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Dev Blog: EULA Changes Coming With EVE Online: Ascension

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Lyra Everstar
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#341 - 2016-10-12 23:59:04 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Lyra Everstar wrote:


Ok, I'll answer all your points in order
1. Even if it is a lure, you're still sending off money with a chance of getting some back even if the odds are stacked against you, or even if the scammer is just feeling generous, if they ban all games of chance, they have to ban anything that appears to violate the EULA e.g. if I started spamming Jita offering DDOS services, I would get banned, even if I was only scamming people.

2. see above point.

3. I think it was partly due to the outsized influence that gambling sites were having on the economy....

@Ralph King-Griffin, can you imagine the outcry if CCP actually banned someone on the grounds that there was no skill in PVP, and it was therefore a game of chance?

I think you're misunderstanding what's defined as a game of chance here.

"A game of chance is a game whose outcome is strongly influenced by some randomizing device, and upon which contestants may choose to wager money or anything of monetary value. Common devices used include dice, spinning tops, playing cards, roulette wheels, or numbered balls drawn from a container. A game of chance may have some skill element to it, however, chance generally plays a greater role in determining the outcome than skill. A game of skill, on the other hand, also has an element of chance, but with skill playing a greater role in determining the outcome"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_chance

My lying to you about doubling the isk you send me isn't covered by that.

PvP is quite literally irrelevant to this conversation.


1. I do understand what a game of chance is, and I acknowledge that under most definitions, this isn't one. But the following are true: they are advertising it as a game of chance (ignoring those 'if you meet the rules in my bio.....') and that they do payout in ways that can appear random to newer players. To make the point more explicit if I started spamming Jita local with 'DDOS for for hire, 500m isk to DC anyone' would I get banned, even if I was only scamming? The answer, is yes. I know DDOS is a far more serious crime than running a lottery, but the principle is the same, I would be offering a (fake) service that violate the EULA agreement, in order to try and play a confidence trick.

2. even if they are lying, they're 'normalising' lotteries, which could leave CCP in legal hot water if some legit ones spring up. And besides how can CCP guarantee that the scammers weren't using some sort of RNG generator running at a 1/million probability of a payout?

3. you were talking about how PVP tourneys could be considered gambling.


Finally, the contract is between you (first party) and CCP (second party), everyone else, including other players, is the third party. If you accept the logic other players are also a party to the contract, then you could theoretically set up a casino in game, hiring other players (for isk) and run a casino in which people send you isk, a random number you feed it into an RNG generator, and pick a winner minus a cut. Which completely ruins the ban CCP are trying to implement.
Ruddger
Vande-lay Industries
#342 - 2016-10-13 00:01:10 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Ruddger wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Do you put your own pants on or did someone help you getting them on your head?

No, three cups is not a game of chance, read the damn Definition I linked.



Nothing in your definition makes this not a game of chance. The randomization is from the mixing of the cups, you know...like hand shuffling cards....


It doesnt have to be a literal "device"

Except that the suspiciously charismatic lad that hand is attached to happens to know exactly where it is.
Making it a game of skill, namely the life skill of not handing your money to suspiciously charismatic lads.




that isn't how it works... the "shell game" can be played in a legit manner. Just because you can cheat at it, doesnt mean you are or have. If your assertion was true, no game of chance that you can cheat at would ever be a game of chance.



Logic man, try it
Ruddger
Vande-lay Industries
#343 - 2016-10-13 00:02:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruddger
Quote:


Finally, the contract is between you (first party) and CCP (second party), everyone else, including other players, is the third party. If you accept the logic other players are also a party to the contract, then you could theoretically set up a casino in game, hiring other players (for isk) and run a casino in which people send you isk, a random number you feed it into an RNG generator, and pick a winner minus a cut. Which completely ruins the ban CCP are trying to implement.




AND BINGO WAS HIS NAME-OH
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#344 - 2016-10-13 00:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#345 - 2016-10-13 00:04:52 UTC
Lyra Everstar wrote:
Finally, the contract is between you (first party) and CCP (second party), everyone else, including other players, is the third party.


No.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#346 - 2016-10-13 00:09:35 UTC
To be clear, CCP has never used the term "third party" (that I know of) to refer to 3 players engaging transactions.

They use third party for things like out of game comms, apps players develop to help other players such as Red Frog's website, and up until the 8th of November gambling sites.

We players used the term "third party" for people like Chribba, et. al. We talk about Player 1 (the seller) being the first party, Player 2 (the buyer) being the second party, with somebody like Chribba being the third party.

But from CCP's vantage point they are all first party.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Giaus Felix
Doomheim
#347 - 2016-10-13 00:09:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Giaus Felix
Games of chance are being prohibited, as far as I can see scams are not.

Why do the internet lawyers always try to find a loophole?

I came for the spaceships, I stayed for the tears.
James Zealot
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#348 - 2016-10-13 00:11:46 UTC  |  Edited by: James Zealot
All I want to know is if I can run lotteries in game for my alliance or Corp or w/e IN GAME? It does say third party. To much IWI bs through these pages for me to read through to get to if anyone has seen an answer to my question.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#349 - 2016-10-13 00:14:16 UTC
James Zealot wrote:
All I want to know is if I can run lotteries in game for my alliance or Corp or w/e IN GAME? It does say third party. To much IWI bs through these pages for me to read through to get to if anyone has seen an answer to my question.


I am going to guess, yes. So long as it is in-game.

I would submit a petition though to get some clarification.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
SkepticNerdGuy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#350 - 2016-10-13 00:14:21 UTC
Given that the new EULA states that in game items may not be assigned for "game of chance" operated by a third party, I am curious to know if a live stream (such as twitch) may facilitate giveaways to their viewers so long as the giveaway is not limited to subscribers only. The service is considered a "third party" but the "game of chance" implies that a wager of monetary value must be placed. So the question I have is, Can we do giveaways on our streams to eve players of in game currency/items that are in our audience. So long as we don't limit it to any specific group?
Tavin Aikisen
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#351 - 2016-10-13 00:14:42 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Tavin Aikisen wrote:
That's a bit stiff, isn't it? Introducing new terms and immediately banning people without any grace period to allow them to lawfully cease and desist?

Train reading comprehension to 1.


Before you try being funny, the article never explicitly mentioned a breach of future or current rules. Hence my question, note the '?', which was questioning if they had been banned without a grace period, as this wasn't particularly clear?

Source: http://massivelyop.com/2016/10/12/ccp-outlaws-gambling-in-eve-online-bans-rmt-organizations/

Quote:
In conjunction with the ban on gambling, CCP says, it’s shut down two gambling organizations


Which according to the same article, hadn't come into effect yet.

"Remember this. Trust your eyes, you will kill each other. Trust your veins, you can all go home."

-Cold Wind
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#352 - 2016-10-13 00:16:24 UTC
Lyra Everstar wrote:
1. I do understand what a game of chance is, and I acknowledge that under most definitions, this isn't one. But the following are true: they are advertising it as a game of chance (ignoring those 'if you meet the rules in my bio.....') and that they do payout in ways that can appear random to newer players. To make the point more explicit if I started spamming Jita local with 'DDOS for for hire, 500m isk to DC anyone' would I get banned, even if I was only scamming? The answer, is yes. I know DDOS is a far more serious crime than running a lottery, but the principle is the same, I would be offering a (fake) service that violate the EULA agreement, in order to try and play a confidence trick.

2. even if they are lying, they're 'normalising' lotteries, which could leave CCP in legal hot water if some legit ones spring up. And besides how can CCP guarantee that the scammers weren't using some sort of RNG generator running at a 1/million probability of a payout?

3. you were talking about how PVP tourneys could be considered gambling.


Finally, the contract is between you (first party) and CCP (second party), everyone else, including other players, is the third party. If you accept the logic other players are also a party to the contract, then you could theoretically set up a casino in game, hiring other players (for isk) and run a casino in which people send you isk, a random number you feed it into an RNG generator, and pick a winner minus a cut. Which completely ruins the ban CCP are trying to implement.

1) Normally no, they're not advertising it as a game of chance. Instead it's presented typically as a certainty of return so long as you "follow the rules." I've yet to see a doubler actually advertise a chance based service.

2) No, since they're not offering lotteries they can't be normalizing them.

3) Yes, one can gamble on the outcome, but that doesn't actually relate to the argument of games of chance. Also, if we're looking at technicalities here, in game actions and events are ultimately 1st party operated (by CCP). Since the game isn't operated by a 3rd party then any actual chance based outcomes resulting from that are in.

ECM lives to see another day even.
Ruddger
Vande-lay Industries
#353 - 2016-10-13 00:17:10 UTC
James Zealot wrote:
All I want to know is if I can run lotteries in game for my alliance or Corp or w/e IN GAME? It does say third party. To much IWI bs through these pages for me to read through to get to if anyone has seen an answer to my question.




Certainly appears to be a big resounding "No" not if you're using any out of game mechanic to decide winner, like a set of dice, or a real number generator.
Lyra Everstar
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#354 - 2016-10-13 00:17:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyra Everstar
Ah re read the top of the licence agreement, CCP states in the top of it, that they only care about ex-game things. But the wording of the EULA does give them ammunition to ban in game lotteries at will.

Side note: reading the EULA, they've increased the age limit from 13 to 'adult', so they might be trying to allow gambling that way.

edit: from what I can tell, so long as it's run from in game, you can run the lottery, and then draw the winner's name (on paper) out of a (physical) hat. In practice, I can't see CCP drawing a distinction between this and Random.org. Side note, you until November to run the lottery even if this interpretation is wrong.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#355 - 2016-10-13 00:20:39 UTC
SkepticNerdGuy wrote:
Given that the new EULA states that in game items may not be assigned for "game of chance" operated by a third party, I am curious to know if a live stream (such as twitch) may facilitate giveaways to their viewers so long as the giveaway is not limited to subscribers only. The service is considered a "third party" but the "game of chance" implies that a wager of monetary value must be placed. So the question I have is, Can we do giveaways on our streams to eve players of in game currency/items that are in our audience. So long as we don't limit it to any specific group?


If the give away is a random give away--i.e. you take no ISK or anything else...I'm thinking it would be okay. But CCP will likely not respond here, submit a petition and see what the response is.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ruddger
Vande-lay Industries
#356 - 2016-10-13 00:22:09 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
SkepticNerdGuy wrote:
Given that the new EULA states that in game items may not be assigned for "game of chance" operated by a third party, I am curious to know if a live stream (such as twitch) may facilitate giveaways to their viewers so long as the giveaway is not limited to subscribers only. The service is considered a "third party" but the "game of chance" implies that a wager of monetary value must be placed. So the question I have is, Can we do giveaways on our streams to eve players of in game currency/items that are in our audience. So long as we don't limit it to any specific group?


If the give away is a random give away--i.e. you take no ISK or anything else...I'm thinking it would be okay. But CCP will likely not respond here, submit a petition and see what the response is.



Petitions asking about anything related to this change are being auto closed and told to go to the dev post for more info
Lyra Everstar
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#357 - 2016-10-13 00:22:10 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
SkepticNerdGuy wrote:
Given that the new EULA states that in game items may not be assigned for "game of chance" operated by a third party, I am curious to know if a live stream (such as twitch) may facilitate giveaways to their viewers so long as the giveaway is not limited to subscribers only. The service is considered a "third party" but the "game of chance" implies that a wager of monetary value must be placed. So the question I have is, Can we do giveaways on our streams to eve players of in game currency/items that are in our audience. So long as we don't limit it to any specific group?


If the give away is a random give away--i.e. you take no ISK or anything else...I'm thinking it would be okay. But CCP will likely not respond here, submit a petition and see what the response is.

They do say in the dev blog they'll respond to questions in this thread.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#358 - 2016-10-13 00:23:25 UTC
Tavin Aikisen wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Tavin Aikisen wrote:
That's a bit stiff, isn't it? Introducing new terms and immediately banning people without any grace period to allow them to lawfully cease and desist?

Train reading comprehension to 1.


Before you try being funny, the article never explicitly mentioned a breach of future or current rules. Hence my question, note the '?', which was questioning if they had been banned without a grace period, as this wasn't particularly clear?

Source: http://massivelyop.com/2016/10/12/ccp-outlaws-gambling-in-eve-online-bans-rmt-organizations/

Quote:
In conjunction with the ban on gambling, CCP says, it’s shut down two gambling organizations


Which according to the same article, hadn't come into effect yet.


Read the DevBlog, IWI and EVE Casino were shut down for RMT and violating the third party EULA, respectively.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#359 - 2016-10-13 00:24:31 UTC
Lyra Everstar wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
SkepticNerdGuy wrote:
Given that the new EULA states that in game items may not be assigned for "game of chance" operated by a third party, I am curious to know if a live stream (such as twitch) may facilitate giveaways to their viewers so long as the giveaway is not limited to subscribers only. The service is considered a "third party" but the "game of chance" implies that a wager of monetary value must be placed. So the question I have is, Can we do giveaways on our streams to eve players of in game currency/items that are in our audience. So long as we don't limit it to any specific group?


If the give away is a random give away--i.e. you take no ISK or anything else...I'm thinking it would be okay. But CCP will likely not respond here, submit a petition and see what the response is.

They do say in the dev blog they'll respond to questions in this thread.


Yeah, well then you better start spamming or go to Reddit then.

Dev posts here are about as common as sightings of Bigfoot.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#360 - 2016-10-13 00:29:45 UTC
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/5742vq/dev_blog_end_user_license_agreement_changes/

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online