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[news] Theology Council Issues Advisory Exhortation on Status of Clone

Author
Mitara Newelle
Newelle Family
#81 - 2016-10-12 19:45:12 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
You know exactly what I'm implying, Lady Newelle.

Then why not just come out and say it? You're not bothering to filter your thoughts on much else here lately.

Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Alizebeth Amalath
Doomheim
#82 - 2016-10-12 19:47:24 UTC
Lord Newelle:
The Advisory Opinion of the Supreme Sobor did not give you a soul where you had no one before; it simply recognized what already existed. God created humans to have souls, and our understanding of Him is such that we know clones have souls as well. Neither the Empress nor the Theology Council have the power to give a soul to that which does not.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#83 - 2016-10-12 19:52:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:

You're a liar, Arrendis, and I do not respect that. You do not care about Amarr theology, the sanctity of the Empress - Theology Council relationship, or the truth about the state of a clone's soul. You care about getting your way, and your way is leisurely watching the Empire made weaker by what you see as foolish dogma, then shaking the base of Amarr power when they go rescind those dogmas by calling them self-interested and lacking in divine purpose.


I dated Del'thul, Aldrith. I'm not her. I don't want to see your Empire burn. I don't want to see your children put at risk. I don't want to see my kin endangered. I've never said I care about the sanctity of the Empress. I care about my friends, and I get annoyed by hypocrisy. That's it. That's all I've said. I'm curious about Amarr theology, and interested in it as an academic matter, but I've never claimed to be seeking something to believe in or otherwise invested in it. You want to call me a liar, maybe you should fecking come up with an actual lie.

Quote:

The exhortation confirms what has already been an obvious truth to most people in the Empire, and the cluster at large. Clones are people. Even if it is a crass political move, (which is not possible because ALL moves made by the Empress are God's will, advantageous to herself or not) I do not give a single damn. The state of my family, my corporation, and my Empire are made better for it. I get to have a soul. My children are not the products of abominations. My alliance is a recognized body of faithful warriors, and now my Empire gets to accept more of those warriors to fight on her behalf and better compete in the changing arena of warfare. The fact that you utterly fail to mention any of this until your motives are questioned is telling.


And there's the essence of your real objection here: you know I'm right, and the idea that the Empress and the Theology Council can make a move grounded in expedience and realpolitik threatens your faith. Is it so weak as to believe that a God that can create all of existence can't make crass political calculus serve his ends?

And yes, you get to have a soul, if you believe in one. They never had the ability to take it from you. Either they are right, or they are wrong. If they are right, you always had a soul. If they're wrong, you still don't have one. You don't 'get' to have a soul. Either you do, or you don't, and since they cannot now, and never could actually prove that you don't, if you want one, claim one! Mittens' Kittens, boy, don't act like a whipped cur for their pleasure. If you're a man, be a damned man. Stand on your own, without worrying about the approval of some bunch of dried up birth canals and follicle-depleted scalps.

Quote:
Honestly, how hard is it for you people to keep your damn mouths shut?!


How hard is it for you to accept responsibility for your own life, your own faith, and your own understanding of your God, instead of insisting on your right to remain a child, forever coddled and directed by mommy and daddy on the Council?
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#84 - 2016-10-12 19:53:22 UTC
That is what I wished to convey, Mother Alamath, but you are correct that I did not succeed in that. My apologies, I will edit accordingly.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#85 - 2016-10-12 19:58:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
As for any potential talk of Khanid not being pure, let the inquisitors figure that out. Honestly, how hard is it for you people to keep your damn mouths shut?!


The inquisitors? What power has the Inquisition ever had over the Kingdom? I mean, okay, the Theology Council struck Khanid from the Book of Records and Emperor Heideran declared war on him. That seemed to do a whole lot of good, seeing as he's now back in the Empire, with all the rights and none of the responsibilities since his precious kingdom keeps on getting special exemptions for its heresies. He was allowed to compete in the Succession Trials and nearly became Emperor of Amarr (the only heir to ever get two chances!). Think about that. Think about what would have happened if Garkeh Khanid, the single biggest traitor to Amarr, had become emperor. And if he's doing what everyone knows he's doing, then he's going to try again, and again, and again, until he wins.

It is time we stop trying to whitewash failings and instead correct them. The devil is competing for the crown, and the only thing we seem to be worried about is the impropriety of calling him the devil.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#86 - 2016-10-12 20:03:46 UTC
This isn't about mistakes, it's about knowing your place. All sins are revealed in time, and all wrongs are corrected. But not by us, not until they are ready to be.

If you still care to listen to reason I have something to share with you, but I will not speak here any longer. I grow tired of the feeble minds and arguments that fail to recognize how things truly work in the Empire.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Alizebeth Amalath
Doomheim
#87 - 2016-10-12 20:08:57 UTC
I would look to the late Lord Kor-Azor for an example. Should the people he wronged not have spoken against him? Should they have kept their place, because he was the Emperor's son and an heir?

NO!

It is only by the cries of the faithful that Lord Kor-Azor was brought back into the faithful. Without those that he wronged speaking out, bearing witness did the Speakers of Truth investigate, judge, punish, and ultimately help redeem him. We should look to their example and give voice to the wrong, so long as it is respectful and proper, so that it may be corrected and the wayward child brought back into the flock.
Mitara Newelle
Newelle Family
#88 - 2016-10-12 20:10:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mitara Newelle
Samira Kernher wrote:
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
As for any potential talk of Khanid not being pure, let the inquisitors figure that out. Honestly, how hard is it for you people to keep your damn mouths shut?!


The inquisitors? What power has the Inquisition ever had over the Kingdom? I mean, okay, the Theology Council struck Khanid from the Book of Records and Emperor Heideran declared war on him. That seemed to do a whole lot of good, seeing as he's now back in the Empire, with all the rights and none of the responsibilities since his precious kingdom keeps on getting special exemptions for its heresies. He was allowed to compete in the Succession Trials and nearly became Emperor of Amarr (the only heir to ever get two chances!). Think about that. Think about what would have happened if Garkeh Khanid, the single biggest traitor to Amarr, had become emperor. And if he's doing what everyone knows he's doing, then he's going to try again, and again, and again, until he wins.

It is time we stop trying to whitewash failings and instead correct them. The devil is competing for the crown, and the only thing we seem to be worried about is the impropriety of calling him the devil.


You keep saying 'He' as if Garkeh Khanid was still with us. I highly, highly suggest you change your line of speaking lest Grand Inquisitor Ohrud Omel feel the need to make his presence known.

Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#89 - 2016-10-12 20:15:25 UTC
Let us just all calm down and meet-in person for our next exchange. I think that would be most helpful.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Alizebeth Amalath
Doomheim
#90 - 2016-10-12 20:17:32 UTC
I'll have the drinks. My office in Safizon tonight?
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2016-10-12 20:18:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
The desperate fervor and uncertainty this announcement has inspired in the enemies of the Empire and those who lack faith is only further proof that this decision is the right one.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Arrendis
TK Corp
#92 - 2016-10-12 20:32:39 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Let us just all calm down and meet-in person for our next exchange. I think that would be most helpful.

Alizebeth Amalath wrote:
I'll have the drinks. My office in Safizon tonight?


Eh, sure, why not? I can bring a jug of Hug Juice. Sami, you comin'? Free booze!
Alizebeth Amalath
Doomheim
#93 - 2016-10-12 20:37:33 UTC
I look forward to seeing you there, Ms. Arrendis. No need to bring anything.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#94 - 2016-10-12 20:46:26 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Arrendis is spot on.

If Amarr does not uphold the principles of the faith, then we do not deserve our Empire. Better to collapse than to continue in sin. Stability for stability's sake is worth nothing.

The choice to allow Khanid to return to the Empire and to participate in the Succession Trials (for a second time) did much to erode the confidence many people once had in those who are supposed to be our betters. That decision now taints all forthcoming decisions like this Exhortation.

History can tell us many stories, one of those stories could be about a certain family legacy. Legacy that brought us a group who paint their ships ebony and steel blue, legacy that still have a postament in Shastal system.

So unless certain servant of God is implying that old mistakes should be remembered no matter what and that now to be pious family should be stripped from everything, the devoted servant of God should stop. Obviously not for own sake, but because it's a disgrace to servant's family and to Lord that this servant made a pledge of loyalty.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#95 - 2016-10-12 20:57:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
We cast out our sinners, and have paid for their transgressions. We don't welcome them back to the table or give them the heirdom.

And we absolutely should remember it, so that we don't fall prey to repeating the same mistakes.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#96 - 2016-10-12 21:14:05 UTC
Let this be the official Nauplius position —

  • Capsuleers do indeed have souls, one soul which follows the body from clone to clone until final death.
  • Cloning is immoral transhumanism and ought to be abolished.
  • Nonetheless, to abandon cloning by all of the Chosen People of God at this time would be a sort of "unilateral disarmament" that would be guilty of the sin of "tempting God"; therefore, the abolishing of cloning will have to await the Reclaiming of all the Cluster.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2016-10-12 21:18:07 UTC
The welcome back to the light was for the Khanid, not for Khanid. I think you are making Garkeh larger than he was by demonizing him so. All of the economic and military might of the kingdom, all its people, and all its systems and worlds now belong again to the Throne.

One degenerate King who died anyway is a small price to pay.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#98 - 2016-10-12 22:17:45 UTC
As if it would rescue them from inevitable fall.

Its abvious these people will try to break up all rules in empire.

Katiz is only sticking her bum out to harsh treatment from them.
Loai Qerl
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#99 - 2016-10-13 01:39:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Loai Qerl
I'm.....troubled, a little.

King Khanid II, rest he in light and peace, no matter what else he did, brought us back to the fold and gave us the chance to rejoice fully again in our trillions of sisters and brothers in faith. I don't think anyone who hasn't been a lifelong Kingdom citizen can understand the little ways that separation affects someone. There are a lot of us--Khanid, I mean. Who here can claim to have helped so many back to the door that opens once?

He was complicated. I won't argue it. I hope you won't argue it with me. But he was ours, he was truly ours, and when he died I hope he was able to imagine half the gratitude we owed him for making Ours mean Khanid and Amarr both. I was born into a time of fear, when no one could be sure if that would be true again. Now we are sure. I will NEVER stop being grateful, both to His Former Majesty and to the Empress, long may she reign in splendor.

God bless us ALL with the ability to turn the mistakes we make into a benediction, as he did.

...please stop being horrible about him.
Garion Avarr
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#100 - 2016-10-13 03:22:23 UTC
This news gladdens my heart.

Not for my ow sake -- these words do not change the facts of if I have a soul or not, of course. If one believes, as I do, that the Theology Council has after much study become certain of the truth of this matter, then it was always true, even when they were not certain. If you are of a more cynical outlook and view this as pandering, then what they say still does not make it either true or false.

No. I have a soul, I have always had a soul, and that is simply being acknowledged. It does not, in the end, change anything for me personally.

But what it does do is remove a great burden, a great sense of awkwardness, from our relatives who may have wondered if we were still who we were when they knew us as children. A question of if the person they has known had already died, and if we were simply a hollow copy of that being, bereft of the soul that had made us who we were. But now the Theology Council has spoken, and a great doubt can be lifted from the minds of our relatives.

That is the great gift in this pronouncement.