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Social regression in New Eden.

First post
Author
Memphis Baas
#61 - 2016-10-14 13:18:55 UTC
Stupid or not, you asked for clues why, and I pointed some out. CCP doesn't guarantee any sort of quality in the discussions on these forums, nor do they restrict forum use to only "quality" posters. We discount people's opinions all the time here.

And everybody spins, all the time.

And finally, your previous posts were whines about CCP's policies and bans. People took you up on the trolling and replied. Now you've posted some stuff about post-modernism and regression, and you've drawn parallels to CCP's policies and bans, so I have two options:

1. Spend several hours reading up and educating myself on topics that I don't know much about, to see the finer points and parallels that you're trying to make, and to be able to decide whether you're bullshitting or not, or,

2. Dismiss your viewpoint as just another POINTLESS whine that won't accomplish anything, and remain blissfully ignorant.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#62 - 2016-10-14 13:36:43 UTC
Allowing people to accumulate gigantic festering mountains of ISK in a manner that cannot be interdicted within the game is an absolute anathema to the very concept of EVE as a sandbox.

Casinos, both the virtual and bricks & mortar, always have the odds stacked in their own favour. Fair enough, they're a business not a charity. The same is generally not true of bookmakers taking bets on sports events. It's quite possible for a bookie to go broke either by putting up insane odds or by simply not paying attention and taking more bets than they can pay out. I have some friends who are IRL bookies. Some race meets they're ahead. Some they're out of pocket. They are taking real risks with their own cash.

The only way to interrupt said rivers of third party casino ISK would be to commit actual real world computer crimes against these sites. Be it by extended DDoS attacks &/or a direct hack into the site, it requires the use of a lot of tools and skills that have little or nothing to do with EVE.

Compare that with the many, many in-game methods there are of generating ISK, all of which can be interrupted by other players:

You want to multibox a highsec Ice mining fleet? We can gank that.
You're off AFK ratting in deepest 0.0? We can find you and kill your ship. We have maps that show us what regions are actively being ratted.
You're in a wormhole running sites? All it takes is one person to spot you and they can call in the cavalry and blow up your ships.
You're an industrialist building super-capitals? That SCSAA can be seen on D-Scan and your towers reinforced.
Even station trading can be as ruthless. Market manipulations are not uncommon.

The Mittani makes a very valid point when he said that a game without an age barrier shouldn't be see to condone or facilitate underage gambling. Out here in The Real World, we wouldn't let a 14yo kid loose in a casino.

I'm not surprised that some players with the requisit skills and knowledge built casino sites. It was probably to be expected in a game as long running as EVE. I am a little surprised that CCP took so long to shut them down. Now it's done, huzzah!

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#63 - 2016-10-14 14:29:31 UTC
TL;DR op is mad because iwi was clearly rigged in her favour Big smile

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Galaxy Duck
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
#64 - 2016-10-14 15:21:39 UTC
Nothing of value was lost.
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#65 - 2016-10-14 16:47:58 UTC
Thanks for the comments, especially Memphis and Mephiz.

For Memphis, that thought process you described is completely foreign for me, that people can think and see and react in such ways is quite interesting.

As for Mephiz, I think it's already clear that I disagree with you on casino issue, but I can see your point.

Somewhere along the process I picked up on the catch phrase notion that 'EVE is a life style', but well, it's just a commercial game for consumers after all. I fooled myself to think there was more to it, but I guess it was about the time I accept it as what it is and try not to find any more meaning from it than what CCP defined.

Funnily enough I feel like a little kid who just realised (or always knew but admitted) that the football team he followed with passion is just part of pro-sports industry, and your team heroes are putting on the shirts for wages, and what happens outside of the pitch doesn't mean anything to the game, and what happens on the pitch doesn't mean anything in life.

Oh well.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#66 - 2016-10-14 17:13:47 UTC
The reality, as Memphis Bass put it, is that everyone talks from a bias of the self. Even if they say they are unbiased it isnt actually true. Your own personal experiences and insights shape what you say, when you say it, who you say it to and everything about you. So no you cannot, imo, separate yourself from your past but instead move on beyond it and either using it as a sail or an anchor in the future. But to ask people not to take your own personal details into account when you say or do something is kind of silly and naive imo.

When I referred to your past issues, that was simply more out of genuine hope that you can find peace and healing with it. As any addiction is a bad monster to have on your back.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

Callitari Mundani
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#67 - 2016-10-14 18:18:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Callitari Mundani
"I want ISK" was a plague that needed to be removed ages ago, it's fine to be a banker for your corp/alliance but not a casino manager for the whole EVE - I'm against of any form of gambling whatsoever. Playing "outside" of the game isn't actually playing ... it's just just bitching around. IWI took a step further of being just a gambling site, they started to influence politics in EVE (see WWbee) which caused CCP money (subscription cancellations) due to recent chances in sov mechanics which triggered alot of frustration for the "old school" players.

I believe that EVE will be killed soon by the F2P model coming in november, banning the bankers prior november release was completely unexpected and this happends to remind me why I love this game! Seeing that CCP started to actually do something for the game and not against it makes me reconsider my cancelled subscriptions.

Keep it up CCP!
Ginger Naari
Doomheim
#68 - 2016-10-14 18:29:19 UTC
Toobo wrote:
Thanks for the comments, especially Memphis and Mephiz.

For Memphis, that thought process you described is completely foreign for me, that people can think and see and react in such ways is quite interesting.

As for Mephiz, I think it's already clear that I disagree with you on casino issue, but I can see your point.

Somewhere along the process I picked up on the catch phrase notion that 'EVE is a life style', but well, it's just a commercial game for consumers after all. I fooled myself to think there was more to it, but I guess it was about the time I accept it as what it is and try not to find any more meaning from it than what CCP defined.

Funnily enough I feel like a little kid who just realised (or always knew but admitted) that the football team he followed with passion is just part of pro-sports industry, and your team heroes are putting on the shirts for wages, and what happens outside of the pitch doesn't mean anything to the game, and what happens on the pitch doesn't mean anything in life.

Oh well.



Have you stopped whining now?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#69 - 2016-10-14 21:39:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Toobo wrote:
NOTE: People in the know would know that I've been a huge fan of IWI, so you may read this with prejudice you had against IWI, I can understand that. But I shall put aside my love for IWI and feelings at what was done to it by CCP, and put back on my social theory academic hat back on to write this, which I haven't done for long time since I left academia in last decade.


Might want to just consider that what was done to IWI was because they were engaged in RMT. If they were not engaged in RMT IWI and others would not have been banned. It is pretty simple and straight forward here. We don't need any deep penetrating social theory.

Oh and yeah, no amount of giant walls of text or post-modernist clap trap is going to get IWI unbanned or even bring back online gambling.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2016-10-14 21:49:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Toobo wrote:
What I meant by with player influenced evolution to the post-modern New Eden, was that people have accumulated enough wealth, knowledge, experience, and built meta gaming models and paradigms, where groups of people could make living off ISK alone, and use that ISK to drive the traditional power games of EVE.


No.

The Casino War/WWB, whatever you want to call it needed both ISK and people out there in the belts harvesting asteroids, ice, and running POS set ups, working their PI set ups and what not. Without this "real" activity no amount of ISK will allow one to accomplish what was done in that war.

It is like a computer, without a person there to program and use it, the computer is just a moderately heavy object. It is useless. ISK is also generally useless in and of itself. In fact, the very definition of a fiat currency is something that has no intrinsic value. ISK is only useful in the context of the New Eden economy and the actual items it can purchase.

Edit:

And regarding this:

Quote:
Call it financial engineering, or creative economy, but what happened was that the resources in space became no longer relevant. Not only that, what happened within that space was also irrelevant.


Please explain how you can use ISK to get a VNI?

Yes, I know the obvious answer is buy it. But where did it come from? How did it get on the market to begin with? Answer, somebody had to go out in space and do stuff. ISK alone cannot result in a VNI or any other ship in the game. Somewhere somebody had to be doing something in game...undocked.

You claim of total irrelevancy of resources in space, etc. is quite simply not true at all. You have a fatal and obvious flaw in your theory.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#71 - 2016-10-14 21:55:53 UTC
Thomas Lot wrote:
Toobo wrote:
tl/dr, no more sand box and creative social evolution. Labour and fight in the space like primitive cliche. New Eden was evolving, CCP put a stop to it, they want it to stay stuck in old social model while even RL world has evolved into new mode of social frame.



Ahhh, I understand our differing viewpoints. Your background is in Social Science, and you see the loss of a free creative aspect of gameplay. My viewpoint is from a background of hard science and I see CCP investigating and factual evidence of violations.

Are you of the opinion that CCP could have taken control of the gambling sites, incorporated them into gameplay within the program code and created an ISK sink to counter the faucet of bounties?

Is your opinion now that we will see an increase in currency available ingame because of the loss of the gambling sink?



There is absolutely no problem with creative social evolution in game. None. You just have to do it within the rules as set forth by CCP. IWI did not do that and so they have been ejected from the game.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#72 - 2016-10-14 23:20:22 UTC
Read the OP, but not many of the comments.

The description of EvE in the OP seems to be exactly as it was in 2008 when I started playing. Seems to be the same as it is now. It hasn't changed in the sense that a lot of the game occurs outside Tranquility. Most of it doesn't involve RMT.

The RMT bans were simply the removal of a cancerous growth...a dead-end on the evolutionary tree that was becoming a liability to support. Many other branches flourish. Their removal was not significant in the timeline of EvE. Events like this occur every few months. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth occurs. Things die down and the stories of "what happened that one time" become part of the lore.

This, too shall pass.

But it was just a blip.

KB

Dum Spiro Spero

Gealbhan
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#73 - 2016-10-14 23:20:36 UTC
I gamble what I'm flying everytime I hit Undock, that's enough for me. Arrow
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2016-10-14 23:28:51 UTC
Toobo wrote:
... That's why I did say that I don't like name dropping, as I agree with Budrillard on this.....


This is turbo-trolling beyond all sanity.







Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Toobo
Project Fruit House
#75 - 2016-10-15 02:31:27 UTC
I'm hlad that the discussion is shifting to more about eve and game mechanic rather than on me as a formet IWI player.

Some good points are made that showed some errors in my writing, both in terms of the way I worded them and the thinga that I did not bring into consideration in the OP, so it's all well appreciated.

Especially the point that resource/ISK has to come from somewhere in space, which is totally true and I knew this. But with your feedbacks I realise that my consideration of social paradigm of New Eden was mostly by looking at smaller segment of EVE population for whom space and spaceships has become irrelevant.

This is also true and often cited issue in the post modernity thoughts ITL, that despite what we observe in some societies around the world, significant portion of world population and countries are still operating in the mode of modernity. So such division both IRL and in game could only lead to conflicts and struggle between the two, and this time the masses have won, albeit only through intervention from a force that is outside of any players, CCP.

I'm still sad to see an 'option' such as gambling in the past format is gone forever, and that still is a sad regression for me. But if majority of subbed player base and CCP wants it that way, commercially this is the correct choice for CCP.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

MeiJin
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2016-10-15 02:44:25 UTC
How much ISK did you have confiscated OP?
Memphis Baas
#77 - 2016-10-15 03:00:06 UTC
Toobo wrote:
if majority of subbed player base and CCP wants it that way, commercially this is the correct choice for CCP.


"CCP wants it that way" - I think this can be taken as a fact.

Determining what "the majority of the subbed player base" wants is extremely difficult, given that the forum population (everywhere not just here) is in the range of 1% - 10% of the player base.

And, it will be impossible to separate the effects of this particular change from the overall effects of the upcoming expansion, so CCP will likely be unable to determine whether any "commercial" effect is solely caused by this change only.

So, given all this, they (still) made this change.
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#78 - 2016-10-15 03:46:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Toobo
MeiJin - I'm open about the loss. It was only 120b in total I could not withdraw in time. Normally everytime I reach 100b+ in wallet, I withdraw everything leaving 20~30b to gamble more. So it's not percentage based. I won Rat Race once for 430b, withdrew 440b or so leaving 20b behind. I won it again at recently at 360b, withdrew everything leaving 30b or so. But when I won Fedo double (100b), I withdraw 70b, leaving 30b. I've always done it this way after 100b+ wins, some of the nice memorable wins were Caldari JP 4 times (360b, 130b, 200b or so x 2) and Nothing But Jackpot at 200b+, Wyvern BPO bundle double at 240b, etc.

I also openly said that my heaviest loss was after winning Pirates slots for 240b, which I did not withdraw and blew all on gambling in 48 hours of manic spree lol. It's after that I stuck to the above method to keep the ISK build up and turn them into more secure assets in game after big wins.

So my strategy was never percentage based, I felt that 20~30b was the optimal amount to gamble with and was always good enough buffer to run many many tabs of slots & do odd raffle here and there. Once I have over 40b in the IWI account I tend to spend too much on raffles, which was usually not a good thing.

This 120b in account was an abnormally because I got about 100b from the Infinite Pool after IWI was already banned. If the ban came after I won the pool I would've only lost 20b or so, which is the usual amount I keep in IWI account at all times, but oh well.


This is an example of how I did things, which I posted in another thread last month.

EDIT: If I were to give a RL example, losing IWI option, financially, would be like Apple not succeeding with Apple Watch. It's not nice and a big pity, but Apple will survive and move on. If Apple failed horribly in iPhone like Samsung did with Galaxy Note explosion fiasco, that would have really hurt. My in game operation hasn't been hit at all, so while I did suffer negative consequences, I can survive and move on.


For Memphis, yes, the factors are very complicated now especially with the alpha toons coming in with major industrial structures introductions, and you are correct that forum opinions represent only a tiny fraction of player base.

I hate what CCP has done, this I will not change in my mind, and I have explained plenty why I think CCP made a wrong move so I won't get into that again here. But I am not quitting EVE and I do not want CCP or EVE to 'fail' and die. So I'm in sort of in love & hate relationship with EVE now, whereas before it used to be all love heh.

Let's see how things turn out to be, and I feel sorry for everyone that lost and lost all the love for the game to the extent that they are leaving (or have already left) the game. It was very sickening how negatively CCP has ruined some player experiences, even for those who never broke EULA, and this I shall never forgive (not that it would matter to CCP that this one Toobo holds grudge).

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Big Lynx
#79 - 2016-10-15 05:33:51 UTC
Toobo wrote:
MeiJin - I'm open about the loss. It was only 120b in total I could not withdraw in time. Normally everytime I reach 100b+ in wallet, I withdraw everything leaving 20~30b to gamble more. So it's not percentage based. I won Rat Race once for 430b, withdrew 440b or so leaving 20b behind. I won it again at recently at 360b, withdrew everything leaving 30b or so. But when I won Fedo double (100b), I withdraw 70b, leaving 30b. I've always done it this way after 100b+ wins, some of the nice memorable wins were Caldari JP 4 times (360b, 130b, 200b or so x 2) and Nothing But Jackpot at 200b+, Wyvern BPO bundle double at 240b, etc.

I also openly said that my heaviest loss was after winning Pirates slots for 240b, which I did not withdraw and blew all on gambling in 48 hours of manic spree lol. It's after that I stuck to the above method to keep the ISK build up and turn them into more secure assets in game after big wins.

So my strategy was never percentage based, I felt that 20~30b was the optimal amount to gamble with and was always good enough buffer to run many many tabs of slots & do odd raffle here and there. Once I have over 40b in the IWI account I tend to spend too much on raffles, which was usually not a good thing.

This 120b in account was an abnormally because I got about 100b from the Infinite Pool after IWI was already banned. If the ban came after I won the pool I would've only lost 20b or so, which is the usual amount I keep in IWI out to be, and I feel sorry for everyone that lost and lost all the love ).

Reading this I am more and more shocked how much damage IWI caused to the game itself and the players, by not even playing the game. I have to admit that I am pretty disappointed that CCP observed this for years without any actions. Toobo, consider yourself as cured and play eve online now.
Vincent Pelletier
Pelletier Imports and Exports
#80 - 2016-10-15 05:41:30 UTC
Stop your useless projectile vomit posts/threads. None of them ever added anything of value regardless of the word count.