EVE General Discussion

NOTE: People in the know would know that I've been a huge fan of IWI, so you may read this with prejudice you had against IWI, I can understand that. But I shall put aside my love for IWI and feelings at what was done to it by CCP, and put back on my social theory academic hat back on to write this, which I haven't done for long time since I left academia in last decade.

EVE, as a space sand box, started with, and still has, very primitive model of sociall framework (I'm using this term in bigger sense that goes beyond 'economics').

There are resources in space that people can produce from, or earn ISK directly through bounties (still the biggest ISK faucet IIRC). The scarcity of resources and their value is balanced game mechanic wise with philosophy that favours higher risk higher reward game design model.

This, is the basic concept behind EVE game world. That there is various geopolitical factors and mechanics set as a frame within which valuable resources and ISK making possibilities are scattered around, in a way that promotes player cooperation and conflcts.

This sounds nice and good, and it was.

But at some stage during EVE world's evolution to this point, players, as people of the CCP created game world, have moved on to next phase of society. There are some differences from RL social theories and game world, of course, but broadly and very generally speaking, this was a transition from modernity to post-modernity. There's whole library worth of literature on post-modernity and many people have different views on this matter, so I won't go into defining that in too academic way as that is not the focal point here.

What I meant by with player influenced evolution to the post-modern New Eden, was that people have accumulated enough wealth, knowledge, experience, and built meta gaming models and paradigms, where groups of people could make living off ISK alone, and use that ISK to drive the traditional power games of EVE.

Call it financial engineering, or creative economy, but what happened was that the resources in space became no longer relevant. Not only that, what happened within that space was also irrelevant.

People could build power and economy without holding null SOV or dominating a particular region. People have transcended the geo-political landscape of New Eden. People have grown out of CCP's original game design with its focus on spaceships.

Those people, in my view, turned EVE into real sandbox game. Where you were no longer even bound by the very basic and naive assumption that EVE is space ships game and forgot that its original vision was to be a sci-fi simulation/sandbox.

With Incarna disaster, which so much wasn't a disaster in my opinion, CCP dropped the grand vision of sand box. People wanted space ships. They got them. More and more development focus has been paid onto flying and fighting and harvesting in space ships, completely oblivious to the fact that rather significant portion of the player base has moved onto another level of operation more associated with post-modernity. The abstract engineering and paradigm leading movements that freed these people from having to undock or be in space.

In my view. That made EVE great. That you can play the game without logging in with the client. That you can play the game without undocking. That you can play the game hardcore while having no SP. That you don't have to have manual piloting skills to have impact in the game.

People were free, at least some portion of the populace, while the rest grinded their way through ancient means of harvesting resources and earning bounties by shooting rats in space. These people who found the freedom away from the space ships and CCP limitation of the game design, to me, they were leaders. The people who never undock in space ships but make things happen in game world, to impact the game from plotting and influencing, to be untouchable in what seemed to be a very primitive space by then.

Then came yesterday's ban hammer on IWI/EVE Casino and all that. I raged about it, but that's not the point here. My point, at least for this post, is not about whether CCP action was good or bad or RMT and gambling and all that stuff people keep going on about without seeing the main issue.

This is clear indication to me that CCP wants EVE to go back to its primitive stage, to retreat back to their conservative focus on spaceship contents, the total admission of the failure to live up to and make progress on the sandbox vision that appealed to many people.

They want people in space. Shooting rats. Shooting each other. Shooting structures. They want more and more people in the space. Doing ancient resource gathering and conflicts cliche that mankind have done for so long.

When they failed with Incarna and gave in to player complaints, CCP lost something special. They clearly stated that they will focus on space ships, and that EVE is a space ships game.

This appealed to many people, but I was sad back then, and even sadder now.

This is not a sandbox, when CCP forcefully regressed the game world back to modernity state when some people have already transcended that game design limitations.

I'm sure there will be lots of fun stuff to come. If not gambling, there will be other means. But what saddens me today is that CCP now really does seem determined to limit the EVE experience to in game and in space actions.

PvP is something I enjoyed very much in my eve career, although I haven't done much of it recently. But to me, it was the whole package of EVE as a sandbox that appealed to me for so many years.

Now, little bit of that sandbox element has died again. And CCP wants us to labour in their in game space. That, is social regression for me.


Toobo.

Surely, it will feel shallower without all those shenanigans that made EVE catching so much attention from players around the world.

lulz, posting in a stealth WiS thread.

"In my view. That made EVE great. That you can play the game without logging in with the client. That you can play the game without undocking. That you can play the game hardcore while having no SP. That you don't have to have manual piloting skills to have impact in the game."

You still can do all those things. You just dont need to log in, and deposit your isk into someone elses corp to have it spun on an RNG to win back more space pixels anymore.

not empty quoting

Bingo, anyone even pretending to be up on current affairs would have seen this coming a mile off

You're still here? Go away already.

Gambling should have been axed long time ago with all the degenerates that profited/RMT'd off it. Sounds like that includes you.

Go forth from this point, my fellow players, and teach our newbros of the hubris of RMT. Let the lesson of the smiting done this day be a warning to all lest the ban hammer be swung in thy general direction.

1. I hate the term 'social science'. Having spent about a decade in academia in this field, as a student, researcher and teaching undergraduates, I still insist that social 'science' is a machinery derived from modern academic industry so that people can give value to their valueless words by using industrial standard while relying on the power hegemony based on tyranny of 'logic' and 'facts', with distinct and oppressive abuse of power to those who oppose such machinery.

2. I freely admit my gambling addiction. I even wrote a forum post about it on Out of Pod Experiencr. In my teenage and twenties, I suffered heavy consequences of RL gambling addiction and substance abuse. But I always maintained people have freedom to destory themselves, the true right to ruin themselves in a society we are born into without choice and in the modern culture of emphasis on progress and prosperity.

3. I have been aware of other current issues such as CS:GO. Where I failed was that I was too naive to believe in dark dystopian heme of EVE philosophy. I admit I was naive and wrong to believe this will persist. I was saddened but also fascinated with people selling all their assets and draining SP and selling toons to gamble themselves to the point of no return. That you can lose absolutely everything including SP and toons you hold dear because of the vice you couldn't cut yourself off from. This, to me, was fantastic in its own unique way.

I can appreciate that gambling is bad, and has RL legal issues and stigma tied to it. And when some people RMTed through it, they crossed the line and put themselves into territory where you cannot justify it as role play anymore. That is sad and the ruining moment that brought the end to something horribly beautiful.

So I can appreciate many comments here sincerely. But for me, EVE died a little as the ultimate sandbox game I wanted it to be.

Let me break it down to you in the simplest of terms to offset your agonizing text wall.

CCP is, first and foremost, a for-profit company. They have to protect their interests first and the players' second. If they don't do this, they stand to lose everything no matter how popular they are. Gambling websites constitute a legal grey area that can cause some substantial issues for game developers. The simplest and easiest way to address the potential issues is just a blanket ban on the sites, thereby heading off any potential legal trouble before it happens. Everything else that you posted regarding social regression is an almost obscene level of overthink and sophistry. It's really quite simple. CCP doesn't want to get sued or have their product banned in areas where gambling is illegal, therefore cut out the gambling element. No eloquent, if fallacious, arguments will change their minds. If you want CCP to reverse this ban, then figure out a way for them to allow gambling sites while simultaneously ensuring that they won't be abused for things like RMT or bypassing regional gambling laws. This proposal must also not take up too many resources that CCP could be using for better purposes. If you can do that, float it by CCP and see if they'll work with you. Otherwise, deal with it and stop trying to guilt CCP into reversing their decision.