sheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h306ZgBhosPEhIHIeC73ZgTSU45toONKW_p078ytQUo/edit#gid=0

To BLITZ mission after mission, and keep track of everything, is not easy to do. o7

If someone BLITZED L4s at the same pace, hair on fire, going all out as fast as you can, I don't know what the isk/hr would be.


-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.

Kaivarian Coste
High Sec Express
#30 - 2016-10-23 11:41:36 UTC
^ That figure's pretty reasonable. Thanks.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#31 - 2016-10-24 03:44:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
FWIW I have "blitzed" missions in a T2 cruise CNR and T2 AC Machariel. What the CNR loses in flight time the Mach loses in flying time (to get in range of things to shoot).

Overall I was better at flying the CNR than the Machariel, so my ISK/hr based on 2000 ISK/LP was around 110M for the CNR, 85M for the Machariel. My Mach pilot is having much better luck in a Rattlesnake, and I am training my CNR pilot to switch to that platform.

Flight time for missiles is less relevant than shooting the right targets, and being aligned to warp out as soon as mission objectives are completed. A significant waste of time when "blitzing" in battleships is warping. Mission in small systems with small neighbours, meaning Lanngisi is out since Barkrik consistently has 120AU warps to mission sites. Or run L3s in cruisers.

Note that flight time for cruise missiles hitting targets 80km away is less than the cycle time of large artillery. You can be firing two salvos at cruisers, select the next target, and have another salvo in flight before an artillery turret has a second salvo off.

The most significant improvement in ISK/hr comes from keeping a whitelist of missions which are worth more than 100M ISK/hr, a grey list of missions you can run when you do not want to decline any more, and then declining missions which are not going to be profitable. This strategy alone can boost your income by a factor of two, since you skip junk missions like "Duo of Death" and "XYZ Spies" which chew up valuable time warping back and forth.

The difference in mission time between applying 1400 effective dps with missiles versus turrets is negligible as long as you count salvos, know how many are required for each target, and get to the next gate or align to warp out so you can leave each room as soon as objectives are met. Using autocannons will ruin your completion times since you have to get close to targets to shoot them. A MWD battleship always travels slower than cruise missiles.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#32 - 2016-10-31 22:49:49 UTC
The only thing I will add is that most of these ISK/hour numbers are running SoE missions in ideal systems. Run-of-the-mill Empire agents are going to yield probably 1/3-1/2 less ISK/hour because the LP/ISK conversion rate is nowhere near as lucrative. If you're going to blitz, combine it with Burner missions and you can potentially make upwards of 200m ISK/hour.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#33 - 2016-10-31 22:55:44 UTC
The Barghest is fairly decent for blitzing L3s (albeit more expensive than some of the other options suggested).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#34 - 2016-11-15 15:34:56 UTC
I've done extensive testing and the answer to your original question is.. it depends :)

But yes, currently I user a RHML Barghest to blitz most lv4 blitzable missions. It's on average just as effective as a blitzing Machariel (but easier to use). That said I use an arty Mach for Scarlet and I use a Polarised AC Vargur for Angels Pirate Assault.

In fact I have 3 BS, 3 Cruisers and 7 Frigates that I use to blitz with depending on the mission.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Kethen T'val
Dontopiax Mining Inc.
#35 - 2016-11-16 09:59:07 UTC
havent read the thread but incase noone mentioned it. HAM Tengu for lvl 4 is pretty good at Blizing
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#36 - 2016-11-16 18:48:41 UTC
Kethen T'val wrote:
havent read the thread but incase noone mentioned it. HAM Tengu for lvl 4 is pretty good at Blizing

Been testing a HAM tengu as well, it's solid but lacks in range so it loses out on a bit of damage it could be doing while closing. That said if that's what you've got skills for and lacks skills for Mach/Barghest then by all means.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Voxinian
#37 - 2016-11-17 02:47:59 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Maybe an Orthrus? Minimizes the flight time issue. This is probably overkill/too expensive but it might do the trick:




Orthrus with rapid lights will do in most L3s.
Cthulhu Fthagn
Yaxchilan
#38 - 2016-11-18 18:38:50 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
I've done extensive testing and the answer to your original question is.. it depends :)

But yes, currently I user a RHML Barghest to blitz most lv4 blitzable missions. It's on average just as effective as a blitzing Machariel (but easier to use). That said I use an arty Mach for Scarlet and I use a Polarised AC Vargur for Angels Pirate Assault.

In fact I have 3 BS, 3 Cruisers and 7 Frigates that I use to blitz with depending on the mission.


Are the fittings in your guide still up to date?
You've inspired me to try and blitz missions.
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