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The ahole, the troll and the scammer – an Eve phenomenon?

First post
Author
Big Lynx
#1 - 2016-10-22 10:26:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Big Lynx
Well, I’ve been around a certain time in this universe of Eve. I met a lot of people, who became very good long-year friends, even outside of the game. I am a human being who interacts open-minded and always friendly to everyone new I meet up in game and/or in real-life, due to my education and social environment I assume. If the opposite human being is just rude, has an unhealthy amount of egoism and is not capable to form arguments to a specific topic and tends to initiate some kind of quarrel (without any sense of humour, besides his own), i try to be calm and if I can’t see and end or a solution, I go away and stop to meet or talk to those individals.

I played different MMOs like SWTOR and GW2 for quite long time and the fact, that there is no (allowed) form of scam in those games existant, leads me to the deduction, that the concentration of dubious and shady individals in Eve is significantly higher compared to other MMOs.

[Don’t get me wrong: I love the special kind of sarcasm and trashtalk in eve. The meme-wars and salt-extraction, all positioned in a „healthy“ sandbox without spilling out the sand of it.]

So, one of my question to you is: Being a scammer, using exploits, being rude to other people = ahole = causality or correlation?.
It’s just my personal evaluation of recent and last years scandals in this game, plus certain negative-minded individals that I met though out my entire Eve Career.

Would those assumptions mean, that Eve attracts people who like to be the a-hole in real-life and want to intensify this habit in a virtual world?
The argument „those are children playing just a computer game and want tob e funny“ is weak, because 80% of ppl I came across are in their late 20s or plus 30s and older.

How would Eve develop if CCP bans any form of scamming on 8th November? It’s just that, sometimes I feel a bit sorry for CCP because they have to deal with that increasing kind of self-comitted load on themselves (because Eve is a harsh and cold world), like the recent example of the so-called „I am Olivia“-scam.

Discuss..
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#2 - 2016-10-22 10:42:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
I don't play any other game, so I can't offer an opinion on the relationship between the Eve community and others.

What I have experienced is that almost every single person I have met in Eve is a normal, well-adjusted person that I would gladly share a beer with if I was fortunate enough to be able to buy them one.

The few rotten apples don't spoil the bunch. They are just rotten themselves and they aren't an Eve phenomena. They exist everywhere.

So, on the issue of in game scams, no change needed.

CCP do a good job of weeding out the few that don't play within the rules and that's enough in my view.
Big Lynx
#3 - 2016-10-22 10:44:27 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
I don't play any other game, so I can't offer an opinion on the relationship between the Eve community and others.

What I have experienced is that almost every single person I have met in Eve is a normal, well-adjusted person that I would gladly share a beer with if I was fortunate enough to be able to buy them one.

The few rotten apples don't spoil the bunch. They are just rotten themselves and they aren't an Eve phenomena. They exist everywhere.

So, on the issue of in game scams, no change needed.

CCP do a good job of weeding out the few that don't play within the rules and that's enough in my view.

fair enaf. cool cap u have there
Quenching Waters
Doomheim
#4 - 2016-10-22 10:53:33 UTC
Don't know about GW2 or SWTOR, but I have heard of scams in WoW involving paying for carries and then being kicked from the instance. And GMs will say to those stung: "Buyer Beware".

So I'd say that EVE may not be an outlier in attracting unpleasant players. If anything, I've found less unpleasantness here.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#5 - 2016-10-22 10:57:28 UTC
What's prompted this?
Has anyone of note (I.e. a dev or gm) made any rumblings that ingame skaming or general asshatery might change?

If it's just the Olivia thing then it's unlikely to have an effect as that's either
A) someone in need of emotional and mental health services being dumped on by a few degenerate ****heads
And should be dealt with on an individual basis

Or

B) An out of game skam designed to take advantage of people's generosity and community spirit
Which also should be dealt with on an individual basis

When someone takes it too far it's really up to CCP and the GM'S to address,
much like the E1 ****show a couple of years ago, those kinds of iinflammatory issues should delt with quickly , quietly and efficiently.
it's not supposed to be a public lynching because they've been known to get devicive ,ugly and really really poisonous to the community spirit.

Keep it Ingame lads, if ye can't go sling yer hook elsewhere, simple.
Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
#6 - 2016-10-22 11:05:51 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:

So, one of my question to you is: Being a scammer, using exploits, being rude to other people = ahole = causality or correlation?


From personal experience I have yet to see some form of co-occurrence between scamming/exploitation and rudeness. While FPS's and other directly competitive game genres are usually thought of as containing the highest level of rudeness in chat and voicecoms, I found cooperative environments such as MOBAs or MMO Raids far worse. I would even argue that the safety of not-being-attackable via ingame means, just like the anonymity of internet communication, can act as a stimulus for abandoning decency.
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2016-10-22 11:19:35 UTC  |  Edited by: sero Hita
Big Lynx wrote:
Well, I’ve been around a certain time in this universe of Eve. I met a lot of people, who became very good long-year friends, even outside of the game. I am a human being who interacts open-minded and always friendly to everyone new I meet up in game and/or in real-life, due to my education and social environment I assume. If the opposite human being is just rude, has an unhealthy amount of egoism and is not capable to form arguments to a specific topic and tends to initiate some kind of quarrel (without any sense of humour, besides his own), i try to be calm and if I can’t see and end or a solution, I go away and stop to meet or talk to those individals.

I played different MMOs like SWTOR and GW2 for quite long time and the fact, that there is no (allowed) form of scam in those games existant, leads me to the deduction, that the concentration of dubious and shady individals in Eve is significantly higher compared to other MMOs.

[Don’t get me wrong: I love the special kind of sarcasm and trashtalk in eve. The meme-wars and salt-extraction, all positioned in a „healthy“ sandbox without spilling out the sand of it.]

So, one of my question to you is: Being a scammer, using exploits, being rude to other people = ahole = causality or correlation?.
It’s just my personal evaluation of recent and last years scandals in this game, plus certain negative-minded individals that I met though out my entire Eve Career.

Would those assumptions mean, that Eve attracts people who like to be the a-hole in real-life and want to intensify this habit in a virtual world?
The argument „those are children playing just a computer game and want tob e funny“ is weak, because 80% of ppl I came across are in their late 20s or plus 30s and older.

How would Eve develop if CCP bans any form of scamming on 8th November? It’s just that, sometimes I feel a bit sorry for CCP because they have to deal with that increasing kind of self-comitted load on themselves (because Eve is a harsh and cold world), like the recent example of the so-called „I am Olivia“-scam.

Discuss..


Interesting. I was playing a lot of SWTOR PVP queing and it was full of A holes unwarranted saying you should kill yourself and other personal attacks, where I have never been told that in EVE, so my impression was actually that the real psycological abuse is generally less in EVE. I know of the 2-3 extreme cases here in EVE, but 2-3 cases does not a correlation make IMO.

For clarification I don't think scamming without being rude falls under abuse, it is just usage of available game mechanics.

As for the correlation causality question, I think people are too complex to describe in such a manner. One can be a perfectly nice person under some conditions, and an ahole under others when pushed. Everyone has this duality aspect in them IMO (to varying degress ofc.), so trying to label some people due how they behave in a game, based on a fraction of their actions without considering the whole sum of all their actions in game and in RL is at best not really appropriate IMO.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker

Memphis Baas
#8 - 2016-10-22 11:55:59 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
I played different MMOs like SWTOR and GW2 for quite long time and the fact, that there is no (allowed) form of scam in those games existant, leads me to the deduction, that the concentration of dubious and shady individals in Eve is significantly higher compared to other MMOs.


I'm not sure that your deduction is true. It may be correct from your point of view, but as others have said, their experiences differ.

I've seen plenty of shady and dubious individuals in other MMO's, including the ones you've mentioned. They do whatever asshattery the game allows them to do:

- stealing kills or loot
- being rude and NSFW in groups
- Leroy Jenkins'ing raids repeatedly on purpose
- awoxing in PVP battlegrounds
- spying for the opposite team
- scamming the AH or via in-game mail

I would say that, in other games, asshats are more restricted in what they can do, but that doesn't mean there's fewer of them.

The general consensus for EVE players is that they're very nice and normal individuals towards their corp- and alliance-mates, but otherwise completely don't care about the random stranger, to the point that the stranger gets treated as an NPC, and abused with all the allowed gameplay mechanics, from PVP to scamming etc. Do you treat the NPC's nicely? I'm guessing that you apply whatever combat and looting the game allows, without feelings or politeness. So if you're not my corp-mate, politeness is nice, but ultimately you're just an (NPC) target to me.

Anyway, it's difficult to get an actual count of the "dubious and shady" in EVE vs. other games; I'm guessing that the only people with any sort of statistics in this regard would be the customer support people. Only they can count the number of asshat-caused tickets and petitions, and possibly give a ratio of how many there are vs. the game's playerbase.

As a (lone) player, the best that you can do is:

1. Play solo (so you're exposed to the maximum number of people who don't care about you, and to the minimum number of friends), and

2. Look at how big your /ignore list is, in other games vs. in EVE.

I know that I've maxed out my /ignore and /block lists in most MMO's I've played, except EVE, actually. So that would be a counterpoint to your premise, actually.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2016-10-22 12:04:59 UTC
EVE players I've met are a mixed bunch. None of them have been the younger starcraft or CS:GO types, however. They are mostly late twenties or older, sometimes much older.

When people mention EVE player culture as toxic I assume it's because it is comprised of older adults who are especially capable of having huge ******* chips on their shoulders and being very pissed off about whatever their problems are.
Memphis Baas
#10 - 2016-10-22 12:05:04 UTC
Oh, and EVE attracts players like every other game: primarily based on the shine of its graphics, then based on its genre (sci-fi, spaceships), and finally game features (PVE, PVP, etc.).

I really doubt that a significant portion of the playerbase thought "my eyes hurt from this game's dark graphics with bright nebulas and gasses, and small hard-to-see fonts, and I really hate spaceships, I'd rather be an elf, and I hate PVP too, I'd rather be a peaceful elf, but damn!, I have to suffer through all that and join this game because the scamming is just so great, it's like an asshat paradise!"
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#11 - 2016-10-22 12:45:29 UTC
Quote:
or correlation



You tell us: you're the one wearing a baseball cap in a spaceships game, after all. I need these glasses to see out of my ship windows!

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#12 - 2016-10-22 14:36:55 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:

How would Eve develop if CCP bans any form of scamming on 8th November? It’s just that, sometimes I feel a bit sorry for CCP because they have to deal with that increasing kind of self-comitted load on themselves (because Eve is a harsh and cold world), like the recent example of the so-called „I am Olivia“-scam.

Discuss..



What did you buy...or did you trade window?

Scamming is an accepted game mechanic. Among other unliked ones. Scamming is very countable by common sense and actually reading and understanding (before you accept that contract, for contract scams).

Free tip for you: real sellers in hubs drop their stuff off, set up orders, and leave. Longest we stay is to restock up on building materials, items of interest. We buy, load up, and leave.

We will get drowned out by the crap posting in local. And if your deals good enough, they sell themselves. I have dropped off 1 billion in sale items, contracts even, and half sold by the time I went back to my home station several jumps away. I give good deals. I price to sell, but make a modest profit. They sell themselves.


Contracts....read them carefully. My fave scam, charon contract with carbon as the sale item. Read carbon, laugh (seen this one since 2009), and move on.

Trade windows...are bad m'kay. Get the seller into a contract if you can and want the item or move on. I have only used trade window with trusted corpmates. And usually as a quick restock for them for ops...light on ammo, station out here ya go man.

Last tid bit...applies to plex scams in local but others. When old boy/girl is selling in local for less than the best buy order....alarms should be going off. Check the buy order pricing. They need the isk that bad (usually their bit)...its their for the taking already.

Oh, and the I am leaving eve scam. When people leave eve they do 2 things. They move thier crap to a safe station (0.0 types park caps in low sec stations as an example) and we then let sub die and leave. My case I come back eventually. When eve burn out is high we have better things than be in Jita all night saying leaving eve, giving money away.


Or they really leave eve. As in biomass. If lucky they give crap to real friends before they do this. Some cases, they give over the whole damn account and not biomass.

Either way when players leave we aren't in Jita for 2 weeks saying this. We left over a week ago when gear moves done...and playing in new games of interest.
Revis Owen
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#13 - 2016-10-22 16:30:42 UTC
OP, if you don't want to say where the bad man touched you, just point to the area on the ship-doll.

Agent of the New Order http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.

Vulcyn Vareba
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#14 - 2016-10-22 16:32:39 UTC
he just doesn't know how to have fun. P
Sitting Bull Lakota
Poppins and Company
#15 - 2016-10-23 02:35:48 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
Well, I’ve been around a certain time in this universe of Eve. I met a lot of people, who became very good long-year friends, even outside of the game. I am a human being who interacts open-minded and always friendly to everyone new I meet up in game and/or in real-life, due to my education and social environment I assume. If the opposite human being is just rude, has an unhealthy amount of egoism and is not capable to form arguments to a specific topic and tends to initiate some kind of quarrel (without any sense of humour, besides his own), i try to be calm and if I can’t see and end or a solution, I go away and stop to meet or talk to those individals.

I played different MMOs like SWTOR and GW2 for quite long time and the fact, that there is no (allowed) form of scam in those games existant, leads me to the deduction, that the concentration of dubious and shady individals in Eve is significantly higher compared to other MMOs.

[Don’t get me wrong: I love the special kind of sarcasm and trashtalk in eve. The meme-wars and salt-extraction, all positioned in a „healthy“ sandbox without spilling out the sand of it.]

So, one of my question to you is: Being a scammer, using exploits, being rude to other people = ahole = causality or correlation?.
It’s just my personal evaluation of recent and last years scandals in this game, plus certain negative-minded individals that I met though out my entire Eve Career.

Would those assumptions mean, that Eve attracts people who like to be the a-hole in real-life and want to intensify this habit in a virtual world?
The argument „those are children playing just a computer game and want tob e funny“ is weak, because 80% of ppl I came across are in their late 20s or plus 30s and older.

How would Eve develop if CCP bans any form of scamming on 8th November? It’s just that, sometimes I feel a bit sorry for CCP because they have to deal with that increasing kind of self-comitted load on themselves (because Eve is a harsh and cold world), like the recent example of the so-called „I am Olivia“-scam.

Discuss..

I love the notoriety this game has earned for being an absolutely cutthroat, harsh, and cold game.
I wouldn't trade it for anything.
At this point, I see this game as one of the last great bastions of nearly uncensored exchange of ideas. It's my safe space from safe spaces.

If the "I am Olivia" story, Imperium article, and fallout are all just a misunderstanding and the selfless compassion of the playerbase was well received, then that's just another in a long history of our players proving that the great capacity we have for being heartless is equally matched by our capacity for compassion.

If Imperium was right and it was all a scam, well... welcome to EvE.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2016-10-23 03:28:11 UTC
Honestly I doubt that EvE has any more or less scammers, aholes or anything like that than anyone else.

It has the usual type of people who believe themselves superior because they have accomplished something in a fictional realm, even though they have accomplished very little in reality. Those who have spent so much time online that they could have gone from uneducated to doctorate in the same period and probably with less effort.

You have to wonder about those people who have "retired" and think do you really want nothing more from life than to consume years with a computer game.

You have those on these very forums who believe that they "win" arguments with pathetic word games and distortions rather than actually having a discussion and arguing the points. This is due to the fact that some of them seem unable to have a real discussion due to their inability to understand. Some of the people on here would function very adequately as court jesters but they are absolutely useless at attempting to argue a point, even down to the point I have received the obligatory abusive emails designed to create personal doubt but in reality just made the sender seem even more pathetic.

As to the rudeness that is primarily falling into several main catagories. Those who are meek in real life and can express themselves like that in a game, those who are aholes in real life and are just that way, those who have grown into it due to the nature of EvE and of course those who use it as a defense mechanism because in real life they are actually not very bright.

As to scammers these appear to fall into two main catagories. Those who are brilliant and invent new and creative scams and the sheep who copy them.

But all in all it seems the same kind of mix as any other game.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.

Gealbhan
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2016-10-23 05:58:04 UTC
I like the diversity of the eve player base. Common sense is your guide and caution is your wingman. If it's too good to be true it usually is.
As always fly what you can afford to lose, read that contract very carefully and have fun! Arrow
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#18 - 2016-10-23 10:05:12 UTC
I think all games have their scammers, whether for in game or out of game stuff, in other games, people have pretended to be sick to elicit donations from their guilds.

Games have a cross-section of society playing them, and, much like in society, there are helpful people, and those who take advantage. The majority of people in my experience, fall under the former category, it is just that the latter get all the headlines.
Smack McBacon
Doomheim
#19 - 2016-10-23 11:05:41 UTC
No man is innocent, especially New Eden residents. You're all vile meanies who deserve the worst..ingame ofc.

Also it is said that those who are 'bungholes' ingame usually are very nice and decent people outside of it, they use platforms like these to do all the 'evil' stuff that they are scared to do in the RL ( or 'morale' might be a better and cooler excuse for your ego ).

The nice and friendly are the ones you should be cautious about. The human mind is a dangerous and everlasting changing thing.

Abandon all hope ye who enter here.
Robot Robot
Plate of Beans Incorporated
#20 - 2016-10-23 17:02:16 UTC
I'm a pirate and PVPer. I've done my share of suicide ganking, can theft, loot hijacking, mission invasion etc. I've even tried my hand corp theft, awoxing, and scamming in my day.

This is that kind of game. I do however, try never to be an ******* to another player, only to their characters. I've never understood the trashtalk and such. Some people will argue that it can give you a tactical advantage, but I think that's pretty questionable and also a pretty thin justification. I'm always relentlessly polite to the people I screw over.

But, despite the amount of dickishness you see in EVE, I've seen the same thing in almost every other game I've played. People will call you all kinds of hateful things when you beat them in pretty much any competitive online game, and I don't think it's much worse in EVE. All in all, I wish people wouldn't use Internet anonymity to be hateful towards other people, but that's far from being a uniquely EVE problem.
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