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PI tier products able to be made in a POS or the new industrial comple

Author
Piugattuk
Lone Star Warriors
Evictus.
#1 - 2016-10-14 14:23:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
The ability to produce the higher PI tier products from the raw materials in a POS array or at an industrial complex at the Citadels making the process of creating these products more straight forward process and more streamlined.

As it stands now we have to assemble recipes from different planets this is a job in itself to go around picking stuff up from launches and exporting, then import the products, then launch or export again, the process of PI is very cumbersome system.

So before we get an uproar of negs (negatives), of why not I will present some of the why not's that I already considered myself and the reasons it didn't change anything.

1. The export taxes will go down...
-Fear not, your fear is unfounded as people will use the export feature rather then the 500 m3 launch option to get products into production quicker.

2. Prices will fall for tier products.
-probably, but it will also increase the value of base products offsetting much loss as base products Prices will be set by their value in T-2 production and fuel block production much as moon products are now priced based on their end products.

3. keep products creation timers the same so the market won't just flood.
-keeps prices more stable.

These are the 3 main things I've considered as far as any negs, maybe you can provide more reasons why not besides a simple no that doesn't explain why, I believe I have considered the top reasons why not and rejected them, I buy lots of base products so in fact this would cost me more ISK to buy the base products if this were implemented but it would also greatly help me to get the end products I seek.

I'm not worried about fuel block prices dropping a bit due to PI products being streamlined in fact this helps the POS owners offset some of the cost involving running a POS, while at the same time folks who run Citadels could benefit from increased tax revenues by people using their industrial complex to create the tier products.

Give these new industrial complex's a true reason to be called that, a place of activities for other industrialists and buyers who if the Citadel owner has set up a market people can buy these products also generating income for the Citadel owner in the form of tax income.
Amarisen Gream
Pleasant Peninsula Productions
Order of Allied Knights
#2 - 2016-10-14 14:40:09 UTC
Okay - lets do this first.

Remove the POS option. POSes are going bye bye. (then the rest of this is sort of my short version of yours)

But putting the option into the manufacturing units would be nice, we would just have to add BPOs to process from. This means every planet would be 100% extraction. The same thing could be done to moon goo.

This means more player control and that industrialist would have to decide to use production slots to make PI goods vs ships/modules.

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Piugattuk
Lone Star Warriors
Evictus.
#3 - 2016-10-14 14:45:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
Amarisen Gream wrote:
Okay - lets do this first.

Remove the POS option. POSes are going bye bye. (then the rest of this is sort of my short version of yours)

But putting the option into the manufacturing units would be nice, we would just have to add BPOs to process from. This means every planet would be 100% extraction. The same thing could be done to moon goo.

This means more player control and that industrialist would have to decide to use production slots to make PI goods vs ships/modules.



Love it, except for moon goo thingy, I'm not gonna get into nulls pockets, that's a sure way for them to become crazed as they will fear loss of control over moon products and in my opinion rightfully so.
Christopher Mabata
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2016-10-14 18:18:11 UTC
I'm not against the idea however i see one major drawback you didnt list ( or i somehow missed )

The second you add these BPO's nobody will use processors (Factories) anymore, all you have to do is maximize harvesting and then ship it to station/complex and as a result your ISK/Hour Skyrockets.

Ex:
On a planet producing rocket fuel as we speak i'm harvesting 12,000 units (rounded down) per hour of both ingredients required to produce it, if i destroyed my factories and moved to an extract - store - launch system i could easily fit another set of extractors and effectively double my total amount harvested and with it the amount of rocket fuel that i can produce per day. Therefore much more ISK that way and no reason to do it the other way.

Only ways i see this being balanced are if:
A) PI is overhauled to be full extraction based and these become the only way to create advanced materials

Or

B) The BPO"s produced in complexes or stations are far less efficient than specialized ground processors which means while it may be more convenient and centralized to use these BPO's in the long run it will also be less profitable. So right now it takes 3,000 units of ionic solutions to make electrolytes on the surface of the planet, so perhaps in space it should take 6,000-9,000 to produce the same amount of electrolytes making it more efficient to do it on the planet, same goes for all other resources moving both horizontally and vertically across the spectrum.

This gives a clear incentive to use planets for optimal ISK/hour for the people willing to do all of the hauling and logistics of PI in its current state. But for those who don't want to do this can still setup for extraction, export the goods, and supplement with products purchased off the market to optimize their ISK/hour that way.

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Piugattuk
Lone Star Warriors
Evictus.
#5 - 2016-10-14 19:22:54 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:
I'm not against the idea however i see one major drawback you didnt list ( or i somehow missed )

The second you add these BPO's nobody will use processors (Factories) anymore, all you have to do is maximize harvesting and then ship it to station/complex and as a result your ISK/Hour Skyrockets.

Ex:
On a planet producing rocket fuel as we speak i'm harvesting 12,000 units (rounded down) per hour of both ingredients required to produce it, if i destroyed my factories and moved to an extract - store - launch system i could easily fit another set of extractors and effectively double my total amount harvested and with it the amount of rocket fuel that i can produce per day. Therefore much more ISK that way and no reason to do it the other way.

Only ways i see this being balanced are if:
A) PI is overhauled to be full extraction based and these become the only way to create advanced materials

Or

B) The BPO"s produced in complexes or stations are far less efficient than specialized ground processors which means while it may be more convenient and centralized to use these BPO's in the long run it will also be less profitable. So right now it takes 3,000 units of ionic solutions to make electrolytes on the surface of the planet, so perhaps in space it should take 6,000-9,000 to produce the same amount of electrolytes making it more efficient to do it on the planet, same goes for all other resources moving both horizontally and vertically across the spectrum.

This gives a clear incentive to use planets for optimal ISK/hour for the people willing to do all of the hauling and logistics of PI in its current state. But for those who don't want to do this can still setup for extraction, export the goods, and supplement with products purchased off the market to optimize their ISK/hour that way.


Yeah, missed that in her post read it didn't think anything), but yeah, bpo would probably just be an extra step we could skip.
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#6 - 2016-10-15 01:46:22 UTC
I dunno man.

Part of the opportunity cost of PI is the strict limit on number of planets per character, a limitation that doesn't really exist for structures.

I don't think allowing people to move production infrastructure off planet sounds like a great idea. Rather, I think being able to link the output to a nearby structure to cut down on logstics and increase security seems like a more appropriate and balanced approach.

So, in stead of having to constantly interact with PI farms, pick up shipments in ships, pay taxes, perhaps allow people to wire output of a launchpad to a nearby anchored structure directly so it scoops up the output. The structure's fuel cost would serve as the econ sink, and you could directly aggregate the results of multiple character's worth of PI material to a single structure.

This wouldn't fundamentally change the nature or economic balance of PI, but it would simplify the logistics.
Piugattuk
Lone Star Warriors
Evictus.
#7 - 2016-10-15 02:03:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
PopeUrban wrote:
I dunno man.

Part of the opportunity cost of PI is the strict limit on number of planets per character, a limitation that doesn't really exist for structures.

I don't think allowing people to move production infrastructure off planet sounds like a great idea. Rather, I think being able to link the output to a nearby structure to cut down on logstics and increase security seems like a more appropriate and balanced approach.

So, in stead of having to constantly interact with PI farms, pick up shipments in ships, pay taxes, perhaps allow people to wire output of a launchpad to a nearby anchored structure directly so it scoops up the output. The structure's fuel cost would serve as the econ sink, and you could directly aggregate the results of multiple character's worth of PI material to a single structure.

This wouldn't fundamentally change the nature or economic balance of PI, but it would simplify the logistics.


There are many ways to accomplish this, this is another ideal Smile as you say balance is definitely on my mind which is why I want to keep manufacturing of tier products consistent with current time lines as they are, this should mitigate any issues with flooding too quickly the market as products continue to be made with tier products.

Setting it up this way keeps tax revenues for the POCO owners and Citadels also get in on the manufacturing tax/charge, this spreads the money out and still keeps it the same as you can choose to launch your base products (cheaper option), or take a hit and send them up via POCO's but obviously the export tax is higher (but if you the player lose profit), by sending it up in that manner, it still maintains what is existing now, while still being able to manufacture products on planet side if you wish to do so.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#8 - 2016-10-15 23:52:02 UTC
No thanks. Doubling the amount of PI extracted will half the value. On top of that this would cut the number of trips required for production of P4's to simply gathering extracted P1's. All other refinement would be in a nice safe station. Less pilots in space means less chance of ambush. And this is from one of those at risk of being ambushed.

Perhaps drilling rigs may be an option for PI as this would place the risk of being in space on to the structure but we need to see how the EC's pan out first.
Piugattuk
Lone Star Warriors
Evictus.
#9 - 2016-10-16 00:03:09 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
No thanks. Doubling the amount of PI extracted will half the value. On top of that this would cut the number of trips required for production of P4's to simply gathering extracted P1's. All other refinement would be in a nice safe station. Less pilots in space means less chance of ambush. And this is from one of those at risk of being ambushed.

Perhaps drilling rigs may be an option for PI as this would place the risk of being in space on to the structure but we need to see how the EC's pan out first.

Ugh...don't get it.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#10 - 2016-10-16 00:21:47 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
No thanks. Doubling the amount of PI extracted will half the value. On top of that this would cut the number of trips required for production of P4's to simply gathering extracted P1's. All other refinement would be in a nice safe station. Less pilots in space means less chance of ambush. And this is from one of those at risk of being ambushed.

Perhaps drilling rigs may be an option for PI as this would place the risk of being in space on to the structure but we need to see how the EC's pan out first.

Ugh...don't get it.


If you remove the need for advanced and high tech factories on planet the every player will simply install extractors and basics, pretty much doubling P1 output. It would take 1 trip per planet per every couple of days to gather it all in to a nice safe station and refine all the way up to P4's. No planetary planning required, much less time (therefore risk) in space hauling P2's 3's and 4's. Hell I could even just use that station to build the end products that use the P4's potentially.

This idea cuts the value of the PI produced by increaing supply by up to 100% extra. It cuts risk by drastically reducing time in space. It cuts the prices of any item that uses PI in production which impacts profits.

It would need an entire overhaul of the PI system to use a PI structure (basically a planetside citadel in game terms), or use drilling platforms and make extractors, factories etc the services provided. This would be a huge job to balance out extraction levels against not disrupting the market too much (and structure fuel costs).
Piugattuk
Lone Star Warriors
Evictus.
#11 - 2016-10-16 07:53:54 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
No thanks. Doubling the amount of PI extracted will half the value. On top of that this would cut the number of trips required for production of P4's to simply gathering extracted P1's. All other refinement would be in a nice safe station. Less pilots in space means less chance of ambush. And this is from one of those at risk of being ambushed.

Perhaps drilling rigs may be an option for PI as this would place the risk of being in space on to the structure but we need to see how the EC's pan out first.

Ugh...don't get it.


If you remove the need for advanced and high tech factories on planet the every player will simply install extractors and basics, pretty much doubling P1 output. It would take 1 trip per planet per every couple of days to gather it all in to a nice safe station and refine all the way up to P4's. No planetary planning required, much less time (therefore risk) in space hauling P2's 3's and 4's. Hell I could even just use that station to build the end products that use the P4's potentially.

This idea cuts the value of the PI produced by increaing supply by up to 100% extra. It cuts risk by drastically reducing time in space. It cuts the prices of any item that uses PI in production which impacts profits.

It would need an entire overhaul of the PI system to use a PI structure (basically a planetside citadel in game terms), or use drilling platforms and make extractors, factories etc the services provided. This would be a huge job to balance out extraction levels against not disrupting the market too much (and structure fuel costs).


As far as what you think will happen is probably more for low sec, any place else wouldn't change as far as risk is concerned, in high it is very unlikely to have people going after people going to pick up PI As due to the value is not great.

For WH/Null it changes nothing, people will still go picking up items as usual and in those parts nothing stops us now as we can make any changes to import/export, or anything else from the comfort of the stations, nobody (or nobody should), hangs out in space making changes to PI.

Picking up in low has alway had the same risks, nothing has changed there.

Currently absolutely nothing stops people now from exporting (NULL/WH), from sending up as much as they please as their Corp most likely owns the POCO and it is probably free or very low cost, the fact that they can do it from a Citadel (never said NPC stations), will not change anything because regardless this is why I also posted that time to make products should stay as is.

Understand, people now have the same restrictions on how much stuff they can bring up because the mechanics stay the same, nothing changes as far as time to produce the products, it is super duper easy to make as much as you want now from NULL/WH, the amounts are crazy high so keeping the factories humming is not an issue at all, high sec can't compare to what you can get from the lower realms, adding the ability to produce them in a Citadel doesn't change amounts and doesn't make it any safer when its time to transport them to...?

I never said to get rid of the ability to make them planet side, if people prefer this then they can continue on mission, if you export base material in bulk (through customs), the taxes will eat your profit margin for high sec, doesn't change anything for the lower realms.

PI is an activity not everybody will do especially in high sec because the amounts are ho humm, I do it for T-2 builds, for outright profit, no, I make more mining in an hour then anything I can get out of PI for profit in a week (high sec).