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Market Price History Graphs

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Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#21 - 2016-10-13 20:37:25 UTC
No idea how or who did this new graph, but clearly someone forgot to google TA widgets, and seriously try how these things work in real life... Pretty sure there are a rather huge number of open source projects to reverse engineer a working tool..

What stock exchange is it you guys need negative Y-axis values for?

I was under the impression that CCP Quant had some really nice graphing tools he uses, and have even shared them with the players for better visualizations..

And please on the actual art work, can we get a color selection or way to increase the contrasts of the elements in the graph? It all looks like a bad murky reception screen..

On the thumbs up side, I am elated that something is even worked on in this area of the game, so a HUGE thanks for that.. but please get this right in a bit of a hurry, its worse than the old graph as it stands, even though it LOOKS better!
Maenth
The Thirteen Provinces
#22 - 2016-10-15 09:59:31 UTC
It might just be me but,
The slider area showing the relative price for the past year, the 'fill' effect of that price depiction kinda tricks my mind into thinking it's representing volume traded rather than sale prices. On that note, it might be nice to also see a similar history/summary area representing volumes traded! Preferably seeing them at the same time somehow.

Similar to an earlier comment,
Whether using the new or old market graphs, I have often wished for some manual control of the y-axis scale representing trade volumes and prices; with manual control we could easily ignore anomalous spikes that 'wash out' the more detailed/important information of typical daily trade volumes and prices IF we want to.

Drones. Drones are a means to an end. An end to the ruthless Caldari 'progress' machines. An end to the barbaric 'redemption' proposed by the Amarr. What they see as chaos shall be my perfect order, merely beyond their comprehension.
Elsy Brenalle
Datacore Mining Corp.
#23 - 2016-10-15 14:54:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsy Brenalle
Let's begin:

1. Colorful imterface, that's good for game. Incapability to change the colors or contrast is pretty bad though.

2. Rudiculous 29.94M, 36.09M, 42.23M etc numbers on the left axis. I understand that you wanted to make some algorithm, but it works not very good in way it ls. Round numbers are waaay more understenable than what we have for now.

3. Default drop down horizontal axis timescale. Please get it back!
Black Romero
Aviation Professionals for EVE
#24 - 2016-10-15 15:23:50 UTC
Please, please, PLEASE! For the love of all that is good in this world....

MAKE THE SLIDER DEFAULT an option or set it to a default of 1 year!

1 year makes sense because it give the most information to the user at a quick glance. THEN...if you need to get granular, you zoom in to one month or less.

You took away functionality from the old graphs when you changed the default to 30 days.

I get it will remember (although some posts indicate it doesn't) your settings. But the old graph stayed where you set it and applied it universally. I didn't chose to set it at 30 days. So now I have to go resetting it for the literally thousands of items I buy/sell/look at.

You really killed my trading game with this change and I can't tell you home much it sucks without being "unconstructive."

Please make it a setting or something to set the default time zoom.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#25 - 2016-10-15 16:02:41 UTC
Can this be moved back to SISI where it belongs?

I appreciate that work is being done on the market after all these years, but I would rather it not be developed and tested on the live server.
Domain's Eye
Doomheim
#26 - 2016-10-15 20:31:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Domain's Eye
CCP Antiquarian wrote:
Although this iteration is already out on TQ, I am taking down some of the suggestions here for future iterative work. We are very receptive to any civilly worded criticism that will help improve the game, and I will keep an eye out for ways to improve this feature for everyone.


So how is the civilly worded criticism going on these days ? Do you feel there's some legitimate critics being made somehow ? Keeping "an eye" on how to improve this feature ? You might want to use both eyes and actually put googles, so you can actually understand that the only approprite thing to do right now is to REMOVE this feature back to SiSi.

I deeply apologize for the lack of feedback prior to release, i resubed recently and didn't know this was in preparation, otherwise i can garantee you i would have checked and shared... some feedback.

Allow me to say your answer was quite amazing by the way :

CCP Antiquarian wrote:

The red zero line and potential for negatives on the Y axis are present because we have not yet implemented the ability to click and drag within the graph. Because scrolling can move the graph center up or down dramatically, we found it useful to have a baseline clearly visible.

There are open defects regarding the reset of the Y-axis when selecting or deselecting a setting option in the cogwheel menu and the absence of the current day dot.


So... why did you release it again ? It's half-way done, but no reason to spare the entire player to experience a bit of struggle, right ?
Current day is missing ? Who cares ! "Yeah we know, it's missing. Stay tuned."
Really ? Why don't remove you the entire current week while you're at it ? Right now, to learn what could learn before with a single look, you have to open the table : every, single, time.

CCP Antiquarian wrote:

We used a utility called Color Oracle to help inform our color choices. We will take another look at the transparency, pursuant to the issues reported here (I play with 100% transparency enabled, personally, but testing has been conducted all along the slider).

Yeah i hope you paid it a lot, it's really a great tool. I can barely see the lines, there's no way to change anything, but hey : "animated graphs" (everybody disabled it in a heartbeat).
Keep up the good work with colors, just like that Beta Starmap which has been a huge success, as everybody can concur.


1) Colors must be lighter and more saturated

2) We need the current day dot : now

3) We need the slide to work properly : being able to move it the entire way back without the other moving for no reason

4) we need to be able to set the default range for the slide as we wish

5) Left axis must be fixed


If you can't do that quickly, simple remove this feature until it's done. You didn't improve anything regarding functionalities, and the usability is down the drain.

On top of that, i can't prove it's related, but since this update Jita at peak time is even more unplayable that it used to be. Let us know if you have given up on this game, it will be easier to accept this degree of incompetence.

Best regards.
Elange4
Nomad Technologies
Sublime Machinery Inc.
#27 - 2016-10-15 20:38:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Elange4
Indeed, the formerly mentioned color scheme, volume bar, and especially the default time scheme (30 days for every graph instead of being able to set a default time for every screen we look at)...

These are just a few of the things that need amends.

I also love to look at engaging color schemes - it makes the game more immersive for me, and the current wan grey is just a dud.

THAT said, tho, I love that the market is getting attention, so I must say thank you for your efforts, even if they seem to have missed the boat...

edit: also, IRL I trade a bit too, and candlesticks and MACD are quite useful.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#28 - 2016-10-16 05:22:13 UTC
More feedback to be had in the latest episode of delonewolf's EVE-talk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzB3wEcEI40

For my part, I'm looking towards out-of-game tools for my market graphs now. Previously these were useful because of the limited nature of the in-game tools, but now they are becoming essential because the in-game tools are buggy, inaccurate, difficult to read, cumbersome and lacking in customisation options.

I understand the commercial realities of under-resourced development teams, but I don't think you do yourself any favors by squandering limited resources on degrading the functionality of existing features that were performing at an acceptable level.

This insistence on removing customisation features from the client is also extremely troubling, while it may lower the cost of implementing changes, it's also undermining the merits of the product as a whole. So you may have a cheaper product, but it's also a worse product.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#29 - 2016-10-16 18:23:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
The time frame slider should respect the selected time from the drop down menu in the Table view. And, while it is fancy, I strongly believe that you should reintroduce the drop down menu in the Graph view. While I won't change the duration often from 3 months to anything else, it can be pretty tedious if you do that regularly. A simple way to quickly select the previously available and convenient durations in addition to the possibility to adjust specific custom durations with the slider should be available.

Furthermore, while I was switching around items, I noticed something after a switch from a barely traded item to a regularly traded item. The most current duration starts from the right and goes into the past towards the left. However, if you switch from a normally traded item (eg. EMP L) for which you setup a duration (eg. 30 days) to an item that does not sell at all (eg. Arch Angel EMP L), the duration compresses down to something like 8 or 25 days, because no sales or whatever, and the duration frame starts on the left end of the bar, not the right side where the most current data starts. If you then switch back to the highly traded item, the duration slider sits on the very left end of the duration bar, ie. displays data from a year ago, and not on the very right end of the bar. This is mostly a problem with Sisi because no faction items are available.
However, this is also an issue on TQ with newly introduced items. Just check that with Purity skins and any other item. Set the duration on a popular item to 1 year or 6 months, switch to a Purity skin and then back. The duration frame sits on the very left end of the bar.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2016-10-17 00:34:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Soltys
Ok, after trying to use it a bit a short list of issues:


  1. left side - please normal multiply of 10 values, and using proper units. 0.23B doesn't cut in, neither does 12.53M; analogous remark towards values used for volume (let them be 10 based)
  2. moving vertically - just allow us to LMB click on the graph and move it up / down - currently the only way to workaround it is to mwheel it while keping mouse pointer above it (to move it down) or below it (to move it up)
  3. scaling vertically - far too slow; also think about using ctrl (and maybe alt) modifiers to speed it up (analogously to how we can isk up/down by 0.1 with ctrl)
  4. scaling vertically - once you do (2), keep graph in place regardless of where mouse pointer is
  5. negative prices on the Y axis can (should) be removed =)
  6. make more obvious that you can select period's length through dragging borders of sliding window
  7. setup initial scaling based on current selected period only
  8. swapping to table and back to graph resets graph - it should remember current scaling / position
  9. colors - uncustomizable and not exactly well chosen (too little contrast between those used for once)
  10. it would be nice if we could customize the graph (e.g. lines' thicknes/style/color, dots' size/color, etc.); dunno how much this new code allows - but that would be a nice feature
  11. transparency as mentioned earlier can be quite crippling - let us control or disable transparency for graph area
  12. animations - personally idc as long as we can turn it off (so don't remove that option)

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl
virm pasuul
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2016-10-17 15:42:30 UTC
Was there are "What would you like from a new market tool?" post before doing all this?

If you ask us we will tell you what we like and don't like, and what we would like. Save us all a lot of time, effort, and tears.
K Raz
Crysonian
#32 - 2016-10-19 09:51:04 UTC
Currently kicking myself for not having checked this out on sisi before it went live.

As of now, I can't use the market graph for 75% of the stuff i do, so the table is what i have to deal with.

- Negative values - Wat? I understand the baseline idea, but i want to visibly see where 0 is, the the negative values are just, well, silly.

- Slider lacks some key functionality. Default is 30 days, but the graph is still influenced by pricespikes 340 days ago making it flat with no functionality. Only the data within the slider should influence the visible graph scaling.

- Arbitrary left side number. I can deal with those, but i can't deal with them when i do a mouse hover. knowing that an item is at 0.19 billion isn't enough, granularity is needed. otherwise it's useless.

- Slider resets, it needs to remember what timescale i had selected when selecting a new item.

- Colours, it's a subjective thing, i don't mind them, but judging from other replies some costumization would be great.


It looks great, but it's totally useless.

To some of the other capsuleers in this thread, remember to get on testserver and give feedback, it's easier than ever, and the devs are very open to feedback before it goes live.
CCP Antiquarian
C C P
C C P Alliance
#33 - 2016-10-19 13:10:53 UTC
Update:

The slider now adjusts for all items. The default start range is still the last 30 days, but once you extend/reposition it, the graphs for all items will reflect that selection.

The current day is displayed on the graph.

"Singularity pilots are helpful pilots."

@CCP_Antiquarian - for immediate fulfillment of your archaic social media needs.
The Economist
Logically Consistent
#34 - 2016-10-19 14:41:19 UTC  |  Edited by: The Economist
A lot of issues already detailed here.

The two things driving me nuts the most about it:

1. Scrolling/re-centering both being done by the mouse-wheel. It's just plain bad. Centering the info should be a click and drag affair, zooming alone with the mouse wheel would be ok...a shift-click and drag option could also be nice......or just a nice slider.

2. Y axis scale.

It's horrible and in a lot of cases utterly uninformative. For example: I search for an item that commonly sells for between 120 and 140mil. The y axis says 0.12, 0.13 and 0.14b....not a wonderful start but ok. I zoom in to get more specific pricing information thinking the y axis values would get more specific. After picking a spot and zooming in to the point that all graph points are so spread out that nothing actually shows on my screen at all aside from a cyan field and some vertical lines.....and the y axis is just one long list of '0.12b'. Pretty useless but could still be salvageable I think.....then find that mousing-over the values displayed on the y-axis or the graph points themselves, does nothing in the first case and in the second only displays the same useless and abbreviated price value as the y-axis.

Am I being an idiot and missing something obvious or is this design idiotic? I can't work it out.
Elange4
Nomad Technologies
Sublime Machinery Inc.
#35 - 2016-10-20 03:07:15 UTC
Thanks for the default time effort CCP Antiquarian and team...

I'd like to point out tho, a bug. If you visit an item that is new to the game, Like Blood Raider Accelerators, after you have set your default graph, it goes to the few days that has been listed, and defaults to it every time in every search afterwards.

In this case for Instance, I went to Improved Blue Pill and it only shows two days from about a year ago, without having to reset the graph all over again, and set it back to the recent period too, not only my pre-Blood Raider search parameters of 100 days.
Fanfin Malukker
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2016-10-20 18:56:22 UTC
Elange4 wrote:
Thanks for the default time effort CCP Antiquarian and team...

I'd like to point out tho, a bug. If you visit an item that is new to the game, Like Blood Raider Accelerators, after you have set your default graph, it goes to the few days that has been listed, and defaults to it every time in every search afterwards.

In this case for Instance, I went to Improved Blue Pill and it only shows two days from about a year ago, without having to reset the graph all over again, and set it back to the recent period too, not only my pre-Blood Raider search parameters of 100 days.


I was just about to report exactly the same thing!
(And it was even worse a day or so ago, when there was zero history for some of those items!)

Fanfin.
CCP Antiquarian
C C P
C C P Alliance
#37 - 2016-10-21 13:02:04 UTC
Elange/Fanfin,

Would one of you F12 and bug report that issue with screen grabs of the graph and the region you are in? (logs will also automatically attach, which is beneficial).

I've got a graphic programmer working on the more egregious issues and optimizing graph performance overall and it helps to provide very specific information to get a fix.

"Singularity pilots are helpful pilots."

@CCP_Antiquarian - for immediate fulfillment of your archaic social media needs.
Uther Moldune
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#38 - 2016-10-21 13:12:10 UTC
Could we please have a way to set the Y-Axis upper and lower bounds? There are some cases where some Yahoo bought an item for WAY more than it is ever worth and this throws off the entire graph. If an item sells between 18m and 30mil I don't seem to have a way to set that as my upper and lower bounds because the outlier has thrown off the scale and the graph is flat and unreadable no matter how much scrolling I do with the mouse wheel.
Black Romero
Aviation Professionals for EVE
#39 - 2016-10-23 04:09:49 UTC
CCP Antiquarian wrote:
Update:

The slider now adjusts for all items. The default start range is still the last 30 days, but once you extend/reposition it, the graphs for all items will reflect that selection.

The current day is displayed on the graph.


THANK YOU
Elange4
Nomad Technologies
Sublime Machinery Inc.
#40 - 2016-10-25 08:55:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Elange4
Antiquarian, so you still need a screenshot? I must admit I just logged on now for the first time in three days - Civilization VI has taken ALL of my attention, but I just finished my first game :)

I'll try and replicate it in any case now and see if I can send a bug report if I can...

-- Elange

Update: it still functioned as reported in my previous thread, so I F12'd and screenshotted a bug report for you Antiquarian, with your name in the Title...