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Clone States UI Changes

First post
Author
Intigo
New Order Outreach Division
CODE.
#41 - 2016-10-13 09:38:43 UTC
I think your proposed UI changes are absolutely horrendous. You're making the UI considerably worse with these changes and setting back the game as a whole. Please listen to people telling you this.

hydra provail

Turelus
Utassi Security
#42 - 2016-10-13 10:13:10 UTC
I had a quick nose around last night.

As others have said here and on Reddit, the UI is a bit too in your face to upgrade to Omega clones.

I've poked around several MMO's over the years and the ones with F2P access and subs for better access have generally handled it in two ways, the subtle non-intrusive reminder that you can't access something or the bold in your face system.

The in your face system really makes a game feel unfriendly, cash grabby etc.

I'm not really sure how to phrase it better than try to stop posting the Omega Icon everywhere.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security

Nyoris
yagerasekard
#43 - 2016-10-13 12:40:25 UTC
Just because the game becomes F2P doesn't mean it has to look as trashy as one.
Ads are fine, but they're too obnoxious right now.
Like everyone else has said, please tone down on the ingame advertisements on Sisi, or make them invisible for Omega clones.
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2016-10-13 12:50:26 UTC
Turelus wrote:
I had a quick nose around last night.

As others have said here and on Reddit, the UI is a bit too in your face to upgrade to Omega clones.

I've poked around several MMO's over the years and the ones with F2P access and subs for better access have generally handled it in two ways, the subtle non-intrusive reminder that you can't access something or the bold in your face system.

The in your face system really makes a game feel unfriendly, cash grabby etc.

I'm not really sure how to phrase it better than try to stop posting the Omega Icon everywhere.


Just the Omega icon and the yellow border is a fine way to indicate something is limited to Omega if you ask me. There has to be some way for new players to see the difference or it will just be confusing.

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Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#45 - 2016-10-13 13:16:55 UTC
Turelus
Utassi Security
#46 - 2016-10-13 13:18:18 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Turelus wrote:
I had a quick nose around last night.

As others have said here and on Reddit, the UI is a bit too in your face to upgrade to Omega clones.

I've poked around several MMO's over the years and the ones with F2P access and subs for better access have generally handled it in two ways, the subtle non-intrusive reminder that you can't access something or the bold in your face system.

The in your face system really makes a game feel unfriendly, cash grabby etc.

I'm not really sure how to phrase it better than try to stop posting the Omega Icon everywhere.


Just the Omega icon and the yellow border is a fine way to indicate something is limited to Omega if you ask me. There has to be some way for new players to see the difference or it will just be confusing.


I agree. I was just kind of shocked how it was plastered almost everywhere as a "YOU CAN'T USE THIS!!!" I mean I know they need to inform players what they can and can't use but it feels overpowering.

Other little gripes.
I don't like that Omega is listed as having 2x training speed when this speed is the default. It's just a gripe where it makes the game feel like you're getting a bonus for subbing rather than the core game experience and that's where a lot of P2W feeling comes from. CCP should do better to make an example that Alpha is a unlimited trial rather than a F2P mode.

The character sheet looks okay but the feeling of it seems out of touch with most other UI elements. I can't put my finger on exactly what it is though.

Any way I'll try and log in and get some real feedback/screenshots tonight or over the weekend.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security

Lavayar
ANGELGARD.
The Initiative.
#47 - 2016-10-13 13:28:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Lavayar
Stop this "Become Omega" UI madness!
Just because the game becomes f2p doesn't mean it has to look like trash samples of f2p market.
Echo Degnar
Dino Nuggets
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#48 - 2016-10-13 14:15:49 UTC
Dear CCP,

Please stop! Discard all UI changes and start over. Involve a designer. Preferably one with UX experience, but consult at least one designer please.

There is nothing constructive to say about this. You chose form over function and it failed. Just try again.
CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#49 - 2016-10-13 15:05:55 UTC
Duke Garland wrote:
CCP Sharq wrote:
Soleil Fournier wrote:
The vertical text is bad. We have to turn our heads in order to read it. Change it to:

A
r
m
o
r

is a lot easier to read vertically than how you have it now.


We'll look into tweaking the labels on the bars


Or just do it sideways which is (I know I've said it before) far more natural to read and also fits a LOT better with the rest of the UI - here's hoping you don't plan more of that verticalism. While I enjoy that on my spaceships I'm *not* japanese and as such favor reading my UI teXt in a horizontal manner: http://i.imgur.com/PHR46Ux.png

Also what's with that forced Alpha state and no SISI pleXing to upgrade?
On another sidenote, despite my +4 imps showing the omega label they apply their effect just fine - intended?


regards
Duke Garland


Horizontal update incoming, we have it internally, just need to see when we push to sisi.

Forced Alpha is for some testing on the test server, it is only for a couple days, will be resolved EOB Friday.

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#50 - 2016-10-13 15:13:26 UTC
Duke Garland wrote:
In a loot window (or any other inventory window) items that require Omega status aren't generally marked as such until you mouse over them - is this intended?


This is intended and only the case for Alphas, if you are Omega then the icon will not appear, but the gold border will remain.

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

Soleil Fournier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2016-10-13 15:14:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
TigerXtrm wrote:

Just the Omega icon and the yellow border is a fine way to indicate something is limited to Omega if you ask me. There has to be some way for new players to see the difference or it will just be confusing.


Instead of a gold border around omega items, I'd like an omega symbol in the top right hand corner of the item instead - like the T2 / t3 symbol in the top left of tech 2 & 3 items. This would identify Omega items but does it in a more subtle and non-OCD inducing way.
Soleil Fournier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2016-10-13 15:20:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
On my alpha clone on sisi I'm looking at skills and it's difficult to get a good sense of what's going on.

You guys cross off the gold omega skills, which is fine, but I think shading those boxes out as well would help make the alpha clones make a bit more sense.

Edit* While in the alpha clone, I would shade out any skill category labels that don't have alpha skills, and turn the categories that include alpha skills a shade of white. This will help alphas identify the skill categories they need to be paying attention to, and not click through a bunch of categories that don't have alpha skills
CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#53 - 2016-10-13 15:21:25 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Why do Omega state characters still see all the restrictions, yellow outlines, yellow skill levels, all that stuff? As someone who is subscribed all year round this is highly annoying. As an Omega character I have no business seeing all that stuff and it just gets in the way.

I've been pretty vocal against having a toggle button for everything in EVE, but in this case I think it's fairly justified. Can we at least get a toggle button so Omega characters can choose if they want to see the visual restrictions in the UI? Or better yet, just remove it completely for Omega characters.

Edit: Whoops, I completely missed the part about SISI being locked in Alpha state. My bad. Can I assume that the yellow UI elements will be (largely) absent from the Omega UI?


We have reviewed some of them, but at the same time we do want to show some of them.

So we are removing the yellow from skills when omega, but we will keep the border on items.

I understand your concerns, so I am going to say please wait till Friday 14th end of business and we should have the ability for you to be able to change states and see all this for yourself.

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#54 - 2016-10-13 15:22:50 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
I'm still not fond of the vertical labels. I would really, really much prefer it to be horizontal, probably akin to something like this (please, don't judge it based on my Photoshop I skills; I'm an author, not an artist). Not only is it easier to read, it also provides more vertical space for the information that really matters (namely, the skills in each group, and your queued skills).

Also, the black slash mark on skills you've trained, but can't use (seen here) clutter the boxes up. Considering those skills are already differentiated from other skills using the same gold color that other Omega aspects use, you can probably safely do away with the black slash to make the list less busy.


Both of these have been reviewed due to player feedback and should be altered with the next sisi update.

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

Jesse Edwin Davis
Doomheim
#55 - 2016-10-13 15:30:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jesse Edwin Davis
CCP Claymore wrote:
We look forward to hearing from you.

Everything is awful. So, please - just don't do it. Thanks.

Echo Degnar wrote:
Dear CCP,

Please stop! Discard all UI changes and start over. Involve a designer. Preferably one with UX experience, but consult at least one designer please.

There is nothing constructive to say about this. You chose form over function and it failed. Just try again.

This.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2016-10-13 15:30:09 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
This is terrible. Nevermind that people with dyslexia might run into huge readability problems with it, even I do. Reduced accessability by making things a pain to read is NOT good.


Jesse Edwin Davis wrote:
CCP Claymore wrote:
We look forward to hearing from you.

Everything is awfull. So, please - just don't do it. Thanks.



For some reason they thought Strip-barring the skill ups was also an improvement. No, not really. give me a solid progress back on black background any day. KISS strategies are still very valid.

I've seen people pay hundreds of dollars on some games with what might be considered the worst graphics in the world. Look at dwarf fortress. People enjoy the crap out of that game and it's visuals are TEXT based!

Please, CCP, if you want to make things better, look into updating or rolling back your main website (this will actually get people interested in the game instead of a big BUY HERE button!), look into UI design and actually draw mockups that you crowd souyrce with your players first.

All you have to do is discuss your plan beforehand to get feedback, before wasting time building it and then being angry that people hate it and feeling like you wasted your time and effort.

https://tips.pope.tech/5-ways-to-ruin-your-website/

http://blog.teamtreehouse.com/10-user-interface-design-fundamentals

Designing a "hip, cool, newbro" like Joe Camel can go wrong in so many ways.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Martin Vanzyl
EVE University
Ivy League
#57 - 2016-10-13 15:32:46 UTC
The UI of EVE was something as a newbro I had to spend quite a bit of time to get used to.

I feel sorry for the newbros coming in November... and I can imagine the coming headaches I'm going to experience trying to teach those newbros with this UI. If this is what they/we are confronted with.

As an example... the ship skill requirement list attached to each ship... its ... a mess, a dog's breakfast. There is nothing I'm sure of - after more than ten minutes of staring at it. I see a competing mess of diagonal striped gold blocks, bordered blue blocks, full white blocks and dots... and ticks on the left.

I echo the call for this UI to put on hold or at least that these obnoxious unnecessary 'reinvention of the wheel' changes are necessary.

In the Ship Skill requirement list, keep the current one we have on Tranquility, put the simple Omega symbol next to the ship (if its only meant to be flown by the Omega), then implement mouse-over pop ups on each skill that give the relevant Alpha vs Omega info.

In addition with regards to the vertical text... seriously, we like our spreadsheets to work out stuff, and they' sometimes have 90 degree vertical words for headings, but NOT IN EVE. Any Western, European, African human being who is literate, naturally reads left to right, on a horizontal plane.

Please listen to us on this, CCP. I don't want to see this great game relegated to the F2P trash category because of this 'in your face you must pay to be awesome' UI at every turn.



13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2016-10-13 15:35:32 UTC
Martin Vanzyl wrote:
The UI of EVE was something as a newbro I had to spend quite a bit of time to get used to.

I feel sorry for the newbros coming in November... and I can imagine the coming headaches I'm going to experience trying to teach those newbros with this UI. If this is what they/we are confronted with.

As an example... the ship skill requirement list attached to each ship... its ... a mess, a dog's breakfast. There is nothing I'm sure of - after more than ten minutes of staring at it. I see a competing mess of diagonal striped gold blocks, bordered blue blocks, full white blocks and dots... and ticks on the left.

I echo the call for this UI to put on hold or at least that these obnoxious unnecessary 'reinvention of the wheel' changes are necessary.

In the Ship Skill requirement list, keep the current one we have on Tranquility, put the simple Omega symbol next to the ship (if its only meant to be flown by the Omega), then implement mouse-over pop ups on each skill that give the relevant Alpha vs Omega info.

In addition with regards to the vertical text... seriously, we like our spreadsheets to work out stuff, and they' sometimes have 90 degree vertical words for headings, but NOT IN EVE. Any Western, European, African human being who is literate, naturally reads left to right, on a horizontal plane.

Please listen to us on this, CCP. I don't want to see this great game relegated to the F2P trash category because of this 'in your face you must pay to be awesome' UI at every turn.






When I first joined in the mid 2000s, I loved the UI's easy accessibility.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Soleil Fournier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2016-10-13 15:39:48 UTC
Strongly agree that the TQ version of the 'requirements' tab is more pleasing than the new version.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#60 - 2016-10-13 15:41:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Winter Archipelago
CCP Claymore wrote:
Duke Garland wrote:

Or just do it sideways which is (I know I've said it before) far more natural to read and also fits a LOT better with the rest of the UI - here's hoping you don't plan more of that verticalism. While I enjoy that on my spaceships I'm *not* japanese and as such favor reading my UI teXt in a horizontal manner: http://i.imgur.com/PHR46Ux.png


Horizontal update incoming, we have it internally, just need to see when we push to sisi.

One big concern I have with this is that it's still using up a lot of vertical space for something that's a fairly minor element when compared to the actual content of the skills themselves, and the skill queue especially. It's easier to read than the vertical text, but the skills and skill queue are still going to be squished.

We can't even make the category window smaller, so if we want to have more room with the skills themselves and the skill queue, we'll be dragging their windows up and down as we need to go between them.

Edit ::

CCP Claymore wrote:
Winter Archipelago wrote:
I'm still not fond of the vertical labels. I would really, really much prefer it to be horizontal, probably akin to something like this (please, don't judge it based on my Photoshop I skills; I'm an author, not an artist). Not only is it easier to read, it also provides more vertical space for the information that really matters (namely, the skills in each group, and your queued skills).

Also, the black slash mark on skills you've trained, but can't use (seen here) clutter the boxes up. Considering those skills are already differentiated from other skills using the same gold color that other Omega aspects use, you can probably safely do away with the black slash to make the list less busy.


Both of these have been reviewed due to player feedback and should be altered with the next sisi update.


I'm not sure what to believe now. I suppose I'll wait for the next update to see where it's going. Thank you for considering alternatives to the vertical text, though!