These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Missions & Complexes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Closing incursions by killing the Mothership

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Dzajic
#141 - 2012-01-18 09:37:31 UTC
Ok mr Darius? So what do you have to say about CSM and CCP agreeing on Incursions mostly being fine, good for the game, and being kept more or less the same with minor tweaks?
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#142 - 2012-01-18 09:37:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammzi
Clementina wrote:
I read the CSM notes with respect to Incursion sites.

The first thing that is interesting is that the notes are not complete spinless nerf-herding. I'll comment a little.

In the first paragraph, Vanguard sites are accused of being to easy. There is a lot to be said about Vanguard sites and their difficulty. However, it would be difficult to make them harder because lots of the toughness is in getting the 10 people together to do them. If it was as easy to find and lead 20 random people as it is to find and lead 10, the preference would be for Assaults.

The Second and Third paragraphs are about making sites vary more in order to make them more unpredictable and thus more risky. The CSM actually didn't want too much changes to alpha in sites, noting that bombers in Mothership sites can one-shot a logistics ship now.

The Forth paragraph is about the Nation's Consolidation Network which has a cruiser's gate and a battleship's gate. The CSM has told CCP that this is very unpopular because to do it some people have to reship into cruisers.

The Fifth paragraph is about bugs and exploits. I have not personally seen any bugs in my scant incursions running time, but there are a few things that might not be working as intended. Interestingly enough it's two out of three Vanguards.
In the Nation's Mining Colony, it is intended for the players to mine the ore and then use it to destroy the refinery. However what has been happening is that there is extra ore and some people have been saving it (Particularly people who run in the 'shiny fleets') So they finish the Sansha fleet, then use their stored ore to actually destroy the facility.
In the Override Transfer Array, it is intended that someone hack the Override Transfer Arrays in order to defeat the Sansha Logistics and thus finish the site. However, what people have been doing is simply shooting the Deltotes, which even with the Transfer Array support are still fragile enough to defeat. Very shiny fleets can shoot DDD, but unshiny fleets have to shoot AAD AAD D or some similar variation.

The Sixth paragraph is about Site Competition and the number of sites. CCP wanted more sites and the CSM did not.

The Seventh paragraph is about timing, the CSM believes that incursions end too soon, specifically the mothership appears to soon in high-sec. I wonder if opinions are still this?

The Eighth paragraph is about why Incursions always seem to happen in Amarrian space. CCP says they happen there because if you pick a high-sec constellation at random, the probability is greatest that it is an Amarrian constellation.

The benefits of Incursions as a social activity was praised in the closing paragraphs. The CSM said that improvements to Eve Voice, Tagging of enemies on the overview, and Fleet Command tools (especially with respect to knowing how many people are in your fleet) Would be Incursion boosts.

If you made it this far. We're probably going to see Incursion sites changed to make the ships within them more probabilistic. Vanguard and also the Nation's Consolidation Network could see significant changes to their mechanics.


No and NO and NO NO NO.
Sorry - being an incursion runner and a very old one I cannot disagree more with you. You have no idea what you are talking about and you probably have no idea how it was in the beginning with incursions.

Let's start from the top and go down - I haven't read the entirety of your post though, but will do as I respond to it.

Arrow 1st - The problem in vanguards vs. assaults is not gathering and leading 20 more people. It is that even with a good assault fleet and FC you will be able to do the sites at a wopping 14 minutes per payout.
THIS is still not good enough to combat the earnings/reward in vanguards. The "toughness" in doing vanguards is for the love of god not forming up for them. If anything that's probably the easiest damn part.

Arrow 2nd - The Override Transfer Array does not "NEED" to be hacked. If you actually took the time to read that pop-up message instead of just closing it, you'd see that it says something in the lines of "The sansha will be using logistical arrays, shutting those down could help/benefit you in the battle."
It's a suggested not a necessary item. High dps fleets don't need to, t1 fleets should do.

Arrow 3rd - The paragraph regarding the incursions end to soon. Of course that is still how the opinions are right now!
The whole reason we have established player agreements for all incursion runners to not kill the mom is the reason they actually last for several days.
Are you even aware of the influence bar? Have you ever seen it go red while you are in the incursion? Have you ever had issues with pumping the bar up like we had in the beginning of incursions? Actually working together with other fleets so we could spawn the mothership and finish the site?
NO of course you haven't.

Right now the incursions would last no more than 6 hours if no one cared about the agreements and the influence bar is just a ridicilous meter that is reset after DT and is red for the first 3-4 hours of an incursion after it spawns.


As a long time incursion runner, representative of BTL pub and FC of numerous incursion live events I can only praise the CSM minutes about incursions to the sky. We gave all our concerns to csm Draco Llasa and he forwarded them to CCP.
These changes are long needed and craved for.
I can only wait with anticipation for this to be implemented.

I am sorry for the tone of this reply. I recognise your efforts of this summary, but your comments are not entirely true.
Endeavour Starfleet
#143 - 2012-01-18 09:54:07 UTC
The ONLY thing that needs changing in vanguards is forcing them to be completed instead of blitzed.

Make them more dangerous = Moar advantage to shiny fleet
Lessen payout = Moar advantage to shiny fleet

It goes on and on. They don't need to be made into the "Yay now my LP is worth moar" advantage to shiny fleets. Just remove the blitz ability so that noshiny fleets have a chance to compete in terms of Isk/hr.
Dzajic
#144 - 2012-01-18 10:08:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dzajic
Ammzi wrote:
A longish post


Sorry mate. CCP and CSM had had these talks over a month ago. CCP and the voice of community (CSM) have agreed on those things and they will be implemented soon(tm)/ Changes according to what is agreed in minutes are likely already under testing. Yes it will be overall nerf to incursions income; especially if they hardcode so that you can't blitz any sites any longer. Though ti would end up being stupidly unbalanced with Legion fleets continuing to blitz NCOs and other 2 taking ages to finish.

Ofc for maximum lulz these changes would affect all kinds of Incurions and not just high-sec so it will murder isk/hr income for everyone doing them, no matter where. Well at least it may bring attention seekers off our backs.
Even if it ends not paying much more money than L4s, even for shiny fleets, it will of course remain 10000x more interesting than doing L4s

Edit. With or without blitzing shiny fleet will do sites faster as they will have more DPS on field and also better tank.
Mikal Morataya
#145 - 2012-01-18 10:16:32 UTC
If it ends up Incursions pay the same as level 4s (which it wont) people would just go back to level 4s. No organisation needed, no contest.
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer
#146 - 2012-01-18 10:19:45 UTC
Yay, one more reason to leave the game.
Endeavour Starfleet
#147 - 2012-01-18 10:21:05 UTC
Dzajic wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
A longish post


Sorry mate. CCP and CSM had had these talks over a month ago. CCP and the voice of community (CSM) have agreed on those things and they will be implemented soon(tm)/ Changes according to what is agreed in minutes are likely already under testing. Yes it will be overall nerf to incursions income; especially if they hardcode so that you can't blitz any sites any longer. Though ti would end up being stupidly unbalanced with Legion fleets continuing to blitz NCOs and other 2 taking ages to finish.

Ofc for maximum lulz these changes would affect all kinds of Incurions and not just high-sec so it will murder isk/hr income for everyone doing them, no matter where. Well at least it may bring attention seekers off our backs.
Even if it ends not paying much more money than L4s, even for shiny fleets, it will of course remain 10000x more interesting than doing L4s

Edit. With or without blitzing shiny fleet will do sites faster as they will have more DPS on field and also better tank.


What evidence do you have of them "testing" this? I heard of nothing on Sisi.
Dzajic
#148 - 2012-01-18 10:23:54 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Dzajic wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
A longish post


Sorry mate. CCP and CSM had had these talks over a month ago. CCP and the voice of community (CSM) have agreed on those things and they will be implemented soon(tm)/ Changes according to what is agreed in minutes are likely already under testing. Yes it will be overall nerf to incursions income; especially if they hardcode so that you can't blitz any sites any longer. Though ti would end up being stupidly unbalanced with Legion fleets continuing to blitz NCOs and other 2 taking ages to finish.

Ofc for maximum lulz these changes would affect all kinds of Incurions and not just high-sec so it will murder isk/hr income for everyone doing them, no matter where. Well at least it may bring attention seekers off our backs.
Even if it ends not paying much more money than L4s, even for shiny fleets, it will of course remain 10000x more interesting than doing L4s

Edit. With or without blitzing shiny fleet will do sites faster as they will have more DPS on field and also better tank.


What evidence do you have of them "testing" this? I heard of nothing on Sisi.


Sorry. Really wasn't my intention to spread rumors. Its just that looking at how long CSM summit was; and that "must destroy incursions" topics have gotten some devposts saying its being looked at and we will get devblog soon(tm), I would expect changed to be on closed test server or close to deployment to it.
Endeavour Starfleet
#149 - 2012-01-18 10:36:20 UTC
Until it gets to Sisi or announced it really isn't meaningful testing.

I want to see what CCP announces. If they limit vanguard nerfing to just forcing them to be completed it would be ok. However it is obvious that folks like darius in my opinon want them nuked from orbit.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#150 - 2012-01-18 10:38:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammzi
Dzajic wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
A longish post


Sorry mate. CCP and CSM had had these talks over a month ago. CCP and the voice of community (CSM) have agreed on those things and they will be implemented soon(tm)/ Changes according to what is agreed in minutes are likely already under testing. .


Lol - seriously mate. What is your point and what are you talking about? And why are you sorry?
I just said I completely agree with the CSM minutes on incursions... I am happy, not mad nor sad. I am excited and glad!

This "over a month ago" of yours doesn't make sense. Note in the minutes that it was stated that keymembers of the incursion communities were pulled in to comment on incursions. This includes the BTL and TDF operators.

I wouldn't expect anything to be at all close to deployment. Christmas, new year and most of all working on 1.1 crucible and the after patching of Crucible 1.0 has most likely left almost no work on incursions. CCP actually stated recently (1 week ago or so) that they have just recently established a work group on incursions.
They have barely begun working on it.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#151 - 2012-01-18 10:44:30 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Until it gets to Sisi or announced it really isn't meaningful testing.

I want to see what CCP announces. If they limit vanguard nerfing to just forcing them to be completed it would be ok. However it is obvious that folks like darius in my opinon want them nuked from orbit.


You ask evidence without providing any about your claims.

That dude so far has created threads and made fleets about killing MOMs.
Of course, while they are at the task, they will also try extracting further opportunity ISK and maybe tears.

Maybe the other guy (I don't recall the name, the one who made to EvE News) is what you talk about.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Dzajic
#152 - 2012-01-18 10:45:04 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Until it gets to Sisi or announced it really isn't meaningful testing.

I want to see what CCP announces. If they limit vanguard nerfing to just forcing them to be completed it would be ok. However it is obvious that folks like darius in my opinon want them nuked from orbit.


Darius maybe. But I think he and Kriss are doing it just mostly for lulz and tears; and don't really care a bit about "isk faucets" and "balance of economy". CCP and CSM agreed that they are mostly fine. Though that "mostly" can be stretched any way you want. Slight nerf to VG payout combineded with making them unblitzable would end up being a major isk/hr nerf.

And you'd need a really major buff to scouts, assaults and HQs to make them worth the time.
Endeavour Starfleet
#153 - 2012-01-18 16:18:24 UTC
It's EndeavoUr btw not Endeavor.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#154 - 2012-01-19 04:05:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Umega wrote:
Perhaps I do underestimate. If they don't like what is happening.. they can, and should.. do something about it ingame.

Like what? Complain? The incursion community is not one commonly populated by large corps and alliances. Most incursion runners do so only part time, anyway. If a big group wants to come and grief them, there's not really much they can do about it.

Quote:
I don't see how I make Isk as being the slighest bit relevent. I don't do Incursions, they are boring. I don't take advantage of ppl that don't deserve it.. which is why I posted in the first place. I have no horse in this race ultimately.. because..

It's quite relevant. Unless you're into market trading or some form of industry, you proably follow some variation on "find rat > shoot rat > loot rat > repeat". How is this so different? I mean sure, you have to sell the loot (or just melt it), and there's that element of getting blown up, but really...nobody apart from wormhole players really has it any harder.

Quote:
I do find this whole thing hilarious. And applaud those involved for making a stand ingame against something they dislike.. altho I think there is more to it than that..

There is, of course. This was primarily about griefing for the sake of griefing, best I can tell. Hell, the initial thread was titled "grief the bears" or something like that, wasn't it? Problem is, for the most part this isn't a large dedicated group of people that run incursions 23/7, like kriss would have you believe. It's a bunch of people that have found a good(if a little op) way to fund other things. Even the toons that DO follow them around are, often enough, alts of people that don't get to highsec very often.

Quote:
It's pretty damn funny at face value. And this is EVE.. do something about it just like they are, ingame. That was and is the whole damn point of my post.. they get it, others don't and sadly never will.

Again, do what, exactly? Incursion players have isk, but they don't have so much that they can drop a capital fleet on some poor drake pilot and not think twice about it. They aren't organized into a single large group. Typically, they're in smaller corporations that at best are capable of a small gang roam. They're the little guy, here.

Quote:
EDIT: PvP players.. PvE players.. it is an excuse. A bullshit excuse. Everyone is an EVE player.. it is that simple. Making it more than that is denying the foundation and core of this Sandbox PvP MMO. All in the same box.. given same tools.

Wait a minute, YOU'RE the one going on about how people in highsec will never "get" the game based on some obnoxious notion that they all must be absolutely terrified of stepping out of highsec or engaging in pvp. You're defining people in highsec as PVE players, and people in low/null as PVP players...completely ignoring the fact that they are often enough the same people.

Defining eve specifically as a "sandbox pvp mmo" is about as narrow minded as it gets. It's not a purely pvp based game. Never has been, never will be. It's a sandbox, plain and simple. I understand the mentality in sov space is to smash as many of the other guy's sandcastles as possible 23/7, but some people just aren't into that, and forcing it on everyone will never be good for the game. Some people just like to build sand castles once in a while, without 30 people coming over to stomp on it every time.

thhief ghabmoef
Palladias
Doomheim
#155 - 2012-01-19 04:08:22 UTC
I'm just mad i keep missing out on the mom fleets. I'd love to join, but my timing is ****. Evil
Umega
Solis Mensa
#156 - 2012-01-19 04:30:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Umega
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Stuff..


I liked the part where you twisted words on a whim in an attempt to justify your position. Kudos.

You, I think need to make up your mind and figure out some key aspects before you draw any personal conclusions.

Are pvp pilots using alts to farm Incursions? Are they or are they not doing so with friends? Does it not take organizing to successfully handle Incursions on a repeated basis?

Sure.. I guess it is cool to flipflop your opinion on these questions, as long as in doing so it fits your arguement. What's your arguement again? I'm not sure you even know.

I didn't say highsec mains had to step outside of highsec, or be terrified. Quite the opposite. They can get off their ass and defend what they believe is theirs tho. Believing they shouldn't have to.. cause this is a sandbox like you seem to agree.. is bullshit. They should not be cuddled with extra affection.. at all. Even though they are to an extent. And because of that.. why should they be entitled to more than those that don't have the same level of 'protection' surrounding them?

This is player on player interaction. No matter how you want to slice it. People will pve.. and aquire items that are used for pvp, whether they use the items or sell them(battling to get theirs sold against other players).. is player on player interaction, pvp.

And stop being fail in simple words. I stated, repeatedly.. there is no pve, there is no pvp.. there is ONLY EVE players. Plain and simple. Why you are attempting to twist what I say and lump it up is obvious.. so knock it off. Makes you look like an idiot, quite honestly. And I don't think you are, a bit confused me thinks tho.

You.. too narrowly defined the word 'sand castle'. I take the word and broaden it.. a person's 'sand castle' in EVE to me can be their ideals, their land, their ships, to philosphy, basicly..

What They Make Of EVE For Themself.

IMO.. go for It.. defend It.. or be a lil *****. Doesn't matter who or where you are in the Game, nor what you do. Choice is yours. Choice is mine. Get it yet?

 Ume-Pro Studios
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#157 - 2012-01-19 07:12:10 UTC
Umega wrote:
Are pvp pilots using alts to farm Incursions? Are they or are they not doing so with friends? Does it not take organizing to successfully handle Incursions on a repeated basis?

Yes, often, and yes. Small scale organization, not anywhere close the the scale of a nullsec alliance.

Quote:
Believing they shouldn't have to.. cause this is a sandbox like you seem to agree.. is bullshit. They should not be cuddled with extra affection.. at all. Even though they are to an extent. And because of that.. why should they be entitled to more than those that don't have the same level of 'protection' surrounding them?
They aren't. In highsec, you have no moon mining, no sov (or sov upgrades), no cap ships, fail rewards from industrial professions, nearly inconsequential rewards from exploration(usually), and the need to keep your sec status and standings high enough that you don't get mobbed by npc's every time you enter, among other restrictions.

Quote:
And stop being fail in simple words. I stated, repeatedly.. there is no pve, there is no pvp.. there is ONLY EVE players. Plain and simple. Why you are attempting to twist what I say and lump it up is obvious.. so knock it off. Makes you look like an idiot, quite honestly. And I don't think you are, a bit confused me thinks tho.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying when you say there is no pvp or pve..? PVE is shooting npc's and mining and whatnot, pvp is shooting people, and the occasional market war or contest over some sort of plex...simple as. Some players focus on the former, some on the latter...ergo, pvp oriented players, and pve oriented players. The interesting bit is sov players' tendency to associate highsec players with the latter type, and themselves with the former....which makes sense, I guess, but it isn't as black and white as people like kriss would have you believe.

Quote:
You.. too narrowly defined the word 'sand castle'. I take the word and broaden it.. a person's 'sand castle' in EVE to me can be their ideals, their land, their ships, to philosphy, basicly..

What They Make Of EVE For Themself.
Sure. But they can't do it without living in nullsec, apparently?

Quote:
I didn't say highsec mains had to step outside of highsec, or be terrified. Quite the opposite. They can get off their ass and defend what they believe is theirs tho.

*merged comments*

IMO.. go for It.. defend It.. or be a lil *****. Doesn't matter who or where you are in the Game, nor what you do. Choice is yours. Choice is mine. Get it yet?

Go for what? Defend what? There's no defending to be done in this case, short of a mass suicide gank against every fleet that tries to pop the mom early...which really isn't feasible with the amount of logistics on grid, not to mention the timing and level of organization that would be required, and the sheer cost of sustaining such an operation.

thhief ghabmoef
Mila Rasnik
Magnum Research
#158 - 2012-01-19 07:32:31 UTC
Mixed opinions on the whole matter. I run Incursions for a few hours once every couple of weeks so it only really affects me to a small degree.

That said:

I would like to join a fleet without worrying whether the logis are you lot planning on having us all die.

People say we should be allowed to play the way we want to play. That goes both ways. You want to kill the MOM so we can't farm? That's fine, its your choice to do that. The problem lies with your original intentions. To Grief. Your own words. Make a stand for what you believe in, but "intentional griefing" should not be allowed. Is it akin to warp scrambling someone in space and going out to the shopping?

Let us run the incursions, then pop the MOM when it shows up. I have no problem with that. Just LET US run the Incursions. Expanding your operation to hurt those flying them is out of order in my opinion, as it hurts those who don't farm them 23/7 too. Those that don't have access to a list of blacklisted pilots.

Do your thing, let us do ours.
Darius III
Interstellar eXodus
The Initiative.
#159 - 2012-01-19 08:03:28 UTC

Brick is a minor player in these incursion interdictions. The real hereos are Skunkworks and Kill it with fire, and of course Krissada. Special thanks to the people of Crime and Punishment who showed up in 1's and 2's. I just posted here to start a decent discussion with less trolling than you usually see in C&P. If not for LFarm and Skunkworks and the organization of Krissada none of this would be happening, this is actually set up by HISEC people.

There are so many misconceptions in this thread I am not going to bother here much. I am very amused by some of them though. As far as who is the dumbest/worst informed as to whats really going on with this thread it is hands down Endevor, by a wide margin. I have done very little trolling in this thread out of respect for the Mission and complex people who are pretty much seriusbiznuss but the temptation to troll some of these morons is strong.

XXSketchxx wrote:


If anyone thinks Darius is doing this to get member back in fleet, they are literally dumb as hell.


At least someone knows whats up. +1 Sketch

I am most definitely not the leader of Brick. I am just one of our diplomats. A job I have been pretty bad at. Trolling GSF and Test was poor judgement as was declining the 10 BN Isk contract from White Noise. Please don't take my actions as actions from Brick Squad. The fact that I have a loud voice, **** post, and drop the most SBU's, as well as being a huge attention whore just make people falsely associate my actions with all of Brick. The cool thing about being a Brick is that you can do whatever you want where you want and whenever you want to do it. That,and we encourage trolling and losing ships:two things I am really good at.


Brick Squad has lost members and that has 0% to do with my / Bricks participation. Anyone still spinning the 0.0 Alliance power is so far off the truth as to make it not even worth arguing with them.The VAST majority of the people who came were HISEC DWELLERS.

Now can we move back to discussing the issue at hand? Is it wrong to take action against that what you find unfair in eve? If we were"out to destroy the incursion community" I 100% guarantee we wouldnt leave any of them up. As stated we left one of the incursions up on Saturday to prove to the incursion community that we are not unreasonable and negotiated in good faith.



Hmmm
Darius III
Interstellar eXodus
The Initiative.
#160 - 2012-01-19 08:26:18 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:

The Mittani abused his postion as a CSM to initiate a war vs all mining barges in high sec.
Now Darius is also abusing his position to do this.
As a CSM you should not be forcing your type of gaming into the rest of eve nor should you be using your position to carry out your private vandettas OR you will fail as CSM.


My position as CSM has absolutely no bearing (no pun intended on 'bearing') on this action. Me being CSM didn't bring extra people. Anyway I stole the election by cheating so why should I care? I don't have an answer as to why I should care, but I do. The whole reason I started running incursions was to get a feel for how they worked, what they paid etc. I did this so I could make informed decisions as CSM if/when it ever came up.

Please don't compare me to Mittani it makes him look bad.

Hmmm